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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.

Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.

I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?

All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".

That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.

Actually, no, a Baneblade can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". A unit can't fire in the shooting phase if there are enemies within 1", and it can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". Those are two seperate limitations. The Steel Behemoth ability overrides the first one, but not the second.

tneva82 wrote:


First game scenario is this nutter, no idea about future ones. As said 30 PL game with 15 more per game. First 2 with 1 patrol(second is REALLY tight to fit! 45 PL to one patrol...), then you get battalion and then even brigade though only 1 detachment max.

Whoever organised this mess has clearly never read the astra militarum codex (or doesn't care) - just checked and you can have a guard BRIGADE for 45 PL!

My suggestion would have been to spend a little cash only on plasma or melta dudes and run tallarn infantry with special weapons only. Mix of flamers and plasma or melta. Enough mobility to take objectives and fall back for volley fire and gbitf!, and flexible with no one unit being vital for target saturation. But it looks like the organiser is a nid player and doesn't want anyone stopping their Genestealers from cleaning up... /cynicism

Yeah. That league sounds stupid. I wouldn't even bother playing that trash scenario. The organizer sounds like he got drunk and made up rules for the league, decided it was a good idea while drunk the next day and ran with it.

I would rather play fewer pick up games than that mess.

Ive got news. Conscripts are being nerfed even more, theyre now the same price as an infantry squad guy.. At that point, its getting tough even in fluffy lists... :/
(see the N/R thread about chapter approved, links to an instagram post with pictures of the book.)

In other news, astropaths have doubled in cost, Melatguns and HSVG are more expensive (the former only for 3+ BS units, going up by roughly 40%), Manticores get a 10p increase, same for primaris psykers. Ratlings and Wyvverns also get more expensive for some infathomable reason. Both Taurox versions get an increase, but autocannons and power fists get slightly cheaper, so... yay?

Also, Earthshaker batteries and carriages got nerfed *hard*. Theyre actually more expensive than a standard basilisk now... seems like theyre relegated to fluff choice now. :/

Primaris Psykers is only 46 points, which is a very mild nerf considering what happened to the malefic lord. Perhaps a smite nerf is around the corner.

Conscripts being 4 points per model essentially removes them from the competitive game.

Astropath 30 +15
Conscripts 4 +1
Manticore 135 +10
Primaris 38 + 10
Ratlings 7 +2
Taurox 50 +10
Taurox Prime 80 +15
Wyvern 95 +10
Autocannon 12 -3
Force Stave 8 -4
Hot Shot Volley 7 +1
Meltagun on BS4 12 unchanged
Meltagun on BS3 17 +5
Power Fist 8 -2
Taurox Gatling 20 +2
Tempestus Command Rod 5 +5
Vanquisher Cannon 20 -5

My 2000 point vehicle heavy list went up by 66 and down by 10 net 56 more expensive (cost increases for Pyskers, Manticore, Ratlings, Tempestus and Taurox Prime)

Well, I can safely say that those point changes are about as far from what I saw coming as they could have been.

...what were the issues with meltaguns? I've literally never heard anyone complain about them not costing enough.

There's literally no reason to take conscripts that I can think of at this point. I guess you get slightly better order efficiency, but in turn it's harder to fill out those brigades.

Manticores got hit but basilisks didn't?

Primaris didn't go up as much as I thought it would, and if the force stave is getting cheaper, well, that offsets it even more.

Ratlings were probably too cheap, but they were also not terribly effective. They were still one of the best snipers in the game.

Taurox kinda makes sense, particularly since you're getting some of those points back on cheaper autocannons.

Not nerfing Elysian snipers alongside Ratlings is a weird oversight.

They upped all the FW earthshaker options, but still kept batteries cheaper than carriages, and both are way more than the basic basilisk. Just odd.

I don't have the Forgeworld book to compare prices but lot of point changes

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23794997_2041528466092955_8817430083567018412_n.jpg?oh=26891af977f320be878ea9d471cf3944&oe=5AD3ADED

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795500_2041528629426272_1254081872999303629_n.jpg?oh=b949b90236a928097eb4413ea234dced&oe=5A9E0F22

The conscript change is just broke. No reason they should cost the same as infantry. And I already felt the commissar change needed a tweak to not be detrimental to use.

They also did absolutely nothing w Celestine and guiliman.. ok 25 points is 25 points for guiliman but still huge benefit. Celestine is the same price w geminae.

Melta vets are officially shelved as I was still using them but not at this points cost.

Our primarus made it through relatively ok. I'm not sure what benefit we got through this maybe Marbo...

With a couple small exceptions these point changes seem almost random.

 Maxurugi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.

Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.

I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?

All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".

That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.

Actually, no, a Baneblade can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". A unit can't fire in the shooting phase if there are enemies within 1", and it can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". Those are two seperate limitations. The Steel Behemoth ability overrides the first one, but not the second.

Actually, read the rule:

"This unit may fire it's weapons when enemies are within 1"."

No mention of shooting phase only.

Where is this information coming from? Lol at these changes. What is going on?

If the leaks are anything to go by, it appears whoever is in charge of the Errata is whoever is least familiar with the actual rules, because most of the stuff that got nerfed either got massively overnerfed or wasn't anything anyone imagined would be nerfed, while lots that needed nerfs didn't get it of course...

I'm not sure what they think making Conscripts 4pts is going to do...other than just functionally remove them from the game

Guess got lucky hadn't painted yet conscript. Why take guys that have worse stats and orders only on 4+ when for same price i can take basic troopers.

Edit: don't see conscripts on above pictures. Blind, they are elsewhere ov false rumour?

I look forward to meltaguns never seeing play ever again.

tneva82 wrote:
Guess got lucky hadn't painted yet conscript. Why take guys that have worse stats and orders only on 4+ when for same price i can take basic troopers.

Edit: don't see conscripts on above pictures. Blind, they are elsewhere ov false rumour?

He posted only the forgeworld Astra Militarum pages. The normal IG stuff is in a different picture in the main thread.

What a bunch of wacky changes. RIP astropath I guess. And meltaguns...huh. Autocannons are priced to where they should be though, so might start bringing a few.

This wasn't entirely what I was expecting. Some sensible stuff, but most of our strongest stuff still seems weirdly intact! I thought they'd use chapter approved to reign in AM a bit so we're not so far above the rest of the armies...

- Conscripts before the other nerfs might have been comparable to infantry squad costs. With them, they're just flat worse. Regular infantry should have gone to 5pts if conscripts went to 4. It'd have been a bit tough, but I wouldn't have been against it. If conscripts are 4pts, they could undo the commissar nerf for us at least
- Can't believe they didn't bump up elysians by at least a point (if not two)
- 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike.
- Surprised they didn't bump the cost of russes a little. I'd only lost two games of 8th 40k with my competitive foot guard list, and they were both to russ-heavy mech guard
- Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover.
- Autocannon buff seems reasonable. Surprised they kept mortars so nice and cheap.
- I would only have bumped up ratlings to 8pts per model personally
- Manticore and taurox prime nerfs look appropriate.

 DoomMouse wrote:

- 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike.

To be fair, it probably doesn't help that out other special weapons are garbage, regardless of cost.
- Sniper Rifles are laughable.
- Grenade Launchers are pathetic.
- Flamers have an exceptionally short range on units that probably want to maintain distance for as long as possible.
- Meltas are basically Lascannons with -1S, +1AP and -36" range.

On top of that, we have the fact that Plasma benefits from far more doctrines and such than our other weapons.
- Anything that rerolls 1s.
- The Tallarn Doctrine
- The Armageddon Doctrine
- The Vostroyan Doctrine
- The Storm Trooper Doctrine
- The Storm Trooper deployment
etc.

Now, what do the other weapons benefit from?
Grenade Launchers - the Tallarn Doctrine. And nothing else.
Sniper Rifles - the Vostroyan Doctrine. And nothing else.
Flamers - the Catachan Order.

If you want to make people use other weapons, the solution is not to increase the cost of plasma. The solution is to make the other weapons worth taking in the first place.

 DoomMouse wrote:

- Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover.

I think the cost of Astropaths was raised too much. I think 20-25pts would have been more reasonable. Also, make their staff cost 0pts. It's just as useless as the laspistol and the 6pts it currently costs is moronic.

Sniper rifles are *ok* if you don't rely on them too much. My cadian sniper CS has been seeing fairly frequent use lately - reroll 1s to hit under cadian doctrine and bs3 is very nice for a unit that on average generates a mortal wound every other turn for 36 points at range 36" on whomever one chooses. With tank commanders as officers they don't even need a foot commander to unlock.

I have found that thinking of flamers as shooting weapons is counterproductive. Planning around them as Close Combat weapons which have overwatch and don't need to roll to charge is much more appropriate - since guard will die in CC anyway, with flamers they actually get to do something.

Grenade Launchers are and always have been crap though. At least they make nice conversion chassis.

Kind of annoyed at the changes to be honest. All this does is limit what guard players are going to take. I was trying to use meltas but not at nearly the cost of a freaking Lascannon. Maybe 1 Astropath is worth it for the removal of cover but I'm questioning their usefulness at this cost. I'd just rather have 10 more guardsmen .... Cyclops went up from 40 to 60. At that point, no longer worth it. I already stopped using Ratlings after my first few games of 8th. I also stopped using conscripts before any nerfs but I'm kind of annoyed that they have yet again messed with them. I'm shocked lol. Wtf is going on? Who is playtesting this stuff and coming up with these changes?! I'm not buying chapter approved because there's just going to be a freaking FAQ in the future changing this gak yet again.

At least they decreased the autocannon cost.

Yeah, the IG codex had increased the Scion plasma cost, but lowered everything else, so I had the chance to not change my list too much, but now I am not sure if I'll be able to keep a 1000 pts list, probably gonna need to get more stuff to reach 1250 pts.

Perhaps the benefit of buffing 30 bodies justifies increasing the model cost of 1ppm.

Personally I would have liked to see the original cost stay at 3ppm with additional models costing 4ppm. But that doesn't fit with the new points layout.

Meltaguns.. Once everything is out, context will likely still make these guns a tempting choice.

AP-5, D6 damage will remove models unlike 2 damage plasma guns.

Razerous wrote:
Perhaps the benefit of buffing 30 bodies justifies increasing the model cost of 1ppm.

I can't possibly see a reason why it'd be worth it. You get more weapons, more unit actions, require less support, and better performance from just taking basic guardsmen.

Meltaguns.. Once everything is out, context will likely still make these guns a tempting choice.

AP-5, D6 damage will remove models unlike 2 damage plasma guns.

AP-4, not -5, but more to the point, looking at say, Stormtroopers, 4 dudes with Meltaguns (and ST Doctrine) are going to put 7.26 wounds on tanks at 9" Deep Strike distance, Overcharged Plasma are going to do 7.4, the Meltaguns are only superior at 6" and under, which is more difficult to attain and cannot be done typically from the Deep Strike, and even then they're only about 20% better, and only against vehicles/big monsters, the Plasma Guns are better against literally anything else and in any other circumstance.

At 17ppm, I don't think we're really going to see Meltaguns.

Melta stormies really need to be shoved out of a Valkyrie.

 Vaktathi wrote:
AP-4, not -5, but more to the point, looking at say, Stormtroopers, 4 dudes with Meltaguns (and ST Doctrine) are going to put 7.26 wounds on tanks at 9" Deep Strike distance, Overcharged Plasma are going to do 7.4, the Meltaguns are only superior at 6" and under, which is more difficult to attain and cannot be done typically from the Deep Strike, and even then they're only about 20% better, and only against vehicles/big monsters, the Plasma Guns are better against literally anything else and in any other circumstance.

At 17ppm, I don't think we're really going to see Meltaguns.

Also, that's just 3pts less than a Lascannon, which has basically the same statline (save for +1S and -1AP), but an extra 36" of range.

I feel like the guard nerfs coming are a little heavy handed in some areas for causing poor internal balance... however, I am okay with most of the point changes. Guard were already a little overpowered.

Meltaguns needed to be lower in price to make them useful in comparison to plasma.

We got it community/GW... you don't want us playing conscripts anymore.. Ill remove the white stripe from my helmets as at their new cost they are useless. Might as well bring bare infantry squads who obey orders and have Sergeants. Conscripts working for a bit was nice.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Melta stormies really need to be shoved out of a Valkyrie.

Too bad doesn't get into melta range.

Well. I was within inch of using part of next fw order to get some ig rather than just 30k stuff and get into 40k more but with ca gw showed they care more about money than balance. Atleast 30k rules still nice and improve soon so my ig gets just unpainted models painted. Maybe later converted to 30k army

Can't you use grav chute anymore? You drop out of the Valk 9'' away and then walk the rest, since you don't need to wait for the end of the movement phase.