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This new storm of controversy and Blunder has got me thinking. Why has GW lasted so long? Why has privateer press failed to capitilise on the increasing horde of disillusioned fans?

So for this reason i suggest to dakka that together we list the elements that have made GW so huge and bloated on our money and what they did wrong so other Companies can take note and Possibly make the perfect Wargame/business.

I shall start things off with things i feel GW has done right over the years/what has helped them become so huge.

Early adoption of Multi part plastic kits: Boxsets like the MK1 Rhino, original Ork warbike, Chaos warriors and Catachans we're one of the key factors in GW's success, at the time of their release they offered characterful models with great scope for customisation for less than 'proper' scale model companies. (Worth noting that nowadays a 'proper' tank kit is nearly half the price of a Leman russ.)

Hobby!: Rogue trader, the 2nd edition 40k rulebook, the much loved 'how to make wargames terrain' and even as late as the inquistor rulebook and codex: cityfight had many ideas and templates for making your own terrain and 'Making Do' with scratchbuilt creations on the tabletop. Leaf through a contemparary white dwarf and you will find out how easy it is to use the slate from the 'Citadel basing Kit'TM ....... Also you won't find any Ork armies with Tonka truck battlewagons etc anymore. They still encourage conversions which is nice and part of the reason they do more business than the uncustomisable Warmahordes/infinity.

Compelling universes: Clearly alot of beardy blokes had a lot of fun discussing the dark future of 40k. The depth of fiction is testament to the amount of love that has went into purely the fiction side of things. Now alot of you might think that the 40k universe is 25 years worth of evolution and refinement but IMO you would be wrong, Rick Priestley's Rogue Trader and Andy Chamber's refinement's did 80% of the work and created that love. Still, the fiction from PP or Corvus Belli just comes across as overly derivative. I would suggest that maybe a Wargame set in Frank Herbert's Dune Universe would be an excellent start.

Creative Firebrands: For the visual side of things GW has two titans on their side: Jes Goodwin and John Blanche. Jes Goodwin is possibly the finest miniature designer in the world (even the way that the dark eldar kits fit together is amazing). John Blanche inspires the less conceptual artist's at GW's disposal with his twisted visions. I know PP has a Figurehead style guy but IIRC correctly he is a rules boffin hence why Warmahordes plays like a dream but IMO comes across as slightly soulless.

Rules Streamlining: Each edition of 40k/fantasy has shown some good decisions in speeding the game up and avoiding confusion. Nowadays the games of 40k and fantasy are easy to follow and satisfying to play. The Introduction of 'true line of sight' in 5th edition is an especially good example of this.

I'm in Australia, i've been screwed by prices for the last 10 years, i think you brits now know. Thank you send help

It's important to listen to the customer base, but take what they say with a grain of salt. Everybody isn't right all the time, and if you try to cater to everyone at once you'll get nowhere.

Privateer Press hasn't taken the whole 40k scene or whatever since it's a very different game. People like the scope of 40k, and Warmachine/Hordes isn't really that same sort of scene. They're competitors in that they're both miniatures wargaming of sorts, but the games themselves are very different. There isn't really a 1:1 comparison I can think of as far as games go that 40k really has a close rivalry with.

Maybe GW have survived so long because, basically, they got there first. They grew so large because there was no real competition to stop them.

Now there are other companies such as PP and Mantic closing in, but the gap is still huge.

I agree that GW need to start listening to customers and treating them with respect, but they haven't had to for so long, that I doubt they'll start anytime soon.

Perkustin wrote:As a Brit i will not be hit so hard as you guys, infact AFAIK i dont think there will be any price hike.

Slightly OT but it is relevant. Sorry to disabuse you of this notion but I have seen it posted a few times now and it needs correcting. The UK is getting a price rise - largely due to the switch to resin (reds8n posted a list of items that were switching and the relevant price rises - there's some shockers in there) but I believe there is also and across the board price rise too. See the following:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=16600006a

This is a great write up I must say. +1

GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

Utter drivel. The key to any good business is to listen to your consumer base. Hence why so many companies run 'Think Customer' type internal campaigns to get their staff engaging and meeting the customer's needs. Of course, listening to your customers and following/acting on their needs is a different kettle of fish.

The only reason GW have been able to operate in a vacuum for so long is because they have had a strong grip on the market. But as the recent furore has demonstrated, even a captive audience has its breaking point.

filbert wrote:
Utter drivel. The key to any good business is to listen to your consumer base. Hence why so many companies run 'Think Customer' type internal campaigns to get their staff engaging and meeting the customer's needs. Of course, listening to your customers and following/acting on their needs is a different kettle of fish.

Uhh no. The key to any good retail business MAY be to listen to your customer base. I agree that listening to the customer base HELPS a business. But acting on what the customer base says is slowed. No one should ever act simply based on what a customer says.

TBQH What do all customers want: At the end of the day, all customers want more. More of anything. Free product is great. It's even better if you pay me to buy your product.

You honestly think businesses should listen to that?

The only reason GW have been able to operate in a vacuum for so long is because they have had a strong grip on the market. But as the recent furore has demonstrated, even a captive audience has its breaking point.

Then break. It is to the business' interest to push the customer base to that point, and to keep the customer base at that breaking point, without actually breaking it.

Kouzuki wrote:

filbert wrote:

TBQH What do all customers want: At the end of the day, all customers want more. More of anything. Free product is great. It's even better if you pay me to buy your product.

You honestly think businesses should listen to that?

No- but if they pretend or take some measures to care they will seem 'personable' and somewhat likeable.

The root truth in all of this is -- Privateer Press is NOT cheaper than GW at all. Their army books are 40-50$ respectively.
Their battle engine vehicles is 85$, they have solo models for 30$? Etc etc.

However the underlying factor between all of this is - we don't hear PP players moan at all. Or at least to the extent as GW price increase.

I think it has to come down to the perceived value of the product, along with the respect towards the company.

I would say that from personal observation PP players are happy to dish out the money (despite it actually being more than GW).
Privateer has been charging some yahoo prices for the past years - yet I've heard less complaints about the company.
Albeit they are smaller than GW, but in terms of consumers buying.. well they are willing.

It also has to come down to the game.. each PP model holds more 'value' in terms of gameplay. But PP has been communicative and respectful to its fanbase.

The only true turnoff I suppose is that PP games are... not in the 40k-like universe.

Kouzuki wrote:

filbert wrote:
Utter drivel. The key to any good business is to listen to your consumer base. Hence why so many companies run 'Think Customer' type internal campaigns to get their staff engaging and meeting the customer's needs. Of course, listening to your customers and following/acting on their needs is a different kettle of fish.

The only reason GW have been able to operate in a vacuum for so long is because they have had a strong grip on the market. But as the recent furore has demonstrated, even a captive audience has its breaking point.

Uhh no. The key to any good retail business MAY be to listen to your customer base. I agree that listening to the customer base HELPS a business. But acting on what the customer base says is slowed. No one should ever act simply based on what a customer says.

TBQH What do all customers want: At the end of the day, all customers want more. More of anything. Free product is great. It's even better if you pay me to buy your product.

You honestly think businesses should listen to that?

My quote bolded for clarity - of course, there is a high noise to signal ratio when getting feedback from customers and of course most customers will consider price to be the bottom line - but that is by no means the be all and end all, especially not in a retail environment like GW where interaction with the customer is key to driving sales. IMO GW have singularly failed to listen to their customers and ignore key parts of their demographic for years now and they are reaping the results. The dropping sales figures they publish every year would appear to back this up.

Off the top of my head, I am struggling to think of any retail business that doesn't take customer feedback on board and work with it in some fashion.

GalaxyGames wrote:
No- but if they pretend or take some measures to care they will seem 'personable' and somewhat likeable.

The root truth in all of this is -- Privateer Press is NOT cheaper than GW at all. Their army books are 40-50$ respectively.
Their battle engine vehicles is 85$, they have solo models for 30$? Etc etc.

However the underlying factor between all of this is - we don't hear PP players moan at all.

I think it has to come down to the perceived value of the product, along with the respect towards the company.

I would say that from personal observation PP players are happy to dish out the money (despite it actually being more than GW).

GW is a corporation. Their business is the sale of games, miniatures and miniature related accessories. All businesses are performed for the sole intent of making profits. One can liken a business to a machine that "makes money." One puts in X and out comes Y.

What purpose does a machine have being "personable?" Is your computer "personable?"

Kouzuki wrote:

GalaxyGames wrote:
No- but if they pretend or take some measures to care they will seem 'personable' and somewhat likeable.

The root truth in all of this is -- Privateer Press is NOT cheaper than GW at all. Their army books are 40-50$ respectively.
Their battle engine vehicles is 85$, they have solo models for 30$? Etc etc.

However the underlying factor between all of this is - we don't hear PP players moan at all.

I think it has to come down to the perceived value of the product, along with the respect towards the company.

I would say that from personal observation PP players are happy to dish out the money (despite it actually being more than GW).

GW is a corporation. Their business is the sale of games, miniatures and miniature related accessories. All businesses are performed for the sole intent of making profits. One can liken a business to a machine that "makes money." One puts in X and out comes Y.

What purpose does a machine have being "personable?" Is your computer "personable?"

Of course - sorry its late where I'm at. Basically all I'm saying is they should retain some sort of personality/identity.
All businesses are all about making profits true.

All I meant was something along the lines similar to what we see in Social Media. Dialogue between consumers to companies. Something that hasn't happened as powerful until just recently.
Many businesses/corporations to this day utilize Twitter/Facebook and alike to maintain dialogue and have company face with its consumers.
GW has its own Twitter/FB, and whoever is on there is obviously 'responding' to people comments and posts. So that makes the company a bit more.. well.. at the very least consumer dialogue friendly instead of a shielded off company
I mean we see 'attempts' with this through PP/GW's blog series.
Where workers from GW are asking customers to submit their pictures, emails and tag along with their company.


And in this case - PP might just be better at it. As stated... PP's prices are probably more exspensive than GW, but its consumers/customers aren't posting 5x angry threads on dakka constantly =/




If that makes sense. That's all I was getting at.

filbert wrote:
My quote bolded for clarity - of course, there is a high noise to signal ratio when getting feedback from customers and of course most customers will consider price to be the bottom line - but that is by no means the be all and end all, especially not in a retail environment like GW where interaction with the customer is key to driving sales. IMO GW have singularly failed to listen to their customers and ignore key parts of their demographic for years now and they are reaping the results. The dropping sales figures they publish every year would appear to back this up.

The dropping sales figures every year can be attributed to alot of things including changing consumer tastes, increased unemployment, increased uncertainty, lower liquidity in the market etc.

Also, how do you know GW is not listening to its customers? It may be listening very intently. But like you have said, perhaps GW doesn't act because all of it is noise?

Off the top of my head, I am struggling to think of any retail business that doesn't take customer feedback on board and work with it in some fashion.

So according to you, GW isn't a company that doesn't take customer feedback on board and work with it in some fashion. What are we arguing for then >.>

Kouzuki wrote:

Off the top of my head, I am struggling to think of any retail business that doesn't take customer feedback on board and work with it in some fashion.

So according to you, GW isn't a company that doesn't take customer feedback on board and work with it in some fashion. What are we arguing for then >.>

Not sure you have read me right. What I am saying is, I cannot think of an example of a high street retail business that doesn't solicit customer opinion or feedback in some way (other than GW, which is the point I am trying to make).

We may never know 100% if GW bother to take consumer opinion on board but all we can do is make judgements based on our experiences as consumers. Do GW regularly publish customer views/opinions/letters in WD, for example? If you write or email to GW do you get a response other than a stock form letter? Off the top of my head, those are two examples of ways which GW could be communicating with their customers but don't seem to be. I am sure there are other examples. Does that mean they are definitely not listening? No. Does it suggest they don't especially value customer opinion? Yes.

Just because GW are a corporate entity doesn't mean they are infallible. Businesses can be run badly you know.

But back to OP/OT - i htink what he was trying to say is these are the reasons why GW became so popular, and strong. Also why it is able to maintain its status.

Others get near but still miss that point that's why they cannot dethrone the king.

Maybe we can come up with some other ideas on 'why' GW is king and why we still, despite the prices, still buy from them.

GalaxyGames wrote:Maybe we can come up with some other ideas on 'why' GW is king and why we still, despite the prices, still buy from them.

Simple answer. The single basis of all trade: Both parties believe they can gain something from the trade.
You obviously feel for some reason or another you can gain more from attaining the product you are purchasing than from keeping the cash you trade in for said product.

MOST important thing.
IDENTIFY and UNDERSTAND your target demoghraphic.

This means researching the available customer base , and formulating product that apeals to a big enough demoghraphic to sustain and grow your buisness.

Kouzuki - do you work for GW or are you simply under the misapprehension that because GW is a business it can do no wrong?

Believe it or not, many if not most GW customers actually care about GW - we do not want it to go under because we will lose a source of entertainment that we value. However, when a company persists in making decisions that alienate their customers, or products which are inferior, or products which do not offer value for money, they will do badly. Years of sales figures show decreasing sales volume, offset only by cost cutting and constant price rises.

Sadly this is a vicious circle. The more GW increases prices, the fewer customers it will have, which will lead to increased prices etcetera. What we as a community and as paying customers want is GW to recognise the core failures of its business model and to fix those so it can gain sales. We need a strong, healthy company to maintain and develop the product we wish to purchase - but if GW forces its customers to leave and perpetuates the cycle, everyone will ultimately lose out.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Kouzuki - do you work for GW or are you simply under the misapprehension that because GW is a business it can do no wrong?

I'm just using logic to point out bad arguments.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Believe it or not, many if not most GW customers actually care about GW - we do not want it to go under because we will lose a source of entertainment that we value. However, when a company persists in making decisions that alienate their customers, or products which are inferior, or products which do not offer value for money, they will do badly. Years of sales figures show decreasing sales volume, offset only by cost cutting and constant price rises.

There are many *many* reasons why sales figures go down. Although decisions that alienate customers, products that are inferior, products that do not offer value for money are all detrimental factors for sales figures, these are not the only things determining how much revenue a company is making. Look at apple. Decisions that alienate customers? check. Products which are inferior? check. Products which do not offer value for money? check. Yet their sales figures go up. Why?

Additionally, decreasing sales volume and revenue do not necessarily mean that the company is "doing badly." One needs instead to look closer at EBITDA. Additionally, there are strategic reasons why a company may wish to reduce sales figures and revenue. One simple example would be such that it can be in a lower tax bracket.

Sadly this is a vicious circle. The more GW increases prices, the fewer customers it will have, which will lead to increased prices etcetera. What we as a community and as paying customers want is GW to recognise the core failures of its business model and to fix those so it can gain sales. We need a strong, healthy company to maintain and develop the product we wish to purchase - but if GW forces its customers to leave and perpetuates the cycle, everyone will ultimately lose out.

First things first, GW products are a luxury. Luxuries have relatively static demand curves compared to necessities. If economic theory holds true, a decrease in price, but increase in customers still doesn't bring about as much gain for GW as an increase in price (and loss of customers.) If you really "care" for GW you should be happy that they are increasing prices. The way I see it, GW is adjusting their prices yearly in order to find a perfect price point where supply meets demand.

TBH Games Workshop does listen to customers. Proof is in the 5th edition rulebook when they adapted true line of sight. Mentioned in W.D that many people were doing this in 4th even though not part of the rules and they incorporated it because that's how people played/wanted.

G.W sales have also probably dropped off not because of Fantasy box set or anything else due to there own actions. Sales have dropped off because of the recession. The entire high street retail shops are having problems just not G.W. People are cutting money less and that's why prices go up, less sales for G.W because people are spending less means they increase prices to get more money in. Yes I know it is kind of backwards as personally I would have gone on less is more. But, from a sales point of view do you work hard and sell loads of things making little profit per item or do you sell a small amount of products doing less work and make loads of profit? I know which one I would rather do.


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Oh Kouzuki I like what you're saying. Do you own a business or are you just switched on?

Kouzuki wrote:

If you really "care" for GW you should be happy that they are increasing prices.

ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa you killed me now

mercer wrote:
Oh Kouzuki I like what you're saying. Do you own a business or are you just switched on?

Nah. I wish I did =p. I work in private equity though.

I thought you might have dealt with finance or something.

Haha yeah spoke too soon, Lucky i bought that space marine battleforce a couple months back. Interesting points guys.

I dont think Privateer press is quite different enough to make the 'apples and pears' argument though, it is still a fantasy/sci fi wargame and little of their fan base is mutually exclusive from gw.

Quite simply smaller mini/wargame companies have to start with a skirmish level game, once they have a solid fanbase and have nailed production deals down they move to bigger scale. Look at rogue trader!

I dont even believe Increasing scale is neccesarily pure money grabbing, the clamour for 'Apocalypse' sized battles from fans was much louder in GW's ears than the potential for selling baneblades.

Sadly this is a vicious circle. The more GW increases prices, the fewer customers it will have, which will lead to increased prices etcetera. What we as a community and as paying customers want is GW to recognise the core failures of its business model and to fix those so it can gain sales. We need a strong, healthy company to maintain and develop the product we wish to purchase - but if GW forces its customers to leave and perpetuates the cycle, everyone will ultimately lose out.

First things first, GW products are a luxury. Luxuries have relatively static demand curves compared to necessities. If economic theory holds true, a decrease in price, but increase in customers still doesn't bring about as much gain for GW as an increase in price (and loss of customers.) If you really "care" for GW you should be happy that they are increasing prices. The way I see it, GW is adjusting their prices yearly in order to find a perfect price point where supply meets demand.

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

So when you read their annual reports (as I'm sure you have, since you are attempting to speak authoritatively on the matter) what do you read that gives you a 100% completely opposite opinion of every other poster on this website with a finance or accounting background (including the ones that are actually securities analysts) ?

You haven't actually shown how GW is doing well, just posted a bunch of handwavy what-ifs that anyone who hung out near an Economics 101 lecture hall would pick up after about 15 minutes.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
I see, so I should be glad that I can no longer afford to participate in my hobby and that many other people are no longer able to do so? I feel deeply gratified that rich people (such as say, those who work in private equity ) will be able to afford the luxury of an enjoyable pastime while us mere grunts who work hard, pay our taxes and raise our families just have to make do without - but that's ok because I can press my nose against the glass of a GW store and see all the fun that the lawyers, bankers and doctors kids are having inside with their 'luxury' toys.

It all depends on what you want. You said in your original post you don't want GW to go bust. In which case, yes, you should be happy that prices are going up.
Now you are going back on your word and saying no, you don't care if GW goes bust as long as you can afford your hobby. Pick one and stay with it.

Everyone works hard. Everyone has problems. Everyone pays taxes, raises families, etc. Bringing in "rich people" or "poor people" is irrelevant to the discussion. You (I assume you do not conscider yourself in the "rich people" category) are unable to have what they have because you made your career decision to follow whatever path you currently tread, with the full understanding of what it would etnail. You too had a choice of becoming a lawyer, banker, or doctor. You did not take it. You now suffer the consequences, of which the cause is you, and you alone.

Its a game of toy soldiers for feths sake - and one that if GW was run better could be enjoyed more by a broader fanbase and at more affordable prices (whilst, incidentally, still being a profit-making organisation).

Making a profit of $1 dollar is still a profit. I will ask you. If you could make a $1 profit, or a $100 profit, or even a $1,000,000 profit, all other things equal, which would you choose? Any logical man would pick the $1,000,000 profit. If you do not agree to this, you are not logical, and there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Sadly, Kirby et al do not believe that growing the company is a good idea. Hell, why go to all that effort when you can just keep shrinking the company while charging higher prices until the bubble bursts? At which point, the senior people will walk off with huge pots of cash while the people at the bottom lose their jobs and the customers lose the hobby that ultimately their money has created.

who's money has created? The customer's money? What? Unless the customers are the ones that created the hobby, created the IPs, created the models etc., it is NOT the customer's money that has created the hobby. The second you give money to GW, it is GW's money. Customers have no right to complain about how GW uses their money. It is their money. GW doesn't complain about how you use your money either.

Growing the company can be a bad idea. What makes you think a big company is a good one? Yes there is such thing as economies of scale. However, too big of a company is also inefficient. You get communication problems etc. Perhaps Kirby has found that GW is currently operating inefficiently, and it is better for the company to reduce it's size.

Thirdly, do you even know how a board of directors works -.-?

Should GW make a profit? Of course they should and no sane person would disagree with that, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Increasing profits can be done by reducing costs, increasing prices and/or increasing sales. What GW fail to realise is that by reducing sales (the figures quite clearly show sales volume is falling) they are reducing their customer base. Given that they (by their own admission) advertise solely through word-of-mouth, that means every customer lost is also potential new customers lost as well. Couple this with an approach to their customers which shows nothing but glaring contempt and arrogance and they now have a new problem of veteran gamers actively encouraging potential new gamers to go with one of GW's competitors instead of them.

What makes you think increasing sales volume makes more profit? You can sell 1 unit at 0 profit, or 100 units at 0 profit. In the end it is still 0 profit.

What you fail to realize is that a reduction in sales volume and an increase in prices is what GW may have desired. They may have realized that they have been selling their products for far too low a price and are steadily increasing prices in order to find a good balance.

So, you can stick your head in the sand saying 'its ok, profits are still healthy' whilst ignoring the huge groundswell of feeling against your business and watch your customer base shrink year-on-year until the company disappears, or you can (to switch metaphors) wake up and smell the coffee and do something about it. The vast majority of GW's customers want the latter, but we're not that hopeful it will happen.

Profits are always healthy. If the customer base really shrinks that much, eventually profits will shrink as well. After all, making a $100 profit per unit sold is still $0 profit is 0 units are sold. What GW is trying to do is fine the point at which they can make maximum profits. Is that really so bad?

What GW is trying to do is this.

Year1, they make X profits.
Y2 they increase prices, and make X+1, or Y profits.
Y3 they increase prices again and because the customer base shrinks so much, they make Y-2 (or x-1) profits.

All they need to do for Y4 is reduce prices back to the prices of Y2.




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MikeMcSomething wrote:
So when you read their annual reports (as I'm sure you have, since you are attempting to speak authoritatively on the matter) what do you read that gives you a 100% completely opposite opinion of every other poster on this website with a finance or accounting background (including the ones that are actually securities analysts) ?

You haven't actually shown how GW is doing well, just posted a bunch of handwavy what-ifs that anyone who hung out near an Economics 101 lecture hall would pick up after about 15 minutes.

Who says my opinion is different? I'm pretty sure my opinion is the same or similar as anyone with a finance or accounting background.

I also wish, as a customer, for lower prices. I don't think GW is doing well, which is why I've not posted anything about them doing well. I am simply giving an argument from an investors (tbqh, the only people that matter in this situation,) point of view as to why GW is doing what they are doing.

And FYI you don't learn anything about reading financial statements in an economics lecture.

If I remember correctly they've been losing money since interest was lost in LoTR and have been trying to slow the decline with these price increases. They were making a decent amount of profit while the movies were out, but as the interest in it dropped off so did the additional profits it created. Essentially by continuing the range and not investing in a sufficient advertising strategy they began to just sink money.

I agree they need to make money, as that's primary the role of a company, but you have to take into account long and short term. Gaining $1,000,000 right at the moment would be nice, but not if you have to give $4,000,000 about 5 years down the track. Sinking money is never good, but profits usually are. Profits from sinking money though are pretty much just reducing the profit there is to gain anyway and hurts the business.

n0t_u wrote:If I remember correctly they've been losing money since interest was lost in LoTR and have been trying to slow the decline with these price increases. They were making a decent amount of profit while the movies were out, but as the interest in it dropped off so did the additional profits it created. Essentially by continuing the range and not investing in a sufficient advertising strategy they began to just sink money.

I agree they need to make money, as that's primary the role of a company, but you have to take into account long and short term. Gaining $1,000,000 right at the moment would be nice, but not if you have to give $4,000,000 about 5 years down the track. Sinking money is never good, but profits usually are. Profits from sinking money though are pretty much just reducing the profit there is to gain anyway and hurts the business.

Yes. Maximizing long term profits is ideal. My question to you now is, how do you know for a fact that GW will have to give up profit 5 years down the track? Can you read the future? In which case, why are you playing silly games like GW hobbies, there are much better things for you to do El Shaddai!