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I think the sad part about the rush of tanks is that... despite how many tanks we've gotten, there's still SO MANY MORE.

2 variants of Vindicator
3 more variants of Sicaran
Command Rhino
3 variants of Arquitor
3 variants of Sabre
Legion Glaive
Legion Fellblade
Legion Falchion
Legion Basilisk/Medusa
Termite Drill
Mastodon

Now, I think that the Mastodon, Glaive, Fellblade, Falchion, Arquitor, and Sabre are likely not on the list to be updated any time soon BUT YOU NEVER KNOW, I'm just listing them here. Even without those, considering the Vindicator will likely have both weapons in 1 but the others will be separated, it's likely that's 7 more tanks that could release before we see any Assault Marines.

The fact is also that the entirety of the Mk6 bolter squad, sergeant sprue included, takes up less sprue space than just predator turrets. So it's false that tank variants are easier/cheaper to tool.

But I'm used to stans bending over backwards to invent excuses for their favorite corporation, now mixed with a healthy dose of gleeful gatekeeping by HH grognards. I'ts okay bro, new players don't need troop choices bro, they can buy resin at 10 clams per model like what we did, the game will do just fine if old farts who already have armies can pretend to be buying all these plastic tanks they simultaneously say are useless in the new edition.

drbored wrote:
I think the sad part about the rush of tanks is that... despite how many tanks we've gotten, there's still SO MANY MORE.

2 variants of Vindicator
3 more variants of Sicaran
Command Rhino
3 variants of Arquitor
3 variants of Sabre
Legion Glaive
Legion Fellblade
Legion Falchion
Legion Basilisk/Medusa
Termite Drill
Mastodon

Now, I think that the Mastodon, Glaive, Fellblade, Falchion, Arquitor, and Sabre are likely not on the list to be updated any time soon BUT YOU NEVER KNOW, I'm just listing them here. Even without those, considering the Vindicator will likely have both weapons in 1 but the others will be separated, it's likely that's 7 more tanks that could release before we see any Assault Marines.

Sounds reasonable. GW will surely publish soon a PDF how to properly play HH 2.0 though you will need double the table space as usual: Leave infantry on the shelves (they are squishy anyway) and use lots of tanks instead. VROOM! VROOM! VROOM!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The fact is also that the entirety of the Mk6 bolter squad, sergeant sprue included, takes up less sprue space than just predator turrets. So it's false that tank variants are easier/cheaper to tool.

But I'm used to stans bending over backwards to invent excuses for their favorite corporation, now mixed with a healthy dose of gleeful gatekeeping by HH grognards. I'ts okay bro, new players don't need troop choices bro, they can buy resin at 10 clams per model like what we did, the game will do just fine if old farts who already have armies can pretend to be buying all these plastic tanks they simultaneously say are useless in the new edition.

Least strawmanned post on DakkaDakka.

Honestly even the FW resins are spoiling you all too much, back in my day we used to have to buy 20 boxes of 2002 CSM squad to get a tactical's squad worth of Mk5 chest pieces and we had to file off the chaos trims and we liked it fine that way.

A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. It was highly requested, but by people whose main concern was "how do I make my personal army cheaper" and not "how do I increase shareholder value". From a sales point of view the Spartan is actually a fairly questionable choice. Its popularity was largely the result of balance issues rather than inherent appeal to the model, and being a dominant unit for so long meant that a large percentage of the customer base already owned one. And since it's an expensive tank that requires an even more expensive terminator/primarch death star to function it's rare that a player will ever want to buy more than one. Contrast that with basic troops, which are always bought in multiples so the impact of a price drop is more significant and demand is more reliable, and the Spartan doesn't look like a great investment vs. a resin Spartan and plastic core units.

The Spartan got nerfed like four times in HH1 and was still a massively popular FW product. It went from being way undercosted to coming close to a quarter of a 2k list if you took certain upgrades. The biggest complaint was that the FW kit is an unwieldy brick of resin that also happens to have a lot of annoyingly fragile parts, specifically the sponsons and edges of the tracks. People rebuy models when they become better my guy and that is what GW did with the Spartan. It was an instant hype win when the Spartan got confirmed because it's insanely popular regardless of rules.

Of course GW isn't going to dump it immediately. But GW ending production isn't the only way for a game to die. Continued lack of access to high-demand kits means people are going to eventually get tired of waiting and move on. They'll be busy with other projects, the money they would have spent on 30k will be allocated elsewhere, and GW will be in the position of trying to rebuild hype and demand for a game that most people have already considered and rejected. Production may not end for quite a while longer but you end up with a game like Aeronautica Imperialis where the models are still mostly available to buy but ongoing support is nonexistent and the product line may never be finished. And there are already some red flags that 30k is heading that way in the slow pace of releases (other than mediocre shoulder pads) and GW's continued refusal to spend even a few minutes addressing the most egregious balance issues.

Balance issues aside, people like you are giving the game less than a year and saying it's going to be dead and then claim I'm the one who is incorrect in my assessment of the system.
As for availability, I'm on the UK GW website and the only things I can't order currently are the Scorpius, Contemptor (which was in stock last week because my mate got one), Fafnir Rann, 3 Legion dice sets and 4 Legion transfer sheets. And once again, if the current releases for HH in a six-month window are "slow" then I'm the King of France.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

That is some grade-A, free range, 36 day matured, prime cope my dude.

Organic, grass-fed, ethically-sourced Copium.

Gentlemen.

What exactly is it you believe I’m trying to “cope” with?

I dont think GW intend to make Horus Heresy all plastic. They probably realise people will focus on buying legion uniqe infantry and HQ from FW. If they kept the tanks resin, most guys would simply not bother to get them. This way sales are way up for tanks, and people will still get those super elite CC units in resin.

Hard to get excited by a new tank that I already have. But that's entirely a "me" problem. If you want a Cerberus? Congratulations! It's now cheaper and in plastic!

Can I have my jetbikes now? And Cults and Militia and Daemons of the Ruinstorm rules? Maybe some more infantry options? Definitely not calling the plastic release of the Cerberus "bad", just not what I'm personally looking for right now.

 Fayric wrote:
I dont think GW intend to make Horus Heresy all plastic. They probably realise people will focus on buying legion uniqe infantry and HQ from FW. If they kept the tanks resin, most guys would simply not bother to get them. This way sales are way up for tanks, and people will still get those super elite CC units in resin.

Except people aren't talking about the Legion unique stuff, they're talking about the base Troops in the basic shared army list.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
I dont think GW intend to make Horus Heresy all plastic. They probably realise people will focus on buying legion uniqe infantry and HQ from FW. If they kept the tanks resin, most guys would simply not bother to get them. This way sales are way up for tanks, and people will still get those super elite CC units in resin.

Except people aren't talking about the Legion unique stuff, they're talking about the base Troops in the basic shared army list.

A more solid foundation(troops) will yield a stronger game as a whole. But they'd rather load up top with tanks.

They could be saving Assault marines to be the stars of the next HH big box, when they get around to it. Say 30 assault marines, 10 Tartaros praetors, a Deredeo dread, a Proteus Land Raider, and a jump and Tartaros Praetor. Keep the price the same, but maybe a paperback rulebook to drop the cost. Leverage demand for the assault marines to push a few older kits in a big box that is still seen as good value, and get a second big wave of HH going. In the meantime, Tanks are single new sprues that help push a bunch of existing sprues in a new box, so extra profit margin, and the occasional more unique unit like Jetbikes to keep interest up.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
I dont think GW intend to make Horus Heresy all plastic. They probably realise people will focus on buying legion uniqe infantry and HQ from FW. If they kept the tanks resin, most guys would simply not bother to get them. This way sales are way up for tanks, and people will still get those super elite CC units in resin.

Except people aren't talking about the Legion unique stuff, they're talking about the base Troops in the basic shared army list.

A more solid foundation(troops) will yield a stronger game as a whole. But they'd rather load up top with tanks.

Or maybe....switching more tooling/casting manpower from tanks/vehicles = more tooling/manpower available for Legion specific infantry units, with more "generic" infantry to follow? Just a guess, might be wrong. But at least we have a real WARgame, instead of the pathetic BOARDgame that 40k has devolved into. TLDR- we still have the better game. Just need to do more kitbashing/conversions, which always fun, IMHO.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

The thought would be a good one, if vehicles outgunned anything or were difficult to destroy. Infantry with lascannons will make short work of any vehicle on the table, including spartans and the like. Contemptors will shred everything too, and with an assault cannon can ding lighter vehicles like rhinos and predators to death.

I played a game with 3 contemptors with assault cannons and fists, a leviathan with dual grav bombards, and a single squad of 10 lascannons (plus various troops and whatnot) and my opponent had a Kratos, a spartan, rhinos, predators, and sicarans. In the first round alone I had destroyed the Kratos, the Spartan, and stunned most of the other vehicles. By the second round, he had nothing left but a predator cowering in the back corner.

So, to suggest they're releasing plastic vehicles to help newbies not get dominated by resin vehicles also suggests that they aren't aware of how their own ruleset works. If anything, the initial release of heavy weapons and contemptors was to help old players get up to snuff and trade up their old resin vehicles

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
They could be saving Assault marines to be the stars of the next HH big box, when they get around to it. Say 30 assault marines, 10 Tartaros praetors, a Deredeo dread, a Proteus Land Raider, and a jump and Tartaros Praetor. Keep the price the same, but maybe a paperback rulebook to drop the cost. Leverage demand for the assault marines to push a few older kits in a big box that is still seen as good value, and get a second big wave of HH going. In the meantime, Tanks are single new sprues that help push a bunch of existing sprues in a new box, so extra profit margin, and the occasional more unique unit like Jetbikes to keep interest up.

Possible. I think there was talk about GW doing multiple large 30k boxes to introduce further units.

Do I think it's a good idea? Heck no. Takes too long for us to actually get the models we need to play games with the armies we want to play

 Rihgu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

The thought would be a good one, if vehicles outgunned anything or were difficult to destroy. Infantry with lascannons will make short work of any vehicle on the table, including spartans and the like. Contemptors will shred everything too, and with an assault cannon can ding lighter vehicles like rhinos and predators to death.

I played a game with 3 contemptors with assault cannons and fists, a leviathan with dual grav bombards, and a single squad of 10 lascannons (plus various troops and whatnot) and my opponent had a Kratos, a spartan, rhinos, predators, and sicarans. In the first round alone I had destroyed the Kratos, the Spartan, and stunned most of the other vehicles. By the second round, he had nothing left but a predator cowering in the back corner.

So, to suggest they're releasing plastic vehicles to help newbies not get dominated by resin vehicles also suggests that they aren't aware of how their own ruleset works. If anything, the initial release of heavy weapons and contemptors was to help old players get up to snuff and trade up their old resin vehicles

Ehhh....do you have more "specifics" on this game? As I'm envisioning a Dawn of War/ Hammer and Anvil deployment with minimal terrain (read: Planet Bowling Ball) deployment, with maximum Imperial Fists WAAC chicanery (that's a lot of Assault Cannons) vs an unprepared and possibly inexperienced opponent). To be blunt: I think you rolled someone.

Racerguy180 wrote:
One would think that TROOPS would be low-hanging fruit.

Apparently, giving us every tank before filling out the COMPULSORY slot first was fruit laying on the ground.

Ummm, I kinda need despoilers & scrounging around in the collective bits box is getting more difficult.

Good thing you can fill compulsory infantry already then.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Gentlemen.

What exactly is it you believe I’m trying to “cope” with?

It is a fellow Brit calling you "dude" and going on about "cope". Best to just ignore them and move on.

I understand the frustration with the constant tank releases, but I think the amount of stuff (in both plastic and resin) released post the release box has been fantastic. Just it has been skewed to the elite/heavy and transport parts of the force organisation chart. But some fast attack are on the horizon and hopefully more variety of troops...then again we have 3 marks of Tactical armour in plastic already.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh my god, another tank, one we already knew was coming. Amazing.

They should have shown off the Deimos Vindicator instead!

Good point - that one really does seem like it is...next?

Maybe all of these plastics tanks is to remove the 'resin barrier' for many?

Still, would love to get some plastics assault troops and destroyers, of course.

Previewed at Adepticon sounds like a good plan there.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

The thought would be a good one, if vehicles outgunned anything or were difficult to destroy. Infantry with lascannons will make short work of any vehicle on the table, including spartans and the like. Contemptors will shred everything too, and with an assault cannon can ding lighter vehicles like rhinos and predators to death.

I played a game with 3 contemptors with assault cannons and fists, a leviathan with dual grav bombards, and a single squad of 10 lascannons (plus various troops and whatnot) and my opponent had a Kratos, a spartan, rhinos, predators, and sicarans. In the first round alone I had destroyed the Kratos, the Spartan, and stunned most of the other vehicles. By the second round, he had nothing left but a predator cowering in the back corner.

So, to suggest they're releasing plastic vehicles to help newbies not get dominated by resin vehicles also suggests that they aren't aware of how their own ruleset works. If anything, the initial release of heavy weapons and contemptors was to help old players get up to snuff and trade up their old resin vehicles

Ehhh....do you have more "specifics" on this game? As I'm envisioning a Dawn of War/ Hammer and Anvil deployment with minimal terrain (read: Planet Bowling Ball) deployment, with maximum Imperial Fists WAAC chicanery (that's a lot of Assault Cannons) vs an unprepared and possibly inexperienced opponent). To be blunt: I think you rolled someone.

I was Sons of Horus and he was Iron Warriors with an allied detachment of World Eaters. We deployed in the diagonal deployments (forget the name for that one) with pretty close to the recommended amount of terrain, possibly a bit more. I remember there being a big piece that forced my sabers to give up the first turn of shooting as they drove around it to flank, and my Heavy Support Squad was on a hill. He had a rhino and a predator behind terrain making it impossible to shoot, and my leviathan had to walk around a piece to get an angle to shoot with the grav bombards.

Both of us deployed our forces fairly exposed other than that, I just happened to roll going first. Terrain sort of forced him, specifically to, because he had a ton of tanks and limited space.

Another game, my Iron Hands opponent outflanked some tanks (or artillery?) and was able to get a round of fire off before they were destroyed. My buddies that went up against tank armies at NOVA were also un-impressed with vehicles.

I dunno, I don't think it was an isolated instance of rolling. I think it's an inherent failure of the system to make vehicles appealing. Good riddance, though, infantry for life.

 Rihgu wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A thought occurs. And it’s only a thought, not a claim, rumour or news.

Maybe the tank intensive release schedule is to allow newcomers to avoid being hideously outgunned by longer term players?

Entirely anecdotal, but the folks I know who’ve been playing Heresy since it first released (literally. We were in the mad dash at Games Day 201….3?) already have vast resin armies, and plenty of Spartans, Cerberus etc

So my thought here is if I was limited to just infantry, Dreadnoughts and Predators, I’d risk being somewhat outgunned?

Still want assault troops of course.

The thought would be a good one, if vehicles outgunned anything or were difficult to destroy. Infantry with lascannons will make short work of any vehicle on the table, including spartans and the like. Contemptors will shred everything too, and with an assault cannon can ding lighter vehicles like rhinos and predators to death.

I played a game with 3 contemptors with assault cannons and fists, a leviathan with dual grav bombards, and a single squad of 10 lascannons (plus various troops and whatnot) and my opponent had a Kratos, a spartan, rhinos, predators, and sicarans. In the first round alone I had destroyed the Kratos, the Spartan, and stunned most of the other vehicles. By the second round, he had nothing left but a predator cowering in the back corner.

So, to suggest they're releasing plastic vehicles to help newbies not get dominated by resin vehicles also suggests that they aren't aware of how their own ruleset works. If anything, the initial release of heavy weapons and contemptors was to help old players get up to snuff and trade up their old resin vehicles

Ehhh....do you have more "specifics" on this game? As I'm envisioning a Dawn of War/ Hammer and Anvil deployment with minimal terrain (read: Planet Bowling Ball) deployment, with maximum Imperial Fists WAAC chicanery (that's a lot of Assault Cannons) vs an unprepared and possibly inexperienced opponent). To be blunt: I think you rolled someone.

I was Sons of Horus and he was Iron Warriors with an allied detachment of World Eaters. We deployed in the diagonal deployments (forget the name for that one) with pretty close to the recommended amount of terrain, possibly a bit more. I remember there being a big piece that forced my sabers to give up the first turn of shooting as they drove around it to flank, and my Heavy Support Squad was on a hill. He had a rhino and a predator behind terrain making it impossible to shoot, and my leviathan had to walk around a piece to get an angle to shoot with the grav bombards.

Both of us deployed our forces fairly exposed other than that, I just happened to roll going first. Terrain sort of forced him, specifically to, because he had a ton of tanks and limited space.

Another game, my Iron Hands opponent outflanked some tanks (or artillery?) and was able to get a round of fire off before they were destroyed. My buddies that went up against tank armies at NOVA were also un-impressed with vehicles.

I dunno, I don't think it was an isolated instance of rolling. I think it's an inherent failure of the system to make vehicles appealing. Good riddance, though, infantry for life.

Then how the hell did you have 3 Contemptors with assault cannons, if you were Sons of Horus? I'm smelling something......

Kheres Gad.

Yes, Kheres Assault Cannon. Is there... another kind? besides rotor cannons, which are not really assault cannons except sort of in appearance, I guess.

Blood Angels and Imperial Fists can take more 40k style versions instead of heavy flamers which means Dreads can take them in their fist.

 Gert wrote:
Kheres Gad.

Ack. Ok. Fine. But please agree with me Gert, that "Kheres assault cannons" and "Assault Cannons" are two different things. And still, there must have been absolutely practically no terrain at all to get the described results.

 Gert wrote:
Blood Angels and Imperial Fists can take more 40k style versions instead of heavy flamers which means Dreads can take them in their fist.

Oh, interesting. Kheres had the same stats as I remember from 7th edition's Assault Cannon, so I assumed it was just a fancy name for the same gun. Or I misremembered 7th edition's stats.

And still, there must have been absolutely practically no terrain at all to get the described results.

I mean, there was enough to impact the game's deployment and movement? If there was more terrain, what, he would've deployed behind it, got 1 turn of shooting which would've done next to nothing to my dreadnoughts/lascannons in cover, and then died for being out in the open? I dunno man, I've had the same story repeat itself across enough games that I don't think it is the terrain's problem.

But, I'll try to convince my friend to play a few games with a 5" tall wall of line of sight blocking terrain across the middle, see if it makes him like vehicles any more.

That Leviathan had an effective range of 18". Those Contemptors? 24". That's a hell of a small board by 30k standards. Sounds kinda anemic. TBOH. Did you roll for it?