Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**MrMoustaffa**

strepp wrote:
CaptainO wrote:
Is anyone still using Taurox Primes rather than a Leman Russ since the grinding advance rule came in? Points difference is minimal for much the greater survivability of the Russ. T8 and W12 v T6 and W10. The Taurox Prime transport ability is nigh on useless to me as I deep strike my MT units.

There are a few things I like about the Taurox Prime compared to the Leman Russ, but the biggest one is mobility. To benefit from GA you need to slowly advance (or stay still), which limits what the vehicle can do. The Taurox can either sit still and can pretend to be a Predator, or it can zip around and pretend to be a Venom.

Personally I like playing a fast-moving army, which both MT vehicles (Taurox and Valkyrie) compliment. Given we typically play Maelstrom games, the Taurox has been a real boon for me (gatling cannon and volley gun setup especially).

Tauroxes are also cheaper, can be taken in greater numbers, and are unlocked anyways in a stormtrooper detachment without screwing over your special ability like a Leman russ would. I could be wrong, but I also think two tauroxes compared to a Leman Russ punisher is slightly more durable due to the sheer amount of wounds. Not to mention higher BS. I'm not much for mathammer though.

Two gatling primes for example compare almost perfectly pointswise to a Punisher tank commander. That's a pretty good comparison to let you decide what matters more to you. There's a laundry list of pros and cons between the two so it's really going to come down to what kind of army you're trying to build, I can see reasons to bring either the primes or the leman russ.

**Colonel Cross**

Used a baneblade for the first time ever tonight. He put in some serious work. Using the overwatch on 5+ Stratagem + Vengeance for Cadia is probably OP when used on it haha. Especially if I had taken sponsons.

I'm really starting to develop a general TAC list. A BN with 2 COs, infantry 4 squads, Command sqd w/banner, Rough Riders, a Spearhead with a Russ CDR, 3 Russes, a Spearhead with Basilisk, Wyvern, and HWS, Vanguard with Celestine, Eversor, Bullgryn + Valkyrie, and Astropath.

It's got enough chaff to blunt most forces smites and anti troop firepower long enough until I can start steam rolling. And I just drop the Bullgryn on a far obj or attack their rear lines along with the Assassin, rough riders, Celestine, etc. It's done very well thus far.

**Lothar**

Hi guys,

so, several games with guard codex done. Not doing very well so far

. I would really like to know how do you deal with:

1) very fast close combat armies? (jetbikes, fast orks/chaos/other stuff)

2) armies with -1 and more to hit debuff (lots of them out there now)

3) big bastards (roboute, celestine, morty, magnus)

I dont really know how to counter close combat guys because of their ability to lock multiple units, kill or criple them and use close combat movement to lock the second line of my men or tanks. What worked for you so far? Beeing curious.
Just want to add that I only play low points battles for now (about 1000 points).

**gendoikari87**

Well made my first foray into guard. now just gotta figure out what i'm stuffing inside the chimeras.

**ChargerIIC**

1) As catchan I normaly rely on my higher strength and vicious traps. Outside of them, I'll buy some extra squads with flamers. Between the flamer and the Sargent chainsword, they remain a viable threat in overwatch and melee. The goal isn't so much to out melee them as to bog them down in one squad after another while your big guns do work. Put your normal infantry about 3 inches behind the flamer squads and the opponent might have to wait until turn 3 before they can get through your lines.

2) Salamander Command Vehicles and Wyverns. The Salamander can negate the -1 to hit and wyverns can take advantage of ariel spotter for shenagians.

3) Still working on the primarchs. They are just so damn point efficent that every faction seems to eitehr need to use them or build to stop them. Some people go the PUnsiher canon route , but I prefer the Vanquishers. FW Stygies vanguisher+Salamander Command would be a nice combination. Or tank commander vanquisher + Salamander.

I've heard that magnus fears multiple lascanon HWTs, but Mort would eat through them like candy. The only solution to Guliman seems to be to ignore him and kill the rest of the damn army since he's almost immortal.

To avoid close combat locking, put units in a line about 6 inches from each other. Even gaunts cant consolidate that far, but you can fall back a couple inches and have both your survivors and the backline squad fighting.

**Lothar**

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the matter! I really appreciate that.

I just need to mention we do not play with Forge World models (we prefer "basic" GW stuff, the game is very expensive even without Forge Worlds "resin fee"

).

I do play Cadians, btw. My list is ussually conscripts up front, backed by few units of upgraded infantry squads (plasma, lascanon) and two Leman Russes (one commander, one normal, using battle canon/executioner with bolters or plasma) or Artilery pieces (manticore, basilisk).

**ChargerIIC**

Lothar wrote:
Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the matter! I really appreciate that.

I just need to mention we do not play with Forge World models (we prefer "basic" GW stuff, the game is very expensive even without Forge Worlds "resin fee" ).

I do play Cadians, btw. My list is ussually conscripts up front, backed by few units of upgraded infantry squads (plasma, lascanon) and two Leman Russes (one commander, one normal, using battle canon/executioner with bolters or plasma) or Artilery pieces (manticore, basilisk).

For the Salamander you can make your own from a Chimera kit and some spare bits:

I've found that most GW stuff can be modded into forgeworld so long as you stay out of the 200+ dollar range.

**daedalus**

That's a nifty conversion, but I don't know how impressed I am with the salamander, honestly. Improving to-hit for vehicles is pretty awesome, but it's about half the price of another tank. I guess it could be nasty pairing up with a superheavy. It is one of the only ways we can deal with the -1 to hit problem though. My primary opponent is Eldar, and it almost irritates me enough to put together some Sabre searchlights, but I haven't because I don't feel like I need them against anyone else. Maybe some day.

**gendoikari87**

So I’ve tried mathhammering battle cannon and multi melta leman russes against plasmacutioners and I can’t really tell which is better they’re so close. Thoughts? I’m tempted to bc because they look better but plasmacutioners I could magnetize into punishers as well and there’s fw bc turrets that are sweet for either option. Thoughts?

**ChargerIIC**

Plasma if you plan on having a tank commander nearby to reroll 1s. Classic cannon if you don't.

Not sold on multi-melta sponsons. It's just too many points for not much over a plasma.

**vipoid**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Plasma if you plan on having a tank commander nearby to reroll 1s. Classic cannon if you don't.

Not sold on multi-melta sponsons. It's just too many points for not much over a plasma.

I'm not sold on Plasma sponsons. Too many points for not much over a Heavy Bolter.

**ChargerIIC**

I use Heavy bolters, but the extra armor penetration of plasma is good. Multi-meltas are an extra 10 pts over plasma and are only really useful if you are within 12 inches of the enemy. They are only slighter better than the plasma sponsons at range.

If your leman russ is within 12 inches of the enemy than something is going wrong.

**gendoikari87**

Plasma is decent anti tank these days, heavy bolters are not. Also Leman Russ s artillery for anti tank?

**daedalus**

So next time I play, I'm doing this:

Spoiler:

I don't see a whole lot of Girlyback razor lists in my area, but I honestly can't think of anything that could deal with this. Can Eldar get any better than a -2 to hit modifier? Because that could be annoying, but I honestly think I have the bullets to deal with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to drop something to work in a command squad with banner or two. Alternatively, I could add a third detachment and toss a few inquisitors in there, but since I'm going Mordian, I'm already halfway there.

**ChargerIIC**

daedalus wrote:
So next time I play, I'm doing this:

Spoiler:

Tempestus Battalion:
- Primaris Psyker
- Stormtrooper Prime
* command rod
- Stormtrooper Prime
* command rod

- Stormtroopers x 5
* plasmagun x 2
* plasma pistol
- Stormtroopers x 5
* plasmagun x 2
* plasma pistol
- Stormtroopers x 5
* plasmagun x 2
* plasma pistol
- Stormtroopers x 5
* plasmagun x 2
* plasma pistol

Mordian Brigade:
- Company Commander
* bolt pistol
- Company Commander
* bolt pistol
- Primaris Psyker
- Primaris Psyker
- Primaris Psyker

- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword
- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword
- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword
- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword
- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword
- Infantry Squad
* plasma pistol
* plasma gun
* power sword

- Astropath
- Astropath
- Master of Ordinance

- Hellhound
- Hellhound
- Scout Sentinel

- Basilisk
- Basilisk
- HWS
* Lascannon x 3
- HWS
* Lascannon x 3
- Leman Russ Executioner
* Hull Lascannon

- Avenger Strike Fighter
* 2 Hellstrike Missiles

I don't see a whole lot of Girlyback razor lists in my area, but I honestly can't think of anything that could deal with this. Can Eldar get any better than a -2 to hit modifier? Because that could be annoying, but I honestly think I have the bullets to deal with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to drop something to work in a command squad with banner or two. Alternatively, I could add a third detachment and toss a few inquisitors in there, but since I'm going Mordian, I'm already halfway there.

Some nice parts. I'd drop the plasma pistols on the sargents. Between the limited range and chance of accidentally -1 your leadership on rolling 1s and blowing the poor bastard up. I'd drop them to chainsword/las pistol and include a special weapon squad instead. Stormtrooper is nice, but I'm not certain you are allowed to take 2 special weapons in a standard squad of 5 models.

**CaptainO**

He's good. For every 5 MT/Stormtrooper models he can take two special weapons.

The command squad can take 4 even if there are only 4 of them.

**daedalus**

ChargerIIC wrote:

Some nice parts. I'd drop the plasma pistols on the sargents. Between the limited range and chance of accidentally -1 your leadership on rolling 1s and blowing the poor bastard up. I'd drop them to chainsword/las pistol and include a special weapon squad instead. Stormtrooper is nice, but I'm not certain you are allowed to take 2 special weapons in a standard squad of 5 models.

I've had the plasma pistols work out pretty well for me in the past, though that was back when we still had effective commissars, so leadership mattered a lot less.

My concern about the SWS is that I kinda lack a delivery mechanism for them. I'm not opposed to the idea. Just trying to figure out how they work with the rest of the list.

**DoomMouse**

I think if using special weapons squads it makes sense to go all in or not to use any. Whenever I've used 4 or 5 plasma SWSs they just get gunned down first.

I could see a cadian list with the relic and 20 or so plasma SWSs working out really nicely if you have the plasma available haha

**Panzergraf**

ChargerIIC wrote:
I use Heavy bolters, but the extra armor penetration of plasma is good. Multi-meltas are an extra 10 pts over plasma and are only really useful if you are within 12 inches of the enemy. They are only slighter better than the plasma sponsons at range.

Using Pask, (as Cadian, so rerolling ones to hit), Plasma sponsons will do 3.2 damage VS another Russ. 4 damage if he gives himself the order to reroll number of shots.
MM sponsons will do 3.4 damage at long range, 4.3 at short range.

With a regular tank commander, using the reroll 1's order (but not the Cadian specific order to reroll shots), MM will do 3.4 at short range, 2.7 at long range, and Plasma Cannons at high power will do 2.5 damage.

So the difference is not that great. Both Plasma Cannon and Multimelta sponsons are pretty pricey, so I would reserve them for tanks with improved BS, like tank commanders and Pask, to get the most out of them.

**Vaktathi**

Personally I don't like the multimeltas. The short range doesn't jive with the platform (which mostly has long range guns and its move-and-shoot special rule doesn't apply to the sponsons), especially for the damage reroll, while the plasma cannons give you more range, the same max potential damage, roughly the same average damage, more shots for use against smaller units, and they're cheaper than the MM's.

I would concur on reserving their use for Tank Commanders, otherwise I think Heavy Bolters are the way to go and are cheap enough to always be an "auto include" on most Russ tanks, primarily because of that AP-1, they're really useful for taking that last wound off something or killing off that last dude in a unit. If you're just shooting at something like a Tac marine squad with a Battlecannon, those 16pts basically increases your damage output by 40% (assuming a hull HB as well).

**Colonel Cross**

I think the only way multi meltas are any good is on a Tallarn Demolisher that is outflanking. That way you at least mitigate the range and moving and firing at full effect while preventing enemy from alpha striking it.

**MrMoustaffa**

What's everyone's thoughts on the FW Leman Russ Annihilator and Stygies Vanquisher? I took a peak at the battlescribe stats for them and they look fun if maybe not the most competitive choices but I know from experience Battlescribe often gets rules wrong.

For example, it was claiming the Stygies has a coax stormbolter but on the model it appears to have a coax heavy stubber. It also claimed it got an additional trait where if it stood still your BS improved by 1, yet the codex has no such rule.

As for the Annihilator, it's just more lascannons. But being able to pump out 5 lascannons from a Russ a turn sounded too fun to not try at least once, like an exterminator but actually useful. I'm sure that we have more efficient AT out there but anything that helps get more lascannons on the table is a good thing in my book. My lists are primarily infantry and lack punch past 24" in many cases, so the Annihilator seemed like just what the doctor ordered.

It also appeared that neither of these variants could be taken by a commander, meaning they would have to be regular tanks. Not a big deal, I'm not too worried about it and I have an executioner I always take as my command tank, but it seemed odd. I really just want them because they look cool and my friend was making a FW order, as opposed to filling a critical part of my list.

**KestrelM1**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
What's everyone's thoughts on the FW Leman Russ Annihilator and Stygies Vanquisher? I took a peak at the battlescribe stats for them and they look fun if maybe not the most competitive choices but I know from experience Battlescribe often gets rules wrong.

The Annihilator is currently the best anti-tank Russ, bar none. It and the Conqueror are probably the two best variants available right now.

The "+1 to hit while immobile" rule is actually on the Stygies Vanquisher cannon weapon itself, not the Leman Russ profile, so that's probably why you missed it. The model previously had options for co-axial storm bolter or heavy stubber, but for some reason, the latter is no longer an option this edition. It's an okay variant, held back mostly by the fact that the Vanquisher Cannon profile is just plain bad.

**ChargerIIC**

The Annihilator is ok. It's great getting those STR9 hits, but it's so few shots that it doesn't really ever get that alpha strike you are hoping for.

I'm purchasing a stygies vanquisher turret and might buy a second to convert to a conqueror. It's a small point cost, but being able to shoot at range and then up the accuracy as I get approached is pretty good. The vanquisher has the same problem in number of shots, but you only really need one to hit.

**Panzergraf**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
For example, it was claiming the Stygies has a coax stormbolter but on the model it appears to have a coax heavy stubber. It also claimed it got an additional trait where if it stood still your BS improved by 1, yet the codex has no such rule.

Stygies and Gryphonne Vanquishers have coax Storm Bolters, Ryza pattern has a coax Heavy Stubber.
The rules for these are not in the Codex, but in the FW IA index. Conquerors and Stygies Vanquishers have the Storm Bolter specifically as a coax weapon, while in the Krieg Index, the Krieg Leman Russ has a coax rule that mentions both the stubber and storm bolter.
Not sure if limiting non-Krieg Vanquisher/Comquerors to just having the Storm Bolter as a coax with no option for a Heavy Stubber is intentional or a typical FW typo.

**Vaktathi**

Im a huge fan of the Annihilator, a great all-rounder when given HB sponsons, particularly in a Cadian army with the reroll 1's. If they could be made tank commanders they'd be fantastic, but alas.

I'm a huge fan though, they're pretty sweet.

**MrMoustaffa**

Vaktathi wrote:
Im a huge fan of the Annihilator, a great all-rounder when given HB sponsons, particularly in a Cadian army with the reroll 1's. If they could be made tank commanders they'd be fantastic, but alas.

I'm a huge fan though, they're pretty sweet.

Ah ok, I was wondering if I was reading that right that you couldn't take the variants as commanders.

Also funny little aside, the Regimental Standard today hinted potentially that Marbo was doing something somewhere. I'm wondering if Marbo is coming back in 8th through chapter approved or something. It's a really weak theory but it's the only reason I can think of them censoring the 3rd theory and it mentioning Catachan. It'll be interesting to see how they would do Marbo for 8th, depending on his rules and abilities he could be pretty scary for close combat and assassinating targets now (if his rules are similar to 7th and before)

**Colonel Cross**

I'm very pumped for Marbo to return. He will go nicely with my original sculpt Straken.

**ChargerIIC**

I think somewhere a GW writer is frantically looking over his catachan article, trying to figure out how people got 'marbo' from 'catachan' while his bosses can be heard screaming down the hall.

**MrMoustaffa**

ChargerIIC wrote:
I think somewhere a GW writer is frantically looking over his catachan article, trying to figure out how people got 'marbo' from 'catachan' while his bosses can be heard screaming down the hall.

Because the actions described in the article are word for word what Marbo is known for. I'm just going to repost what I just put in the news thread. Simply put, the article couldn't hint Marbo any harder unless they started sneaking Rambo quotes in

Spoiler:

Cream Tea wrote:
Please forgive my ignorance of mon-keigh matters, but shouldn't this guy be dead by now? The 8th ed time skip wasn't that long by Eldar standards, but for non-marine mon-keigh it was.

Not necessarily, rejuvenation drugs are a thing and cause a human to live a few hundred years. A master of stealth like Marbo probably has the ability to either sneak in and grab this kind of thing or just receive it outright due to his incredible career. Doesn't he hold the record for being awarded the highest military award in the Imperium or something like that?

As for his origins, he's supposedly from the Catachan XII originally, the sole survivor of 10 brothers according to my 5th ed codex in front of me. However two weeks later he returns to the lines with the head of the ork warboss, a single bullet hole between its eyes.The codex repeatedly mentions that Marbo is probably no longer sane, his haunting eyes and silent demeanor unnerving even the most hardened of soldiers. It goes on to state him ambushing and destroying entire armored columns with well laid traps, taking entire command posts, assassinating entire enemy command structures, and even hunting Lichtors. The descriptions of the bodies in the Regimental standard article are absolutely well within his M.O.

In the 3rd edition (at least I think it's 3rd edition) Catachan codex that I also have, we have this lovely little line

The colonel stepped up to Trooper Marbo. Marbo's eyes were empty again, like they always were when he wasn't stalking through the jungle or carving his name in some enemy's internal organs. Inwardly the Colonel sighed - there was something wrong with this boy: blood and death had warped him to the point where he could only be normal with a blade in his hand.

Once again the Colonel pronounced the well rehearsed words. "For valour in battle and service to the Emperor of unbounded courage you are hereby awarded the Star of Terra, bear it with pride that you may inspire others to worthy endeavour in the service of Man." The colonel completed the dedication in a single breath before pinning the medal to Marbo's chest.

This one was for wiping out a whole squad of aliens, killing their commander, and capturing their command post single-handed. He leaned closer to Marbo and asked "You want me to look after it for you son? Like the rest?"

Marbo nodded solemnly.

"Alright son, you can go." The words had barely left the Colonel's lips before Sly Marbo had plunged back into the jungle as smoothly as a fish slipping into a stream.

So yeah, option 3 is absolutely the most likely, as the article itself states. Marbo has had a rough life and this kind of grisly aftermath is par for the course for him. I know anyone who used him in 5th can confirm that, Marbo may have been a bit unpredictable but he was a well loved model in almost every guard player's collection and the codex has been worse off ever since his absence.

EDIT: And it's now confirmed he's back! Just go check the news and rumors thread. Can't wait to see his rules