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Below is the full text of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

Brotherhood of Psykers

Units of Grey Knights are Psykers and use their mental might to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.

A Grey Knights unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single Psyker and follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarifications:

- A Grey Knights unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independent character for Psychic tests.

- If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets Psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

When an independent character joins a unit, he becomes a part of that unit for all intents and purposes. Special Rules are either shared or lost while the character is with the unit depending on the rule, and the unit moves and acts as a whole. Nothing in Brotherhood of Psykers specifically excludes characters joined to the unit from casting the power with them. It only excludes them as a candidate to make the Psychic test and for Perils/anti-Psyker attacks.

So the underlined portion above would seem to imply that when a Grey Knight Librarian joins a unit of Grey Knights (any kind), because he is part of that unit, he must follow Brotherhood of Psykers. This means that if the unit casts Hammerhand, the Librarian casts Hammerhand with them and cannot cast it again (per the new Psyker FAQ). Additionally, if the Librarian casts Hammerhand, the unit casts it with him and his Leadership cannot be used per Brotherhood of Psykers. The Justicar/Knight of the Flame's Leadership is always used, and after that the unit if the Justicar is Dead but never an attached character. Perils tests are taken against the Justicar/Knight of the Flame, and then a random non-character model, making it impossible for the Librarian to suffer Perils until he is on his own.

Additionally, because the Librarian cast Hammerhand with the unit, it used one of his Psychic Powers for the turn, and the units ONLY psychic power for the turn. He could not cast his second power, because the unit would cast it with him and they do not have sufficient Mastery Level to do so.

This would be the case no matter how many Independent Characters join a Grey Knights unit. If you have 10 Purifiers with a Grandmaster, a Librarian, and 3x Techmarines all joined to it, they would all cast powers together per Brotherhood of Psykers, and apparently be limited in the number of powers they can cast by the lowest Mastery Level.

I've checked all of the necessary references in the FAQ, the Rulebook and the Codex and I cannot find anything that gets around this, so it would seem that by the RAW, Psykers in Grey Knights armies are significantly hindered by Brotherhood of Psykers.

Of course I'm pretty sure this goes against RAI, and I seriously doubt that most people would play this way, but since we primarily discuss RAW on these forums I figured I would bring it up in the hopes that if GW ever does a second revision on the Grey Knights codex, they will include a fix for this (or uphold it if they really want it to be that way).

So, can anyone think of a reason why this is NOT the case? Please be ready to back up your arguments.

The specific Mastery levels rules would override BoP

Yeah, this isn't the case... because the ICs don't have the 'Brotherhood of Psykers' rule. Which kinda kills the rest of your argument.

Not all special rules are gained/lost when an IC joins a unit. BoP isn't specified in the same way that Fearless, Infiltrate, etc are. Otherwise, you're stuck trying to argue that other special rules (such as The Perfect Warrior, or Psyker [Mastery Level 2]) are gained or lost when the IC joins a unit.

An important clarification is printed in the GK codex, pg. 54, in the Nemesis Force Weapons entery under Force Weapons:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

Force weapons give their user a new power to use, which is the activation of the force weapon, as stated in the BRB under Force Weapons. Since BoP allows the use of only one power per turn, and NFW activation is a power, then the activation of a units NFW (including any IC) should be that one power per turn that can be used. However, any IC must roll separately to activate, which means that there is a chance either the IC or the unit might fail to activate their NFW, which means that it is possible for only some but not all of the models in the unit to have succeeded in using a power. If IC have to use their powers separately from a BoP unit, then it stands to reason that any character with a Psychic Mastery Level may chose to not use the same power as the BoP unit they are attached to. Hammerhand allows all models in the unit (including IC) to benefit from the activiation of the power, which may be cast by an IC or the BoP unit. This implies that an IC with PML2 that is attached to a BoP unit can cast Hammerhand and activate his NFW in the same turn (PML rule), while the BoP unit can activate their NFW (BoP rule), and all models in that unit gain the benefits of Hammerhand.

That means that no, BoP does not override PML, nor does PML override BoP. Each special rules stands on its own.

We do have a special cast with three different GK units, however. Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, Thawn and his GKT squad, and Paladins.

Mordrak, if Ghost Knights are bought, is considered an upgrade character for the squad of Ghost Knights. Mordrak is PML1, while the Ghosts are BoP. If both rules stand alone and do not override the other, Mordrak's squad may use up to two powers per turn (one from Mordrak, one from the unit of Ghost Knights),but only if we ignore the missing Justicar/Knight of the Flame.

Thawn is the Justicar of his squad of GKT. Thawn is PML2, while his squad is BoP. By the example above, Thawn's squad should be able to cast up to 3 powers per turn. His squad has access, however, to only two powers (Hammerhand and Force Weapon activation). As such, Thawn may cast Hammerhand and activate his squad's NFW, and not much else.

Paladins are BoP, and have three powers (Hammerhand, Holocaust, and Force Weapon activation). However, they have no Justicar or Knight of the Flame. Per BoP as written, Paladins as unable to use any of their powers (just like Mordrak's Ghost Knights). From a rules as practical point of view, Paladins can use one of their three powers every turn.

SJ

You dont need to ignore the missing justicar, the rule states to use another random model if needed - like with Perils. The parenthesis gives an example where you wouldnt have a justicar - he's dead - but does not institute a requirement.

And, as Mordrak is an upgrade character, that cannot ever be him (from the squads test, anyway!)

Brotherhood of Psykers

Units of Grey Knights are Psykers and use their mental might to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.

A Grey Knights unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single Psyker and follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarifications:

- A Grey Knights unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independent character for Psychic tests.

- If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets Psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

jeffersonian000 wrote:

Paladins are BoP, and have three powers (Hammerhand, Holocaust, and Force Weapon activation). However, they have no Justicar or Knight of the Flame. Per BoP as written, Paladins as unable to use any of their powers (just like Mordrak's Ghost Knights). From a rules as practical point of view, Paladins can use one of their three powers every turn.

SJ

Firstly, I 'think', not sure cause I don't have the codex in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Paladins have Justicars. But even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. Psychic tests only have to be taken by a Justicar/Knight of Flame if there is one available. If there isn't one available, anyone else in the squad can take the test.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed that I said I wasn't sure, but that I was pretty sure. Sorry 'bout the poor grammer.

jeffersonian000 wrote:An important clarification is printed in the GK codex, pg. 54, in the Nemesis Force Weapons entery under Force Weapons:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

Force weapons give their user a new power to use, which is the activation of the force weapon, as stated in the BRB under Force Weapons. Since BoP allows the use of only one power per turn, and NFW activation is a power, then the activation of a units NFW (including any IC) should be that one power per turn that can be used. However, any IC must roll separately to activate, which means that there is a chance either the IC or the unit might fail to activate their NFW, which means that it is possible for only some but not all of the models in the unit to have succeeded in using a power. If IC have to use their powers separately from a BoP unit, then it stands to reason that any character with a Psychic Mastery Level may chose to not use the same power as the BoP unit they are attached to. Hammerhand allows all models in the unit (including IC) to benefit from the activiation of the power, which may be cast by an IC or the BoP unit. This implies that an IC with PML2 that is attached to a BoP unit can cast Hammerhand and activate his NFW in the same turn (PML rule), while the BoP unit can activate their NFW (BoP rule), and all models in that unit gain the benefits of Hammerhand.

That means that no, BoP does not override PML, nor does PML override BoP. Each special rules stands on its own.

We do have a special cast with three different GK units, however. Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, Thawn and his GKT squad, and Paladins.

Mordrak, if Ghost Knights are bought, is considered an upgrade character for the squad of Ghost Knights. Mordrak is PML1, while the Ghosts are BoP. If both rules stand alone and do not override the other, Mordrak's squad may use up to two powers per turn (one from Mordrak, one from the unit of Ghost Knights),but only if we ignore the missing Justicar/Knight of the Flame.

Thawn is the Justicar of his squad of GKT. Thawn is PML2, while his squad is BoP. By the example above, Thawn's squad should be able to cast up to 3 powers per turn. His squad has access, however, to only two powers (Hammerhand and Force Weapon activation). As such, Thawn may cast Hammerhand and activate his squad's NFW, and not much else.

Paladins are BoP, and have three powers (Hammerhand, Holocaust, and Force Weapon activation). However, they have no Justicar or Knight of the Flame. Per BoP as written, Paladins as unable to use any of their powers (just like Mordrak's Ghost Knights). From a rules as practical point of view, Paladins can use one of their three powers every turn.

SJ

Nice research and breakdown!! Works withing the rules and also earns the sounds like the fluff award as well. Hahahahaha!

Argument withdrawn. This is what happens when you are reading your codex late at night on not enough sleep. In my defense, a friend of mine originally pointed this out, and by his own admission he was coming down from a high, which should have been my first clue lol.

So, in regard to Mordrak, his unit can cast Hammerhand through BoP and then he can cast Hammerhand because he is not a part of the BoP, regardless of him being an upgrade character or not. Correct?

Correct. He, himself, does not have BoP but Mastery level 1

I'd also like to point out that Paladins can be purchased in units of one, making them the only GK BoP unit that can exist as a single model unit. This effectively makes a single model Paladin a character (as noted in the BRB), which per BoP, can never be give a Perils of the Warp wound. Pretty interesting loop hole.

SJ

No, it does not make them a character. My Dreadknight, a single model unit, is NOT a character.

Hmmm... interesting. Well, while a librarian attached to, say, a terminator unit counts as being a GKT member, he does not get the brotherhood of psyker rule, as squad special rules do not apply to attached characters unless the special rule says it does.

My take: While the unit counts as a single psyker, and can make one psychic test, this benefit/restriction DOES NOT apply to an attached character, as special rules are not passed on to ICs unless the rule says it does. SO--Attached libbys for example are bound by neither the restrictions nor the benefits of the BoP rules, and can cast their own powers with no interaction.

Does thrawn have the Brotherhood of psykers special rule?