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warbikes are pretty ace

A lot of people are fans of minimum units of boyz in trukks. That's pretty much what I go with, or I'll put 20 in a wagon. Just another box of boyz should do it tbh.

As for solid units Lootas are definitely some of the best the orks have to offer. Tankbustas and Meganobz are another great choice for armor killing goodness.

Meganobz, Tankbustas, Lobbas, Lootas, Kannons are all good choices. I would consider these in that order, but take your pick! the Meganobz need a trukk badly, bustas might want one but the lootas are OK without.

Oh, and if you have been following PipeAlley's multiple-warboss games you might just try that...unfortunately there is no mega armoed warboss model so you have to use Ghazzy or just kitbatsh some of your own.

Yeah it's unfortunate about the Mega Boss, but one of my friends sent me a link to a Kromlech model that looks like it would serve just fine as a Mega Boss

Or just use meganobz for megabosses. It's not like you'll be fielding meganobz in this kind of list. It's what I'll be doing for sure.

 davou wrote:
anyone else excited for the supposed changes comming in 8th!?

Definitely!

Already sounds like some of the proposed rules could mean a big boost...

Imagine getting something like 3rd edition choppas back?

Ashkayel wrote:
Or just use meganobz for megabosses. It's not like you'll be fielding meganobz in this kind of list. It's what I'll be doing for sure.

A MANz missile wouldn't be too out of place in the list I don't think.

 War Kitten wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:
Or just use meganobz for megabosses. It's not like you'll be fielding meganobz in this kind of list. It's what I'll be doing for sure.

A MANz missile wouldn't be too out of place in the list I don't think.

Seems like a bit redundant to me. I'd rather field support and mobility to complement the MAWB trukks.

 War Kitten wrote:
Alright, so Boyz and Trukks plus a few more Deffkoptas. Are there any more "must have" units? I know from my few games against Orks that Lootas seem to still be a decent choice

Oh. And exactly how many Boyz should I shoot to pick up ideally?

Exactly how much time and money do you want to spend on this hobby, exactly? Honestly, most of us Ork players might have other armies, but you always go back to them and you ALWAYS need more boyz.
But more seriously, if you want to aim for, say, a 2000pt list, about 60 boyz on foot is a nice target. Unless you want to do a Zhardsnark biker list. But even then, you'll still want some tankbustas or trukkboyz.

Yeah... I always say start with 60 boyz and then see what else is fun. I like Battlewagons, so I gave 6 of them. I also like the walkers, so I have a Dread Mob.
But start with 60 boys

I always thought maxing out boyz in trukks was the way to go. And for me, 'eavy armors were mandatory, since the new codex. A full 'ard boyz trukk with a PK BP nob is 195 pts and IMO that was the best choice for trukk boyz. 'Eavy armors protect you from explosions, mob rule, from small arms fire, in close combat, etc.

However, in the spirit of trukk spam and MSU lists, I see the point of fielding naked boyz instead of 'ard boyz. Do you prefer having 3 'ard boyz trukk (585 pts) or 4 boyz trukk (588 pts)? Depends on your list, I guess.

And most recently, I've seen people using 10 boyz (with nob) in trukks instead of 12. And I wondered why. Why not max out your number of boyz? I guess that in a MSU list, that's 12 points less for each trukk. And if your only goal is get that PK nob into close combat, these 2 boyz might not be really worth it.

But I thought about something else: exploding results and morale check! 10- and 12-boyz squads both need 3 losses for a morale check. If your trukk explodes, that's 2 less hits you get! That advantage is mostly visible with 'eavy armors.

I've calculated the difference between a 10 'ard boyz exploding trukk (9 + nob) and a 12 'ard boyz one (11 + nob). I went for average rolls for easier calculations (for example, a mob rule D6 hits has 50% chances of getting 3 hits and 50% of getting 4 hits). I've taken into account pinning check and ensuing losses to mob rule, whether or not the nob gets a wound (one less dead boy), etc. Here are the results:

11 'ard boyz + nob in an exploding trukk:
Ready to go: 72.8% with 3.1 boyz lost
Pinned: 11.6% with 3.2 boyz lost
Fall back: 15.5% with 3.2 boyz lost

9 'ard boyz + nob in an exploding trukk:
Ready to go: 74.1% (+1.3) with 2.5 boyz lost (-0.6)
Pinned: 17.3% (+5.7) with 2.3 boyz lost (-0.9)
Fall back: 8.6% (-7.0) with 3.2 boyz lost (=)

All in all, by having fewer boyz in an exploding trukk, you stay put more often, you're pinned more often, and you fall back less often, all that with 0.6 less lost boyz. And of course, that's 20 pts cheaper. Pretty awesome!

These benefits will still apply with naked boyz in trukks, but won't be as important. They are more based on lucky rolls; it's harder to lose only 2 boyz in an explosion without 'eavy armors, it won't happen with average rolls. The calculations are also more complicated, that's why I won't do it!

Anyway, I find these results pretty awesome. I will definitely bring 10-boyz trukks more often!

What do you guys think?

The only reason I bring ten Boyz in a Trukk is to fit the MAWB.

I like the math you did. Here's a comparison between a PK Nob vs a MAWB, both with BP:

Nob is 46 points vs MAWB is 105

Right off the bat you can get twice as many Nobs as MAWB's. Sounds good so far. Here's what you get for the extra 59 points:
+1 to WS, S, T, W, I, A
+2 to Ld
2+ armor save with a 2+ LoS and the ability for the MAWB to ditch depleted units that can either sacrifice themselves charging into Overwatch or claim an objective somewhere while the MAWB attaches to another, fuller Boyz mob or even a Deffkopta.

Backing up a bit the higher WS means your always-Str-10-attacks will hit more often and do more damage especially to vehicles while your extra wound and T will allow you to survive and/or accept challenges a Nob could never hope to survive.

And thens there's the most important flaw in the current Ork Codex: Leadership! The +2 can mean the difference between fleeing after and exploded Trukk or Gork-forbid lost close combat phase or passing. The slightly higher Int would make it easier for any Boyz or Deffkoptas without an attached MAWB Sweeping Advance. Also my favorite tactic is to chain multi assault as many units as possible especially vehicles due to the fact that each Pentrating Hit counts as 2 wounds for CC resolution. For some odd reason the rules allow you to get more Pens than the vehicle has HP's. Pile on 10 Str 10 auto Pens onto that Chimera and watch the opponent take Ld 2 test for each unit.

I'd like to see the comparison between MAWB lead Boyz in Trukks vs either Eavy Armour PK WB with PK Nobs and/or Painboyz.

U know what Ive been thinking, and I hate to say it cause I love MANz.

I think Id much rather, in most scenarios, take Min bustas with Pk nob than MANz. Not sure how the math works out but thinking the Bustas are much more versatile and can kinda do the things you need MANz to do on occasion with the Nob. Obviously super glass cannon but so is most everything else in the codex.

Most lists Ive been building max out elites with bustas and nob claw.

Havent had ton of time to play games but if anyone wants to try the list out and lemme know what they think:

+ HQ +

Painboy [75pts]: Warbike

Warboss [140pts]: Bosspole, Gift: Da Lucky Stikk, Power Klaw, Slugga, Warbike

+ Troops +

Boyz [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Bosspole, Power Klaw, Slugga
·· 9x Boy
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

Boyz [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Bosspole, Power Klaw, Slugga
·· 9x Boy
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

+ Elites +

Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha

+ Fast Attack +

Warbikers [287pts]
·· 13x Warbiker
·· Warbiker Nob: Power Klaw

Warbuggies [125pts]
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha

Warbuggies [125pts]
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha
·· Warbuggy: Twin-linked Rockit Launcha

+ Heavy Support +

Mek Gunz [99pts]: 3x Ammo Runt, 3x Kustom Mega-kannon

Mek Gunz [90pts]: 5x Lobba

Mek Gunz [99pts]: 3x Ammo Runt, 3x Kustom Mega-kannon

++ Total: [1850pts] ++

How are you taking 4 elites? The max is 3.

Maybe using the detachment from ghazghkull supplement, that allows 5 elite slots if I remember correctly.

 Blackie wrote:
Maybe using the detachment from ghazghkull supplement, that allows 5 elite slots if I remember correctly.

4

Just wist we got more HS or FA

Painboys as upgrades for Nob units again... please. That would force me to buy 3-4 of the plastic Painboy kit and make Nobs usable.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Painboys as upgrades for Nob units again... please. That would force me to buy 3-4 of the plastic Painboy kit and make Nobs usable.

Heck, if Painboys were like slotless Meks, I'd take them every game.
Or, you know, give all Orks FNP 6+, and allow Painboyz to improve that. I can dream, right?

We'll see what happens in 8th edition.

 Cleatus wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Painboys as upgrades for Nob units again... please. That would force me to buy 3-4 of the plastic Painboy kit and make Nobs usable.

Heck, if Painboys were like slotless Meks, I'd take them every game.
Or, you know, give all Orks FNP 6+, and allow Painboyz to improve that. I can dream, right?

We'll see what happens in 8th edition.

I've been playing Nurgle Demons in AoS and I love how the whole army has FNP.

Not a lot of offensive power but insane durability.

Orks could be that army in 40K as you described. Cybork body could either add one more up to 3+ or just revert to 5++ Inv. Nob Bikers could ride again!!!

Painboys as standard HQs are among the few buffs orks had with 7th ed. A painboy with boyz, meganobz or bikers is way more efficient than a painboy in a unit of nobz.

Nobz models are good only to lead units of boyz IMHO as I can't stand the nob that can be built from the boyz kit.

I don't see how they can be a viable unit in the future.

The whole system of instant death needs to be reworked. There's too many high str/instant death weapons now in 40k where every new fancy character has eternal warrior to compensate. This leaves multi wound non independent characters, that can be hidden/look out sir! to mooks, at the bottom of the barrel. Ork nobz, Tyranids warriors, Ogryns, even centurions to a lesser extent.

Slotless painboys would be awesome, but army-wide fnp would actually be more fluffy. It would fix much of the overcosting we currently have. Is a shoota boy worth 7 points? no, but a 5+ fnp shoota boy is.

6 pts boy with Choppa / Slugga with 6+ save isn't that overcosted - or overcosted at all.

14 pts Marine has WS/BS 4, S4, T4, 1W, 1A, Ld8, 3+ Armor
6 Ork has WS4, BS4, S3, 4 on Charge, T4, 3A, Ld7, 6+, aka 5+ Cover.

Stat for stat you're paying for less durability, less shooting potential, and more attacks for half the cost.

Even when you compare it to Shoota Boys you're looking at Assault 2 weapons with 18" range at BS2. That's 55% hit chance on average. When compared to Rapid Fire 24" Bolters. That's 1 hit on 66% hit chance unless you are in charge range.

Armor save vs Cover Save is a big difference, but with 2 Attacks base compared to 1 Attack at a half price discount. I'll take boys. FNP just makes the comparison ridiculous.

I won't even comment on the AP6 or better / Ignore Cover aspects since there are almost just as much AP3 weaponry out there that has the potential to Ignore Cover as well.

Raw statlines completely ignore the fact that assaulting requires waiting around to be shot generally for 2 turns, only 1 if you're very lucky. Shooty units are useful starting from the very first turn, and are easier to keep alive when you can opt to camp them in cover rather than cross an empty stretch of table. Assault units should never reach their intended targets wholly intact, Ork Boyz least of all after basic Nid troops, though the latter cost even less and have much easier access to AoE stealth and/or shrouded from the venomthrope.

It's still 6 pts compared to 14 pts on a T4 body. I'll take double the wounds and not complain about the point differential and say they are overcosted.

Let me be clear, I think Ork Boyz suck. I also think Tactical Marines suck. They both die too easy and rarely impact the game through shooting and/or charging. But that is a reflection on the game of 7th edition. There is a huge power curve and troops are on the lowest end of the spectrum.

I was simply pointing out they aren't overcosted. They are point efficient. Adding FNP doesn't make them appropriately point costed, it makes them undercosted. It shifts regular Ork Boyz from tax to durable and worth playing. As a comparison, if you take away Scatter Lasers from Windriders, they become point efficient. They are no longer undercosted. With Scatter Lasers they perform well in every category. Without they are still expensive Marines that move faster than normal, have a low shooting range, and come with a price tag.

Boyz for 6-7 pts each is point appropriate. Giving them FNP shifts them from point appropriate to under costed - as it would give them a shift in power.

I hope that makes it a little bit more clear.

Ork boyz and tactical marines don't suck, troops should be average units. It's eldar bikes that make no sense and they shouldn't be troops but fast attacks.

You would take Tacticals (non-Gladius) or Ork Boyz if you didn't have to?

The thing is that Space Marines (in a CAD at least) have another option instead of tacticals that can fulfill a similar role as tacticals, they're called scouts (Black Templars can take Crusader squads too). Ork boyz perform a role of melee anti-infantry/objective camping that nothing else in the codex does as well. In a CAD you can choose not to take tacticals, you can choose not to take boyz, because there are other troop choices. But SM's other troop choices are also fairly durable objective-camping with versatility added by special weapons. The other troop orks get are T2 LD5 armorless grots.

So yes, I'd take boyz even if I didn't have to, if only because they do their job better than nobs do.

Saythings wrote:
You would take Tacticals (non-Gladius) or Ork Boyz if you didn't have to?

I think troops should be mandatory and also the worst units in any army, and I don't like lists with only super elite stuff, so yes, I like boyz or gretchin.

Saythings wrote:


14 pts Marine has WS/BS 4, S4, T4, 1W, 1A, Ld8, 3+ Armor
6 Ork has WS4, BS4, S3, 4 on Charge, T4, 3A, Ld7, 6+, aka 5+ Cover.

Eh, I think you're neglecting a few things.... Marines have all of this rolled up into their points.

Wargear:
• Boltgun
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades

Special Rules:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Chapter Tactics
• Combat Squads

Options for a much harder transport, tons of bubble effects, formations that increase their value further (orks have some, but they are very restrictive in what you can take, marine ones seem to have no tax's rolled into them), shenanigans out the backside for ignoring leadership, and the chapter tactics has an enormous impact... If there was a 'clan' that allowed me to have hit and run on all my boys, or even a free 6+ FNP or hell, some Waaagh-doctrines that allowed me to shooting waagh, Assault waaagh and the like I'd be ecstatic.

Boys are definitely overcosted unless you start admitting that other things in the game are hugely undercosted and adjusting those.

Not to mention, you can add the value of a coversave into a unit as if it's a given; if you're gonna do that then how many points is it worth? Because the marines have access to it as well.