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Voss wrote:
rhino rush with heavy flamer devastators.

Oh gak...what!

Damnit the Libby can't join Devs, but the Primaris Libby can join Desolators. Lame.

And no Gravis Libby for Heavy Intercessors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
rhino rush with heavy flamer devastators.

Oh gak...what!

You could just drop pod with them, too.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You could just drop pod with them, too.

Yea it's the flamers and sarge options I wasn't prepared for - popping out of a rhino makes it more hilarious.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
rhino rush with heavy flamer devastators.

Oh gak...what!

Damnit the Libby can't join Devs, but the Primaris Libby can join Desolators. Lame.

And no Gravis Libby for Heavy Intercessors.

Yeah the character interactions are... weird. Some you can see the logic they were going for even if you don't agree with it (its easy to spot the thought process behind terminators+terminators and gravis+gravis).
Others are just... special.

The fact that they just threw their hands up in the air for characters on bikes and said 'yeah, sure, whatever' (classic bikes or primaris outriders) is certainly strange.

And from what I can tell, nobody can Lead Devastators. They must be very obstinate.

 Insectum7 wrote:
And from what I can tell, nobody can Lead Devastators. They must be very obstinate.

Yea nothing at all. Lots of other triggers they can pick up on though.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The lack of Combat Squadding sucks.

Especially when you have a Razorback that only carries 6 models. You can't actually put a Tactical Squad in a Razorback. Well, until four of them have been killed, I guess. :/

Dedicated transports have very delicate machine spirits though. If there's not a squad inside to whisper soothing words to it, it'll blow itself up as soon as the fighting starts.

Sniper Scouts hit on 2s (3+ base, then Heavy), then plop a Boxnought nearby for rerolling 1s. 96% hit rate with their Precision weapons. Seems real nasty against numerous characters.

Each unit bringing it's own ability is fun to read, but it sure feels like, rather than a reduction in Strats, we got an increase in Strats which are just automatic.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed on the bloat and complexity, the complexity is lower than 9th but still higher than I expected. Going through SM, the iconic starter faction, I wasn't expected a unique'ish special ability on every single unit.

I prefer the layout, but it definitely wastes space in a lot of cases.

I'm actually finding that this is a bit harder to choose how I would build a list. Not because any particular thing is complicated, but because so many of these interactions only happen on the table and the only way to really understand how effective they are will be to slap them down. Coupled with not having to start with Troops makes it even more open ended.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
we got an increase in Strats which are just automatic.

Very much this - it's on the sheet, which is nice, but there's a ton of stuff going on.

True it opens up a lot of options, but typically for a starter faction they have good overall stats and less fiddly rules to worry about.

I will say I really like what they did with Tac marines, I haven't played Marines in ages but I'd be very happy running them now.

Also strange no one can join Devastators.

Scout Snipers + Vindicare can really wreck some character heavy lists. I'm really interested to see if we wind up with a low amount of characters being fielded during Index hammer.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
True it opens up a lot of options, but typically for a starter faction they have good overall stats and less fiddly rules to worry about.

I will say I really like what they did with Tac marines, I haven't played Marines in ages but I'd be very happy running them now.

Also strange no one can join Devastators.

Scout Snipers + Vindicare can really wreck some character heavy lists. I'm really interested to see if we wind up with a low amount of characters being fielded during Index hammer.

Precision seems a little overdone to me, especially since it isn't one or two weapons, its entire units somehow doing precision volleys into characters (or potentially the entire tyranid army, though that requires crits).
Lesser characters (certainly the GEQ 'advisors') are simply going to die round one if someone wants to build for it.

Feels very weird.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Scout Snipers + Vindicare can really wreck some character heavy lists. I'm really interested to see if we wind up with a low amount of characters being fielded during Index hammer.

Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.


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Voss wrote:
Precision seems a little overdone to me, especially since it isn't one or two weapons, its entire units somehow doing precision volleys into characters (or potentially the entire tyranid army, though that requires crits).
Lesser characters (certainly the GEQ 'advisors') are simply going to die round one if someone wants to build for it.

Feels very weird.

Unless you have elevation it should be pretty hard to see a platoon commander behind 25 other models. Theoretically anyway. Marine characters will be a lot easier to see, but more durable.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.

Guard live or die on their characters. It's not going to be too odd to have like 2 per unit, depending on cost. At least you can hide them out of los to avoid precision, but that is a large restriction.

I almost want to take deathstrikes just to pulverise those scout snipers.

Precision is an interesting beast, in general it should probably be only for weapons (i.e. Sniper Rifles) but I don't mind it so much on a character who is all about assassinating or perhaps challenging other characters.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Unless you have elevation it should be pretty hard to see a platoon commander behind 25 other models. Theoretically anyway. Marine characters will be a lot easier to see, but more durable.

With line from any part of model(base included) to any part of model(base includea) not so easy to stop from between legs etc.

Even walking behind rhino isn't much protection. Line from base to base under rhino...

Gw rules make blocking los with models really hard.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Scout Snipers + Vindicare can really wreck some character heavy lists. I'm really interested to see if we wind up with a low amount of characters being fielded during Index hammer.

Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.


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Voss wrote:
Precision seems a little overdone to me, especially since it isn't one or two weapons, its entire units somehow doing precision volleys into characters (or potentially the entire tyranid army, though that requires crits).
Lesser characters (certainly the GEQ 'advisors') are simply going to die round one if someone wants to build for it.

Feels very weird.

Unless you have elevation it should be pretty hard to see a platoon commander behind 25 other models. Theoretically anyway. Marine characters will be a lot easier to see, but more durable.

well, if hes attached to the 20 man squad, hes targetable, because you just need to see one model in the squad, then precsion kicks in at wound allocation and your sniper rifles can now punch though whatever cover he was in.

Yea it's no guarantee, but with enough bodies staggered it could be possible. Not something to bank on.


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xerxeskingofking wrote:
well, if hes attached to the 20 man squad, hes targetable, because you just need to see one model in the squad, then precsion kicks in at wound allocation and your sniper rifles can now punch though whatever cover he was in.

It has to be visible to the attacking model with precision :

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it's no guarantee, but with enough bodies staggered it could be possible. Not something to bank on.


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xerxeskingofking wrote:
well, if hes attached to the 20 man squad, hes targetable, because you just need to see one model in the squad, then precsion kicks in at wound allocation and your sniper rifles can now punch though whatever cover he was in.

It has to be visible to the attacking model with precision :

Ah, missed that part. my bad.

still, "visable" is defined as "any part of the model", so depending on terrian etc it might not be pratical or even possible to hide him, espically if the oppo leans into sniping with multiple units.

Wow marines have way too many data sheets.

Lightning claws listed separately from other power weapons, by the way.

What am I supposed to do with my Razorbacks?

- My Tactical Marines don't combat squad anymore.
- I can't take my Tactical Squads as a reduced unit.
- I don't have any other units in my collection that can ride it except for 1 Space Marine Captain.

 Eligius wrote:
What am I supposed to do with my Razorbacks?

- My Tactical Marines don't combat squad anymore.
- I can't take my Tactical Squads as a reduced unit.
- I don't have any other units in my collection that can ride it except for 1 Space Marine Captain.

Seems bizarre they didn't get that rule previewed with the DE Venom.

So Relic Terminators lost the ability to have Combi-bolter and Lightning Claw loadout, but inexplicably gained the ability to take Combi-bolter and Power Weapon on every model, despite that not being possible from either of the kits.


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 Eligius wrote:
What am I supposed to do with my Razorbacks?

Buy Impulsors.

Looking at the Salamanders characters specifically, others have pointed out that Adrax has some weird anti-synergy and kind of struggles to have a place. His big buff of full wound rerolls sounds great, but the only unit he can join that has any real CC ability is Assault Intercessors...which already get wound rerolls when fighting over an objective. And Adrax wants to be fighting over an objective due to his other special rule.

Vulkan He'stan looks really good though - either with a full Infernus Squad for flamer goodness or just staking a claim on a center objective with a command squad, buffing whatever's useful, and daring the enemy to try and contest a unit with OC21 (10 from vulkan + 1 for the banner, 2 from each squad member with the banner) and Ld5+.

 Eligius wrote:
What am I supposed to do with my Razorbacks?

- My Tactical Marines don't combat squad anymore.
- I can't take my Tactical Squads as a reduced unit.
- I don't have any other units in my collection that can ride it except for 1 Space Marine Captain.

Only thing I can think of is either take some of your heavy weapons tac marines and make them Devastators, or get a command squad together with your captain.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
So Relic Terminators lost the ability to have Combi-bolter and Lightning Claw loadout, but inexplicably gained the ability to take Combi-bolter and Power Weapon on every model, despite that not being possible from either of the kits.

You're too focused on names.

Combi-Bolter + Claw = Power Weapon
Two Claws = Lightning Claws

Others mentioned this unit earlier in the thread. Below is a very workable combo.

-10 Desolation Marines
-1 Primaris Librarian attached to unit.
-Bolter Discipline enhancement given to Librarian.
-Devastator Doctrine
-Oath of the Moment on unit you want them to fire at.

The number of shots and hits really surprised me.

Vs a squad of 10 models and assume Desolation Marines moved.

Catellan Launcher 10d3 +20 shots hitting on 3+
Super Frag 10d6 + 30 shots hitting on 4+

Full rerolls to hit (and wound) with exploding hits on 5+. It also took me several minutes to count, roll, reroll, and add in additional hits with this unit.

Seriously, where did the Venerable Dread go?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They should have done with they did with the Venom and it's puzzling as to why they didn't.

Of they should've avoided yet another special rule and made Tac Squads 1 Sergeant and 4-9 Marines. No need for extra rules there.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Lightning claws listed separately from other power weapons, by the way.

For Loyalists. Wait 'til Chosen get their rules.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You're too focused on names.

Names carry weight and have meaning. Stop trying to tell everyone that wanting different weapons to be represented is wrong.

 Sarigar wrote:
Others mentioned this unit earlier in the thread. Below is a very workable combo.

-10 Desolation Marines
-1 Primaris Librarian attached to unit.
-Bolter Discipline enhancement given to Librarian.
-Devastator Doctrine
-Oath of the Moment on unit you want them to fire at.

The number of shots and hits really surprised me.

Vs a squad of 10 models and assume Desolation Marines moved.

Catellan Launcher 10d3 +20 shots hitting on 3+
Super Frag 10d6 + 30 shots hitting on 4+

Full rerolls to hit (and wound) with exploding hits on 5+. It also took me several minutes to count, roll, reroll, and add in additional hits with this unit.

6 Inceptors drop in with bolters and they're all dead if oath is on.

Might want to take plasma to wipe Eldar support weapons though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Others mentioned this unit earlier in the thread. Below is a very workable combo.

-10 Desolation Marines
-1 Primaris Librarian attached to unit.
-Bolter Discipline enhancement given to Librarian.
-Devastator Doctrine
-Oath of the Moment on unit you want them to fire at.

The number of shots and hits really surprised me.

Vs a squad of 10 models and assume Desolation Marines moved.

Catellan Launcher 10d3 +20 shots hitting on 3+
Super Frag 10d6 + 30 shots hitting on 4+

Full rerolls to hit (and wound) with exploding hits on 5+. It also took me several minutes to count, roll, reroll, and add in additional hits with this unit.

6 Inceptors drop in with bolters and they're all dead if oath is on.

Might want to take plasma to wipe Eldar support weapons though.

Ok, I'll bite.

Inceptors drop in on turn 2 (pretty much confirmed no turn 1 deep strike, but irrelevant for this).

Desolation Marines Overwatch. Assuming I don't have other units with Torrent that can more efficiently Overwatch.

Castellan 10d3 + 10 shots, hitting on 6 with exploding 6 10 hits. 3 wounds. 1 failed save
Super Frag 10d6 + 20 shots, hitting on 6 with exploding 6. 16 hits. 4 wounds. 2 failed save
Not factoring the Librarian shooting Smite.

5 Inceptors shoot. 15 shots rerolls , 14 hit, 12 wounds. 6 failed saves. 6 Desolation Marines go down. Assumption Desolation Marines don't have a cover save. In cover, likely get one more save.

Lost 5-6 Desolation Marines. They likely destroyed one to two units on turn one which resulted in exposing a full squad of Inceptors. I'm reasonably ok with that trade.

Plasma would potentially be less efficient as the Librarian gives the unit a 4++.

I would caution players if they see Desolation Marines on the table. Their shooting profile appears massively higher than other Marine units. They are really good in 9th and I suspect they got better I 10th.

Points are obviously a huge factor.

They can come down in Dev Doc and use Storm of Fire to ignore cover and pick up an AP if necessary. Desolators are probably stupidly broken. I doubt there will be a sensible point level for them and their rules will need to change. Castellan should lose blast at the very least.