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Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless

 addnid wrote:
Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless

i never said their guns couldnt be better.

Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.

15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.


I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.


and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.


Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.

It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.

The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.

The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.

but the clever spanner stratagem says you can only do it once, so i understood it as i could only do that reroll once. I guess i have misunderstood how works. So if you pay 2 CP for that guy you can reroll each round? Thats good, and i clearly understood it wrong, but i still dont want to pay 2CP to be able to reroll each round just to avoid getting 15 shots total.I would prefer if that was a point cost upgrade.

But the lowest spectrum of shots, 1 per model, 15 shots is too low if you cant reroll for a point cost that doesnt have to be a CP sink. Not enough damage (weapon profile + hitting on 5s) or not enough shots hitting. And yes, too low survivability. But i think i agree with you guys, that id rather want better weapons profile than more shots, IF the clever spanner stratagem would be a point upgrade instead. Because sure, you can still get 15 shots after your reroll, but its more consistent at least, and if its a point upgrade rather than CP, i wouldnt be wasting a ton of CP just to make a unit that has no survivability and a -1AP decent.


And yes the -1AP value is terrible. Its terrible not only on its own, but because this unit is expensive for how easy it is to kill.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.

"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.

When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?

The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.

Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?

I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.


But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.

But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.

if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.

If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.

Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla.

So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.

Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.

The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.

Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!

Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.

Thank you for your input. This is an intriguing list. It sounds like a Ghazzy DS list needs some other high-priority vehicles to keep him alive. My current list idea of running 60 boyz, nobs, and manz with him probably wants to be goffs or dual kultur.

I also like the strategy of jumping 30 boyz in as a suicide distraction that has a 58% chance of making the charge and doing some serious damage. I never thought about using the weirdboy as a mek after that. Kunning but brutal is one of my favorite warlord traits. Underrated IMO. Orks need to be sneaky to be good right now, and this WT is where it's at. I'll sometimes use it with the Deffkilla wartrike and 3 KMB deff dreads. Deploy them first all the way in the back and then re-deploy them where I need to depending on who gets first turn. Oftentimes can blow up an unsuspecting opponent's transports without any risk of the deff dreads dying turn 1, saves 2 CP on a tellyporta for the dreads, and allows you to use them safely in round 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sluggaloo wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

First, check your attitude. I have run Gazzy in a DS list. It doesn't work - you can't heal him. You would need to bring a Goff detachment too. In mono DS skulls he loses the one thing he does well - which is avoid dieing quick. I have since removed Gazzy from my list ideas because I find the biker boss with killer klaw annd brutal but kunning actually hits way more reliably because it isn't terrified of rolling 1s like Gazzy. I had Gazzy go into two kabalite warriors yesterday and he killed 1, the dude is dead to me.

Now, to actually add some discussion, below is a thought on a While We Stand list for orks. Will try it out and let you guys know how it does - it might be a stupid idea.

Spoiler:

++ Deathskulls Brigade [108 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Da Kleverest Boss, Super Cybork Body
Warboss on Warbike: Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Brutal but Kunning, Power Klaw, Warlord

+ Troops +

10x units of 10x Grots

+ Elites +

Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga

+ Fast Attack +

1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

1x Smasha Gun
1x Smasha Gun
1x Smasha Gun

+ Dedicated Transport +

9x Trukks W/ Wreckin' Ball
1x Trukk W/ Wreckin' Ball and Squig-Hide Tyres Kustom Job

Also thank you for your input. This is the type of feedback I was looking for.

My frustration is with a select few people who seem to pass judgement on people when asking for input.

Me: "Does anyone have experience using Ghaz in a DS list?"

Them: "Something is wrong with your play."

I don't claim to be an expert, and I like to try outside the box lists to find synergies I wouldn't have normally found. I also wasn't looking for responses that confirmed my biased opinion. I was looking for constructive dialogue on experience using ghazzy in a DS list and what worked or didn't work. The recent tournament results suggest that outside the box ork lists can perform very well, probably because they are catching the opponent off guard.

Anyway, I won't be posting anymore on here so you don't have to worry about it. Just pointing out that it's not open dialogue around here.

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless

i never said their guns couldnt be better.

Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.

15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.


I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.


and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.


Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.

Well lets look at it through the eye of another faction. For 309pts Chaos can have 2 full squads of Havocs with autocannons and 1 extra sgt and 1 extra havoc. They get 18 shots for 12 hits. Those 300pts of Lootas average 30 shots and 11-12 hits. We have 15 wounds at T4 and 6+, they have 12 wounds at T5 3+. For imperial guard, you can get 9 Autcannons for 150pts which net you 9 hits and take 3 sentinels for 3 more autocannons for less than 150pts more. So 3 more hits on average for a total of 12
So they get 12 wounds at T3 5+ and 18 wounds at T6 3+.

And now, most importantly, keep in mind, Chaos usually don't take havocs with Autocannons and Imperial guard aren't taking Heavy weapons teams with autocannons nor sentinels with autocannons. Why? Because they have better weapon load outs that do more damage to targets.

-2AP would be good on Lootas, but it wouldn't help them overly much since they still suffer from their biggest problem, being glass cannons. A single loota is 20pts a single havoc is 28pts. They both average 2 shots but the Havoc is BS3 and has T5 with a 3+ save compared to the lootas BS5 and T4 6+. So is +1 BS, T and +2 Save worth 8pts? If targeted by just throw away bolter shots the difference in durability is MASSIVE. IT takes less than 4 bolter shots to kill a loota (4 shots 2.6 hits, 1.3 wounds 1.14ish dead lootas) it takes 15 bolter shots to kill 1 Havoc. 1 Heavy bolter kills 1.33 lootas, it kills 0.5 Havocs. Now I get it, comparing units across factions gets some peoples panties in a twist but oh well . The point they are usually trying to make is that you can't compare a unit outside of its factions for synergy reasons. Well lets do that. Havocs sit at T5 3+ amongst a horde of vehicles and T4 3+ models, generally speaking Chaos is shorter ranged then imperials therefore the havocs sit along somewhat at the back of the bus. So your opponent is in a situation where they cant target the havocs with different weapons then they would want to target enemy infantry with. So good for them.

Now with Lootas, same thing, they sit with the same profile as ork boyz and therefore your opponent gains no real bonus vs them with special weapons compared to boyz, so he has to choose, shoot the lootas or shoot the boys. The problem is that at the moment the enemy isn't choosing because you are as the ork player. Lootas are too expensive for what little dmg they do, so you are either taking them in minimum squads which can easily be ignored or you are taking them in big 15 blobs so you can spend CP on them to increase their firepower and hopefully get some bang for your buck, and if you do that you have sunk a significant amount of points into a VERY Squishy unit.

The solution? Make lootas cheaper. SM, CSM, Imperial guard, all these factions get Autocannons as upgrades for 10pts. Why are ork boyz getting them for 12pts? Keeping in mind I think ork boyz at 8pts is too high. So that would be 17PPM (if boyz were 7pts) instead of 20, but even that is too much because again we are dealing with BS5 not BS4 nor BS3. and unlike the aforementioned factions, we don't have easy access to reroll to hits/wounds. So I would argue a DeffGun is actually closer to 8pts rather than 10. So a loota should be 15pts not 20. So 15 lootas puts you at 225 not 300. Now you can invest in 2 or 3 massive blobs of lootas and still have points left over. 3 blobs of 15 would be 675 where it used to be 900. At this point you have done what orkz NEED to do to win, flood the board with units that the enemy doesn't have enough dakka to get rid of fast enough.

We once talked about wanting Choppas to be -1AP and Big Choppas, -2AP.

But now that i think about it i think thats not gonna happen. Not for the Big Choppa at least. Buzzgob which was updated with the forge world book, uses a Big Choppa and that weapon has the same value as it has always had.

So if the forge world book is anything to go by, then Big Choppas, at least, dont get a -2AP upgrade from its -1AP

panzerfront14 wrote:
I wish they'd either let them have decent shooting or make them more durable/more effective in combat. Ever since -1 damage has been dropping I've lost a lot of the effectiveness on my Killsaws and Powerklaws against things like dreadnoughts or just deathguard in general. I have a LOT of Meganobz, not 30 but I can field a full squad of 10 of them. Just wish they were better.

My terminators feel significantly more durable and more powerful than my Meganobz, along with having significantly more powerful offense.

Making HIT EM HARDER a bespoke rule as opposed to a stratagem is a good step, its better than just flatout adjusting all Ork weapons up, or at least making Meganobz seem to be a cut above the rest which they should be. The reason I say this is because their isn't much point moving them down in price, as they already outcompete Nobz and making them cheaper just invalidates Nobz more. Make them worth what they cost, either through a durability buff, an offensive buff, or both.

One of the things I wish they'd do and this is more of a wishlist. Instead of just giving Deff Dreads a simple durability buff like -1 damage, give them the Ramshackle rule but also Dreaded Deff Machine as a bespoke rule. Let Ork vehicles be more potent on the offensive along with occasionally being more durable to weapons than a marine dreadnought. Also Killa Kanz should have Klan rules. It has been stated that most Orks don't realize that there is a Grot inside the thing and well they, along with mek gunz are the only units in their category that just don't benefit from Klan Rules or their counterparts. It would be like if Devastators didn't get the Imperial Fist chapter tactics because they're new, or perhaps more accurately Scouts. (and they shall know no unfavorable rules)...

Ive said this for a while that some of our strats and kustom jobs should just be included in our baseline units. Deffdreads arent noticably cheaper than Dreadnoughts, and Meganobz are more expensive than Terminators whilst also being worse. I know we shouldnt compare units but just look at Incubi now for 16ppm then our poor Nobz who are 17ppm with literally just choppas. If we look at what Incubi and Wyches got, I think Orks might be in a good spot. Those 2 units are such blenders for the cost you pay for them, its just how they will make our units lethal because updating weapon profiles wont be enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
We once talked about wanting Choppas to be -1AP and Big Choppas, -2AP.

But now that i think about it i think thats not gonna happen. Not for the Big Choppa at least. Buzzgob which was updated with the forge world book, uses a Big Choppa and that weapon has the same value as it has always had.

So if the forge world book is anything to go by, then Big Choppas, at least, dont get a -2AP upgrade from its -1AP

I wouldnt use the Compendium as the be all end all of whats to come. The Reaper and Tantalus dont get Power of Pain, when in the codex Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless

i never said their guns couldnt be better.

Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.

15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.


I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.


and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.


Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.

Lootas have an even bigger problem than their output. Its also their toughness. Jid kind of touched on this before, a Loota is a toughness 4 6+ save boy. Even in cover thats a 5+ save. The game is swimming in AP and volume of shots. Even if you have the weapon profile you want, they are just gonna get blasted away. Lootas were fine in 8th as Bad Moons because of Grot Shields, Mob Up and generally being cheaper. For some reason which is an age old tradition for Orks, we are priced as if were shoot better or take better hits than we actually can. Then when you start comparing our units to others out there it becomes even more apparent. We used to pay more for Powerklaws than Powerfists, same with our Skorchas than Heavy Flamers. There are even more examples and tbh its pretty frustrating. Ork Boyz were 6pts then it was 7pts now its 8pts. I dont think a Boy is worth 8pts and a Grot really isnt worth 5pts. Lootas should probably have a 4+ save base (same with Burnas) and better Deffguns, something like Heavy 2 Str 7 AP2 Damage 2 and keep them below 20pts, maybe like 18pts. And if they are still D3 shots, atleast have it so that if you take a Spanna the strat from SotB is baked into his rules.

What you're saying makes sense.

Do you guys have any success with the subculture, Boomboyz?

Would you run it in a single detatchment or maybe as a secondary detatchment (like a patrol or something?).

Also i cant really figure out fully from the text, but does the Supa kannon benefit from Boomboyz culture?

SemperMortis wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless

i never said their guns couldnt be better.

Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.

15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.


I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.


and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.


Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.

Well lets look at it through the eye of another faction. For 309pts Chaos can have 2 full squads of Havocs with autocannons and 1 extra sgt and 1 extra havoc. They get 18 shots for 12 hits. Those 300pts of Lootas average 30 shots and 11-12 hits. We have 15 wounds at T4 and 6+, they have 12 wounds at T5 3+. For imperial guard, you can get 9 Autcannons for 150pts which net you 9 hits and take 3 sentinels for 3 more autocannons for less than 150pts more. So 3 more hits on average for a total of 12
So they get 12 wounds at T3 5+ and 18 wounds at T6 3+.

And now, most importantly, keep in mind, Chaos usually don't take havocs with Autocannons and Imperial guard aren't taking Heavy weapons teams with autocannons nor sentinels with autocannons. Why? Because they have better weapon load outs that do more damage to targets.

-2AP would be good on Lootas, but it wouldn't help them overly much since they still suffer from their biggest problem, being glass cannons. A single loota is 20pts a single havoc is 28pts. They both average 2 shots but the Havoc is BS3 and has T5 with a 3+ save compared to the lootas BS5 and T4 6+. So is +1 BS, T and +2 Save worth 8pts? If targeted by just throw away bolter shots the difference in durability is MASSIVE. IT takes less than 4 bolter shots to kill a loota (4 shots 2.6 hits, 1.3 wounds 1.14ish dead lootas) it takes 15 bolter shots to kill 1 Havoc. 1 Heavy bolter kills 1.33 lootas, it kills 0.5 Havocs. Now I get it, comparing units across factions gets some peoples panties in a twist but oh well . The point they are usually trying to make is that you can't compare a unit outside of its factions for synergy reasons. Well lets do that. Havocs sit at T5 3+ amongst a horde of vehicles and T4 3+ models, generally speaking Chaos is shorter ranged then imperials therefore the havocs sit along somewhat at the back of the bus. So your opponent is in a situation where they cant target the havocs with different weapons then they would want to target enemy infantry with. So good for them.

Now with Lootas, same thing, they sit with the same profile as ork boyz and therefore your opponent gains no real bonus vs them with special weapons compared to boyz, so he has to choose, shoot the lootas or shoot the boys. The problem is that at the moment the enemy isn't choosing because you are as the ork player. Lootas are too expensive for what little dmg they do, so you are either taking them in minimum squads which can easily be ignored or you are taking them in big 15 blobs so you can spend CP on them to increase their firepower and hopefully get some bang for your buck, and if you do that you have sunk a significant amount of points into a VERY Squishy unit.

The solution? Make lootas cheaper. SM, CSM, Imperial guard, all these factions get Autocannons as upgrades for 10pts. Why are ork boyz getting them for 12pts? Keeping in mind I think ork boyz at 8pts is too high. So that would be 17PPM (if boyz were 7pts) instead of 20, but even that is too much because again we are dealing with BS5 not BS4 nor BS3. and unlike the aforementioned factions, we don't have easy access to reroll to hits/wounds. So I would argue a DeffGun is actually closer to 8pts rather than 10. So a loota should be 15pts not 20. So 15 lootas puts you at 225 not 300. Now you can invest in 2 or 3 massive blobs of lootas and still have points left over. 3 blobs of 15 would be 675 where it used to be 900. At this point you have done what orkz NEED to do to win, flood the board with units that the enemy doesn't have enough dakka to get rid of fast enough.

Funnily enough... thats what Lootas originally were! 15ppm they havent changed 1 bit really from 4th edition to 8th edition (and until we get a Codex for 9th), so over 5 editions they have gotten 5pts more expensive whilst their comparatives have either only gotten better or gained more synergies. This is true for a lot of Ork units, we havent really changed throughout the editions, yeah Furious Charge is now baked in but our weapons and profiles are generally the same except for the vehicles/monsters and characters. Some things have gotten worse like Big Shootas who used to kill Guardsmen outright before cover saves to now letting a Guardsmen have his save unmolested if not better when benefitting from light cover. Ive said this before numerous times, Orks still feel like they are stuck a few editions in the past.

At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.

But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).

I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).

Beardedragon wrote:
What you're saying makes sense.

Do you guys have any success with the subculture, Boomboyz?

Would you run it in a single detatchment or maybe as a secondary detatchment (like a patrol or something?).

Also i cant really figure out fully from the text, but does the Supa kannon benefit from Boomboyz culture?

Id love to but its super restrictive when you think about it. To make the most of the Kultur your going to need to take as much Rokkits, Stikk(busta)bombs, Lobbas and (Kill)Kannons as you can get. Thats a pretty expensive army already just for +1str and ap on those types of weapons. It makes Stikkbombs more interesting more than the Rokkits personally, you generally dont need str9 nowadays because there isnt a lot of toughness 8 units flooding the meta except Mortarion of which your probably still gonna find it rough to punch a hole in him. With Killkannons it helps, especially Da Boomer as you are suddenly actually getting respectable ap on the damn thing. If we had more access to Lobbas that wouldnt be locked out because being Grots (stupid rule), again it would be extremely interesting their.

Ive ran it before but I tried it more for the actual Stikkbombs. We have a lot of vehicles that have Stikkbomb type weapons and literally every infantry model has one, the problem then starts to come that we need to spend a CP to let a unit chuck (a limited amount) a whole bunch, our BS is bad and grenades are pretty counter intuitive to how Orks wanna play. Advancing and charging, well you cant do that with grenades, charging in general... you have 6" of grenade range... if your charge is longer than that you aint chucking them and if you are then you probably gona extend your charge, then finally being embarked in transports, you cant use strats.... I dont find that Tankbustas struggle to kill vehicles, so really the Clan is really quite restrictive. If you want better heavy weapons then Deathskulls would literally be a better choice.

I dont think Supa Kannons benefit from it. Ill have to double check. Yeah doesnt effect Supa Kannons

 Jidmah wrote:
It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.

The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.

Can you use the command re-roll for the number of loota shots anymore? that stratagem has been turned into a short list of things you can use it for.

Assuming they're not in a transport then yes, you can reroll it. Rerolling random amount of shots is one of the legal ways to use the CP reroll.

cody.d. wrote:


Can you use the command re-roll for the number of loota shots anymore? that stratagem has been turned into a short list of things you can use it for.

You can command re-roll after you have "rolled the dice to determine the number of attacks made by a weapon", which regardless of any other terminology is still what you're doing when you roll to "determine the Type characteristic" of the deffguns, so I'd say yes.

Hey Guys,

do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike?
I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys

Orktai wrote:
Hey Guys,

do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike?
I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys

I would say no, because what you're suggesting there is the mistake a lot of new Ork players make which is trying to mix and match units into a combined arms force when you really need target saturation of one type to have Ork lists be successful competitively. 30 Boyz, even tellyported, will basically do squat after their deep strike, which the opponent can screen so you can only charge the targets they want you to have, and they aren't guaranteed to make said charge either. If you fail that charge, they're basically dead in the water and you wasted a chunk of 240+ points. Ghaz has no real synergy with the vehicles you have since he's not as fast as them so he can't actually buff most of them or the units inside. Furthermore, the Deffkilla Wartrike is pretty much obsolete as an HQ choice atm. He's completely outclassed by the FW rules for the Warboss on Warbike who not only does more, has access to relevant relics/strats and is tougher, but he also hits a lot harder in CC. So you may as well take the Warboss on Bike instead. If you want to do mass vehicles, then you have to stick to that rather than giving him piecemeal infantry units that get chewed up.

PiñaColada wrote:
At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.

But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).

I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).

2 things.

1: I Completely agree with you on hot rolls making people scream "ITZ BROKEN!!!!!!". I flattened a pair of Eldar Wraithknights in 7th edition with the SAG Big Mek by rolling a 12 and disintegrating them. That Eldar player rage quit and went on to demand the T.O. Ban all use of SAG because he thought it was broken good in 7th. I had people complain in 8th that the Loota bomb was just game breakingly good and surprising nobody who has played orkz for awhile, it got nerfed into the ground because it was slightly better than it should have been (mind you, only if you sunk a fethload of CP into it). Ever since Mek gunz came out, ive had people tell me they are broken and need to be nerfed into the ground as well. Basically anytime Orkz get anything remotely good at shooting people complain, usually with arguments like "Orkz are supposed to be a CC army" conveniently forgetting that their Intercessors are now Point for Point better at CC than Ork boyz.

2: If lootas get Flat 3 shots and AP-2 and go to 22ppm they will be garbage. They will be slightly better at being a glass cannon, but its becomes a game of whether or not you get to go first or not, because if you go 2nd they are dead, and 15 of them now costs you 330pts.

SemperMortis wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.

But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).

I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).

2 things.

1: I Completely agree with you on hot rolls making people scream "ITZ BROKEN!!!!!!". I flattened a pair of Eldar Wraithknights in 7th edition with the SAG Big Mek by rolling a 12 and disintegrating them. That Eldar player rage quit and went on to demand the T.O. Ban all use of SAG because he thought it was broken good in 7th. I had people complain in 8th that the Loota bomb was just game breakingly good and surprising nobody who has played orkz for awhile, it got nerfed into the ground because it was slightly better than it should have been (mind you, only if you sunk a fethload of CP into it). Ever since Mek gunz came out, ive had people tell me they are broken and need to be nerfed into the ground as well. Basically anytime Orkz get anything remotely good at shooting people complain, usually with arguments like "Orkz are supposed to be a CC army" conveniently forgetting that their Intercessors are now Point for Point better at CC than Ork boyz.

2: If lootas get Flat 3 shots and AP-2 and go to 22ppm they will be garbage. They will be slightly better at being a glass cannon, but its becomes a game of whether or not you get to go first or not, because if you go 2nd they are dead, and 15 of them now costs you 330pts.

It's always the grass is greener situation to be honest. Unfortunately a lot of non-Ork players don't understand how optimized you have to make most Ork lists to even have them work effectively and assume at first glance that since Orks are performing well that something must be wrong. It's that swingy nature of a lot of Ork weaponry that leaves almost bizarre PTSD trauma from a lot of players only remembering the time we've rolled double 6's for damage or the SAG, but never the double 1's or other low-rolls that are more statistically common. I think it also stems from Orks being widely seen as an NPC faction (definitely in the case for Eldar/Marines) since we're usually the counter meta rather than the meta-benchmark army, so when we come in with unconventional mono-focused lists like Green Tide or Buggy spam that deliberately ensure that some aspect of an opponent's firepower/units are wasted, they feel like we're gaming them in some way.

I find the problem with Lootas is finding a way to give them meaningful weaponry while not flat out taking up the same design space of flash gitz. I would much prefer if their weapons were closer to what Obliterators have in terms of semi-random strength, AP, and damage, while the Mekboy in the unit lets you reroll one of these dice when you roll for it.

I’m of the mind that all the extra rolling of dice for orks is partially why our army wastes so much time..
I think lootas should be an automatic 2 shots maybe 3 shots w spanner (ap -2 is fine even with current point cost)
I think goff trait should just be another hit on a 6 instead of more rolling to hit, etc
The bubblechukka should have a set -2ap, set 3 damage and 2d6 str and d6 shots
Flashgitz should just be an extra hit on a 6 in shooting phase

Basically just cut down the amount of rolling we do where we can..

Wait, lootas got nerfed? The only nerf I can think of would be the change to mob up right? It's just a case that people realised that massed autocannon shots at bs5 is kinda, meh compared to what other armies could rock.

cody.d. wrote:
Wait, lootas got nerfed? The only nerf I can think of would be the change to mob up right? It's just a case that people realised that massed autocannon shots at bs5 is kinda, meh compared to what other armies could rock.

I think he meant they got nerfed in the sense that grot shields were no longer cost efficient, they themselves stayed expensive and took a decent price hike from the 9th edition transition, AND that AP-1 D2 weaponry was becoming exceedingly outpaced by the arms race set by newer factions. There's so many rules now that negate the -1AP (storm shields, Salamanders trait, SoB trait, etc.) that for a long range weapon it just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. The D2 is also much less powerful now that GW is starting to slowly disseminate -1D abilities or auras into armies.

Would that classify as a nerf as much as the meta moved past them? I mean, personally I did sort of shift towards tankbustas over lootas.

Orktai wrote:
Hey Guys,

do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike?
I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys

As grimskull said, keep in mind target oversaturation. It' s a good trick how to keep your army alive.

Transports are good. Put MANz, 10boy squads and strong characters inside and mix them with buggies, mek guns, flyiers. So you put in T1 just vehicles on the table. That is fine.

Or take Ghazz and tons of boyz and maybe few cheap trukks. That is also ok.

Or do it like Andrew Penn - that is also a lot like vehicle spam (2 trukks with manz, 1 with bustas, third squad of manz camping under the building and SAGs on the roof. So opponent must kill manz first before can shoot at sags)


Deffkilla is actually much softer than motowarboss right now like was said before + warboss has 2-3x smaller base. That is a huge difference.

Grimskul wrote:
I would say no, because what you're suggesting there is the mistake a lot of new Ork players make which is trying to mix and match units into a combined arms force when you really need target saturation of one type to have Ork lists be successful competitively. 30 Boyz, even tellyported, will basically do squat after their deep strike, which the opponent can screen so you can only charge the targets they want you to have, and they aren't guaranteed to make said charge either. If you fail that charge, they're basically dead in the water and you wasted a chunk of 240+ points. Ghaz has no real synergy with the vehicles you have since he's not as fast as them so he can't actually buff most of them or the units inside. Furthermore, the Deffkilla Wartrike is pretty much obsolete as an HQ choice atm. He's completely outclassed by the FW rules for the Warboss on Warbike who not only does more, has access to relevant relics/strats and is tougher, but he also hits a lot harder in CC. So you may as well take the Warboss on Bike instead. If you want to do mass vehicles, then you have to stick to that rather than giving him piecemeal infantry units that get chewed up.

Tomsug wrote:
As grimskull said, keep in mind target oversaturation. It' s a good trick how to keep your army alive.

Transports are good. Put MANz, 10boy squads and strong characters inside and mix them with buggies, mek guns, flyiers. So you put in T1 just vehicles on the table. That is fine.

Or take Ghazz and tons of boyz and maybe few cheap trukks. That is also ok.

Or do it like Andrew Penn - that is also a lot like vehicle spam (2 trukks with manz, 1 with bustas, third squad of manz camping under the building and SAGs on the roof. So opponent must kill manz first before can shoot at sags)

Spoiler:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-queensland-masters-and-end-of- year-thoughts/
Patrol: deathskulls
HQ
Warboss w power klaw + kustom shoota=83pts
Relic: killa klaw.
Warlord: kunnin but brutal. Upgrade:.
Da biggest boss. -1cp
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Troops
10x gretchin =50pts
Fast Attack
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
Dedicated Transport
trukk =65pts trukk =65pts trukk =65pts
Vanguard: deathskulls HQ
Big Mek w SAG=120pts
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Elites
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 kommandos including boss Nob (1x tankbusta bomb) =45pts
9 tankbustas including boss Nob=153pts
Fast Attack
3 mekatrakk scrapjets: Korkscrew (kustum job) =330pts
5 stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas=60pts
Cp: 12-3 (vanguard) -1 (biggest boss) -1 (kustom job).
– 7cp total pre game Total points 1996

Deffkilla is actually much softer than motowarboss right now like was said before + warboss has 2-3x smaller base. That is a huge difference.

Thank you both for your fast feedback and I get what you are telling me!
I have to admit that I am a little bummed out, that the Bikerboss is just so much better than the Deffkilla haha.

cody.d. wrote:
Would that classify as a nerf as much as the meta moved past them? I mean, personally I did sort of shift towards tankbustas over lootas.

Kind of. They got more expensive (even in comparison to other price hikes), but lost access to many things that made them good, which is multi-clan armies, 18CP and cheap gretchin to protect them. Lootas without those things were never good to begin with, so the price hike kind of killed them. IIRC semper and me once mathhammered that a loota's shooting without stratagem or culture support is roughly worth 8-10 points, and the main argument for not doing it was that you could just bring a 200 lootas army. But now we have the rule of 3, so I see no reason to not cost them aggressively. It'd totally love being able to field all my 45 lootas again.
I also miss the times when they were elite units - but enough imperial players where whining about how they felt much more like heavy support units, so they go moved to make it impossible to use them as fire support for battlewagon or walker heavy lists like we did in 5th.

Some low hanging fruits for improving them would be to just making them cheaper again (12-14 points), make spanna weapons free and make the cleverest spanna stratagem a stock ability.

I dont feel like any of our infantry, lootas or flash gitz, are heavy support.

All of it belongs to the elite slot imo.

At least for orks, the heavy support slot should be reserved for vehicles only.

I fully agree. But during 5th and 6th this was a popular opinion among non-ork players, and it got picked up by whoever was writing the 7th edition codex, and here we are now.

It's one of the reasons why I am rather combative when it comes people spreading uninformed opinions and calling out people's BS when they talk about orks.

Using just Trukks to aim to get While we Stand didn't work for me. We are just too squishy for that objective I feel. /rant

Guys if you use Ghaz and fight the nightbringer, which of the two rules takes priority?

His Drain life ability:
Drain Life: Each time this model makes a melee attack that is allocated to an enemy model, that enemy model cannot use any rules to ignore the wounds it loses.

or our ability to only take 4 wounds per phase?