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It's badly worded for sure, but it seems very clear the intent is that you are not allowed to get miracle dice from any sources if you aren't pure.

However as many a ymdc concludes intent cannot be proven and so you are left with the bad wording whether it works as intended or not


I think it's clear that it does not stop you useing miracle dice

It is also clear that it does not apply to cherub dice as their not miracle dice

And it is clear that it does not apply to the battle sanctum as it does not have the acts of faith rule and acts of faith is not army wide

It is clear it prevents the gaining miracle dice box options for gaining miracle dice

For others RAW they can and RAI they shouldnt

You stating that "RAW they can" doesn't make that statement true. I wholeheartedly disagree with your 'interpretation' of RAW. Every instance of gaining a miracle dice on a datasheet refers to page 91. There under "gaining miracle dice" it is explained how and what gaining a miracle dice is. In that section, a clause is included that you can only gain the miracle dice if all of your units are having the Adepted Sororitas keyword, excluding some exceptions. That is RAW. If you would gain a Miracle dice but don't comply with the clause, you do not gain the miracle dice.

You just choose to skip that paragraph and skip straight to the rolling of the dice. That is not RAW. I'll leave the discussion at this, because I for sure won't change my point of view and I doubt you will and it just clutters up this topic needlessly.

I agree that Cherub dice are something else and work just fine in a soup army. They have a different name for a reason after all.

Has anyone had any success bring an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or Hector Rex in a Sisters Army? If so would you mind sharing how you made use of them in your army? Thanks

Celestians still get to take 2 special weapons in a 5-girl squad, right? I've been struggling to think how they can possibly justify their spot in the crowded elites slot, but 2 special weapons and 2 attacks each for only 1 point more than a Battle Sister isn't too bad if you have the slots to spare. Of course, for only a bit more you can get Dominions instead for twice as much firepower and in a much less contested slot...

Celestians and Dominions are very different units with very different uses. Dominions are for bringing a several special weapons to bear on a target as quickly as possible. Dominions are for protecting your characters along with quality shooting and quantity of melee attacks with some staying power (as opposed to Repentia that have lots of attacks with little staying power).

 alextroy wrote:
Celestians and Dominions are very different units with very different uses. Dominions are for bringing a several special weapons to bear on a target as quickly as possible. Dominions are for protecting your characters along with quality shooting and quantity of melee attacks with some staying power (as opposed to Repentia that have lots of attacks with little staying power).

I know it's a typo but I kinda think it illustrates the flaws of Celestians. Dominions are better at facilitating offense characters. With the changes to bodyguard making them essentially just ignore snipers(which have fallen out of vogue) dominions protect characters almost as well as celestians. Celestians have better melee, but that only matters in large bloody rose units where the difference isn't .5 wounds vs 1 wound. With the loss of imagifier's rend-1 ignore bubble, saying Celestians have 'staying power' is kind of a stretch.

Celestians try to be as good at shooting as dominions and as good at supporting melee characters as sacresants at the same time and just end up being bad at both.

alextroy wrote:Celestians and Dominions are very different units with very different uses. Dominions are for bringing a several special weapons to bear on a target as quickly as possible. Dominions are for protecting your characters along with quality shooting and quantity of melee attacks with some staying power (as opposed to Repentia that have lots of attacks with little staying power).

Agree

ERJAK wrote:[...] saying Celestians have 'staying power' is kind of a stretch.

Celestians try to be as good at shooting as dominions and as good at supporting melee characters as sacresants at the same time and just end up being bad at both.

"some" staying power compared to repentia. I don't think anyone is arguing they have great staying power, no more than any other sister apart from Sacresants.

As mentioned they have different use, Dominions deliver more special weapons quickly and there are better units for character melee support.

I think they're better used around a non-melee Canoness/Palatine (eg a support WL you don't want to throw in a fight) to contest the mid-board (with other units). They have +1 to hit around them, so a squad with MM/MG (and possibly combi-flamer for Trinity) has pretty effective shooting while being decent in melee if they get charged. Add in a Dogmata and they can be ObSec if necessary.

Sure, they got downgraded a bit but they are certainly useful if you try to use them for what they can do.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, what do we think is the best melee option for Paragon Warsuits (setting aside, for the moment, whether or not they are worth playing)? Reason I ask is because it doesn't look like it'll be easy to magnetize at all, in fact probably impossible to do so, ergo I want the best option for my suits. I'm leaning toward the maces actually; yes they suffer a hit penalty but 3 damage is very nice, and usually when I play them Morvenn will be around to give them the reroll buff, mitigating said penalty.

The other weapons look as though they should be pretty straightforward to magnetize, so no problems there.

I'd lean towards the swords. The swords also give you +1A, so really the comparison is;
Sword
Str6 ap-3 D2 4A
Mace
Str9 ap-2 D3 3A (-1 hit)

Unless your meta is heavy -1D I think the Sword is better, the Morvenn buff improves the sword loadout too so it's not a great reason to justify the mace.

But to be honest the unit is significantly underpowered and without a strong points decrease(or +1w) they just won't function competitively. Unless you are planning to not face DE or adMech which.. doesn't seem likely.

I'd just model it with whatever you think looks coolest, by the time the unit gets buffed who knows what the meta will look like, so just run rule of cool for them and play them casually.

My loadout for them is swords, 2 MM and 1 HF with stormbolters for a decent holy trinity unit.

Maces are a better choice if you intend to Hymn them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, what do we think is the best melee option for Paragon Warsuits? Reason I ask is because it doesn't look like it'll be easy to magnetize at all, in fact probably impossible to do so, ergo I want the best option for my suits.

The other weapons look as though they should be pretty straightforward to magnetize, so no problems there.

They are not actually impossible to magnetize, just difficult, and it will leave a little bit of a gap. The Superior is no issue as you're magnetizing the wrist; the other two you're essentially drilling through the handle of the sword/mace and into the palm of the hand. My first one was a little messy, the other fits (almost) perfectly. I've attached pictures.

For the other main weapon, if you're really careful with the gluing, they stay in place just fine. I dry-fit the gun on the end of the arm, glued the arm into the socket, then dry-fit the shoulder piece on and glued the tubing to the gun. Then you can slip the whole gun assembly off the gun arm pretty easily. I checked repeatedly while it was drying to make sure the fit was tight, and it seems to be holding up.

**Edit: Didn't realize attached pictures showed up like that, my bad for the long post.

Nvm

Archebius wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, what do we think is the best melee option for Paragon Warsuits? Reason I ask is because it doesn't look like it'll be easy to magnetize at all, in fact probably impossible to do so, ergo I want the best option for my suits.

The other weapons look as though they should be pretty straightforward to magnetize, so no problems there.

They are not actually impossible to magnetize, just difficult, and it will leave a little bit of a gap. The Superior is no issue as you're magnetizing the wrist; the other two you're essentially drilling through the handle of the sword/mace and into the palm of the hand. My first one was a little messy, the other fits (almost) perfectly. I've attached pictures.

For the other main weapon, if you're really careful with the gluing, they stay in place just fine. I dry-fit the gun on the end of the arm, glued the arm into the socket, then dry-fit the shoulder piece on and glued the tubing to the gun. Then you can slip the whole gun assembly off the gun arm pretty easily. I checked repeatedly while it was drying to make sure the fit was tight, and it seems to be holding up.

**Edit: Didn't realize attached pictures showed up like that, my bad for the long post.

That works better than I thought. I'm not going to try magnetizing the melee weapons as I don't like the gap, but I do like the suggestion for gluing the tubing on the main guns so they just dry fit. My original plan was to dry fit the gun piece, but magnetize the part that attaches to the shoulder. I might end up doing a combination of the ideas, using a magnet to hold the shoulder part in place better but gluing the tubing so it looks better. Might help with stability. Cheers for the ideas!

And @Punisher: I had forgotten about the +1 attack from the swords, so that's what I'm going with. Definitely better than the maces as a TAC option.

What's the current thinking on Mortifiers vs. Penitent Engines and loadouts?

Mortifiers can't advance and charge anymore (Penitents gaining the natural ability to do so), but fight after death on a 4+ and have the better WS/BS.

Flails went down a point of Strength, and now only double the number of attacks, making them much less of the obvious choice. Heavy flamers gained a point of strength, and all Ministorum units get access to the max shots with flame weapons stratagem.

My gut tells me Penitents with heavy flamers and saws are the best offensive option to try to get to something meaty, while the Mortifiers are better as a counter-punch with flails and flamers against enemy melee units.

Thoughts?

Archebius wrote:
What's the current thinking on Mortifiers vs. Penitent Engines and loadouts?

Mortifiers can't advance and charge anymore (Penitents gaining the natural ability to do so), but fight after death on a 4+ and have the better WS/BS.

Flails went down a point of Strength, and now only double the number of attacks, making them much less of the obvious choice. Heavy flamers gained a point of strength, and all Ministorum units get access to the max shots with flame weapons stratagem.

My gut tells me Penitents with heavy flamers and saws are the best offensive option to try to get to something meaty, while the Mortifiers are better as a counter-punch with flails and flamers against enemy melee units.

Thoughts?

I think both have their uses. Pengines are cheaper (though not much) and can advance + charge, although to me that should only be done sparingly as you want all those flamers firing as much as possible. Give them the buzzblades as they can first flame the little gribblies like Ork Boyz and Tyranids, then charge and beat up tougher stuff like vehicles or monsters. Mortifiers are probably good with just about any loadout. With Heavy Bolters they can make decent ranged platforms and can threaten plenty of 2 wound models like Marines, with the melee weapons acting as the counterpunch threat. I personally lean toward flails on them as their melee weapon of choice, as it seems like it combos well with their fight on death ability.

I must admit I kind of like the idea of taking 3x4 of each and just running them at the enemy. Coupled with some ranged threats (Argent Shroud Retributors, Paragons, perhaps even an Exorcist or two) that could be potent for the same reasons as an older build that ran the DKoK pony club together with Retributors was.

So with the new codex is it time for a new thread?

BrianDavion wrote:
So with the new codex is it time for a new thread?

Sure seems like one

BrianDavion wrote:
So with the new codex is it time for a new thread?

Wouldn't hurt, and maybe we should start with some kind of a tier list for our units, stratagems, Order Convictions, etc.

I'd probably just stick with units atm... But it's not a bad idea

Welp, talking about stuff is cheap, time to make like an Argent shroud and act!

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Archebius wrote:
What's the current thinking on Mortifiers vs. Penitent Engines and loadouts?

Mortifiers can't advance and charge anymore (Penitents gaining the natural ability to do so), but fight after death on a 4+ and have the better WS/BS.

Flails went down a point of Strength, and now only double the number of attacks, making them much less of the obvious choice. Heavy flamers gained a point of strength, and all Ministorum units get access to the max shots with flame weapons stratagem.

My gut tells me Penitents with heavy flamers and saws are the best offensive option to try to get to something meaty, while the Mortifiers are better as a counter-punch with flails and flamers against enemy melee units.

Thoughts?

I think both have their uses. Pengines are cheaper (though not much) and can advance + charge, although to me that should only be done sparingly as you want all those flamers firing as much as possible. Give them the buzzblades as they can first flame the little gribblies like Ork Boyz and Tyranids, then charge and beat up tougher stuff like vehicles or monsters. Mortifiers are probably good with just about any loadout. With Heavy Bolters they can make decent ranged platforms and can threaten plenty of 2 wound models like Marines, with the melee weapons acting as the counterpunch threat. I personally lean toward flails on them as their melee weapon of choice, as it seems like it combos well with their fight on death ability.

I must admit I kind of like the idea of taking 3x4 of each and just running them at the enemy. Coupled with some ranged threats (Argent Shroud Retributors, Paragons, perhaps even an Exorcist or two) that could be potent for the same reasons as an older build that ran the DKoK pony club together with Retributors was.

Don't forget mortifiers have the Adepta Sororitas keyword, so they have access to some strats the P.Engines don't. In addition Mortifiers can generate a Miracle die from destroying enemy units and P.Engines can't. I think it just comes down to if you want heavy flamers or heavy bolters when deciding between the 2. I've found a lot of use from the heavy bolters so I'll stick with mortifiers. For the melee options, I think the flails were over nerfed so I'd just go with buzz blades. Think the flails are only good vs hordes now and if that's your meta you should probably be looking at arcoflags.