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^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

I'm curious how expensive Whirlwinds will be.
Seems like they would be ideal for cutting down Desolators from further away and avoiding counter-battery fire.

Edit: LOL NO! What am I thinking?! Attack those Desolators with Storm Ravens, because SRs are apparently immune to D1.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.

Guard live or die on their characters. It's not going to be too odd to have like 2 per unit, depending on cost. At least you can hide them out of los to avoid precision, but that is a large restriction.

I almost want to take deathstrikes just to pulverise those scout snipers.

Does it have a hard counter for "not unless within 12"?

Breton wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.

Guard live or die on their characters. It's not going to be too odd to have like 2 per unit, depending on cost. At least you can hide them out of los to avoid precision, but that is a large restriction.

I almost want to take deathstrikes just to pulverise those scout snipers.

Does it have a hard counter for "not unless within 12"?

yeah it doesn't target them, it targets the ground near them

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

That's OK, Hellblasters can now ride in a Pod. And they even got a bespoke Suicide Squad rule. And a Designer's Note that stopped just short of explicitly telling us to put Hellblasters in a pod, pop out, shoot overcharged, fail the roll, and shoot overcharged again with the casualties before removing them. You can even do 5 Hellblasters, and 5 Devastators with 4 A3, Anti-Vehicle 2+, D3 Grav Cannon if you want some TAC Variety in your pod.

I'm curious how expensive Whirlwinds will be.
Seems like they would be ideal for cutting down Desolators from further away and avoiding counter-battery fire.

Edit: LOL NO! What am I thinking?! Attack those Desolators with Storm Ravens, because SRs are apparently immune to D1.

Whirlwinds plus Terror Troop Reivers could be a a theme for someone who really wants to work it.

Reiver gives -1 for Terror Troops (Doesn't stack, its on a blurb on a side panel in the Main Rules PDF.)

Shoot them with a whirlwind - first battle shock test at -1.

Charge them/Be In Engagement Range with the Reivers. Second Battle Shock Test at -1.

Charge Them with the Brutalis, third Battleshock Test at -1.

If I've got it figured right, a LD of 6+ now only succeeds on a 7+ which is a 50/50 roll and you just forced three of them as long as you can get your Reivers within 6/9" before the shooting phase. About 4 out of 5 times, that should Battleshock the unit even before the first casualty. Can't RELIABLY work on a Deep Strike Turn - Can't Deploy within 9" by rule, and I don't yet see a way to move after the Reinforcements step short of charging.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm quite curious how effective this stuff will be. Seemingly you'd be better off taking all vehicles and not sweating characters, but there's stuff to punish doing that, too. Positioning is going to be key to keep snipers off their target.

Guard live or die on their characters. It's not going to be too odd to have like 2 per unit, depending on cost. At least you can hide them out of los to avoid precision, but that is a large restriction.

I almost want to take deathstrikes just to pulverise those scout snipers.

Does it have a hard counter for "not unless within 12"?

yeah it doesn't target them, it targets the ground near them

Yeah that is correct. The deathstrike actually avoids a lot of defensive abilities, due to it never "targeting" a unit. Off the top of my head, you can't use the pop smoke strategem, or that defensive Eldar strat I forget the name of.

Of course, I'm not thinking deathstrikes are going to be good. Will probably have to use deepstrike or fast vehicles to deal with scout snipers.

 Trickstick wrote:

Of course, I'm not thinking deathstrikes are going to be good. Will probably have to use deepstrike or fast vehicles to deal with scout snipers.

I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same and yeah, Deep Strike Dakka is probably the obvious choice - even Storm Bolter Terminators probably wipe the squad with just the storm bolters - though that may be why you see Invictors getting an "overwatch" style ability for Phobos Infantry nearby. I snipe, you Deep strike, shoot a unit of 3 snipers, I shoot back with the Invictors, rinse and repeat for the rest of the up to two more Eliminator squads. Maybe Deep Striking a Hailstrike or something?

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points. I could see maybe using one if they are cheap, but that is unlikely. Tbh, 2 wound scouts mean a deathstrike wouldn't even be that good, with only d1.

Tbh I'm waiting on manticore stats, as I have two of those built already. No good against scouts though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They can come down in Dev Doc and use Storm of Fire to ignore cover and pick up an AP if necessary. Desolators are probably stupidly broken. I doubt there will be a sensible point level for them and their rules will need to change. Castellan should lose blast at the very least.

I think you missed that they have a 4++ via the Librarian.

I do agree they feel over the top right now and will be very curious to see how they fare in early tourney play as metrics are gathered.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They can come down in Dev Doc and use Storm of Fire to ignore cover and pick up an AP if necessary. Desolators are probably stupidly broken. I doubt there will be a sensible point level for them and their rules will need to change. Castellan should lose blast at the very least.

I think you missed that they have a 4++ via the Librarian.

I do agree they feel over the top right now and will be very curious to see how they fare in early tourney play as metrics are gathered.

No, I'm aware. It's just a tool to deal with certain scenarios.

Also the prior math wasn't right. 6 guys are 18 shots. With Oath you can fish for 6s which become 3 hits.

(( 18 * .306 * 3 ) + ( 18 * .584 )) * .888 * .5 = 18 desolators

So theoretically you only need 3.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Lightning claws listed separately from other power weapons, by the way.

Unless you are a vanguard veteran. Then suddenly for some reason (too many were just buying VV instead of Assaults most likely) you have one claw that functions in melee and another that only can block as a shield or somehow be used as a pistol...

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

I guess maybe a bit? Like I can imagine them fixing the dkok medipack. But I don't imagine there will be large balance changes at this point. Never say never I guess.

 Trickstick wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

I guess maybe a bit? Like I can imagine them fixing the dkok medipack. But I don't imagine there will be large balance changes at this point. Never say never I guess.

In my opinion, 'balance changes' will arise automatically by introducing new units, new models (with diverging options/box loadouts) for existing kits and by correcting the odd error. The only reason GW is downplaying how often they will touch and re-touch the actual cards is that they are currently selling printed cards, which no sane person would touch if they openly told you that these would be essentially useless in as little as three months. Just like they can never - in practice - stick to their simplifications and start to accrue cruft as soon as the first codexes get released, their claims of these cards remaining useful forever are marketing, pure and simple. At some point (looking at you, Dark Eldar) there will come the time when they tell you ''This range has got so much new stuff/so much change/ so many revisions that they're essentially a new thing, here's your new card pack, that one's gonna stay forever, honest *wink* *wink*'' Votann are another hot contender, since they'll probably get another half of an army next turn around.

So yeah, pretty much 'wait and see'. At least wait for the Tyranid and SM codexes before calling it.

Tsagualsa wrote:
At some point (looking at you, Dark Eldar) there will come the time when they tell you ''This range has got so much new stuff/so much change/ so many revisions that they're essentially a new thing

Sorry, which century are we talking here?

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

Or I hadn't realized it had already been previewed, and didn't expect something that wacky to be in the new "stream-lined" edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:


I guess maybe a bit? Like I can imagine them fixing the dkok medipack. But I don't imagine there will be large balance changes at this point. Never say never I guess.

There will be an update soon after release, but not tomorrow or anything - they're going to take a beat to collect all the typos and versioning errors - stuff like missing keywords, and such I'd expect about a month to three after release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Lightning claws listed separately from other power weapons, by the way.

Unless you are a vanguard veteran. Then suddenly for some reason (too many were just buying VV instead of Assaults most likely) you have one claw that functions in melee and another that only can block as a shield or somehow be used as a pistol...

Yeah this was not a good edition to have the word Veteran in your name.

Sternguard lost a big chunk of their niche.

Vanguard got it even worse.

Tyrannic War Veterans wish they were Vanguard Vets.

Veteran Intercessors disappeared.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

I guess maybe a bit? Like I can imagine them fixing the dkok medipack. But I don't imagine there will be large balance changes at this point. Never say never I guess.

In my opinion, 'balance changes' will arise automatically by introducing new units, new models (with diverging options/box loadouts) for existing kits and by correcting the odd error. The only reason GW is downplaying how often they will touch and re-touch the actual cards is that they are currently selling printed cards, which no sane person would touch if they openly told you that these would be essentially useless in as little as three months.

It'll come down to cost. Is it cheaper (with the discount I get from my FLGS) to buy the cards or to buy black ink cartridges for my printer?

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wouldn't count on Deathstrikes remaining the same...

Wdym? We've seen the deathstrikes, short of the points.

"The real datacards will be different" is already the variant of 'wait and see' for 10th edition.

I guess maybe a bit? Like I can imagine them fixing the dkok medipack. But I don't imagine there will be large balance changes at this point. Never say never I guess.

In my opinion, 'balance changes' will arise automatically by introducing new units, new models (with diverging options/box loadouts) for existing kits and by correcting the odd error. The only reason GW is downplaying how often they will touch and re-touch the actual cards is that they are currently selling printed cards, which no sane person would touch if they openly told you that these would be essentially useless in as little as three months. Just like they can never - in practice - stick to their simplifications and start to accrue cruft as soon as the first codexes get released, their claims of these cards remaining useful forever are marketing, pure and simple. At some point (looking at you, Dark Eldar) there will come the time when they tell you ''This range has got so much new stuff/so much change/ so many revisions that they're essentially a new thing, here's your new card pack, that one's gonna stay forever, honest *wink* *wink*'' Votann are another hot contender, since they'll probably get another half of an army next turn around.

So yeah, pretty much 'wait and see'. At least wait for the Tyranid and SM codexes before calling it.

That isn't the context of the 'wait for the real cards', though. Of course there will be new models with new cards, and fixes for the oversights (though maybe only in pdf form for the roadmap codexes).

Its the people claiming that the CC warriors will get a completely different card with full options when the codex comes out. Or that 'rule X will be rewritten' on the merits that the poster just doesn't like it. That's the stuff I'm objecting to, because its completely baseless and is actively giving people the wrong idea. Consolidation is happening widely, its part of an ongoing trend. Its weird that it hit space marines in just the vanguard veterans, but it certainly isn't going away for Xenos or Chaos. Not now and not in three months.

Maybe in late 2024, the armies still limping along with just the index cards are in for a treat from the mid-edition paradigm shift, but for the most part, this is the system as designed and intended.

Voss wrote:


Its the people claiming that the CC warriors will get a completely different card with full options when the codex comes out. Or that 'rule X will be rewritten' on the merits that the poster just doesn't like it. That's the stuff I'm objecting to, because its completely baseless and is actively giving people the wrong idea. Consolidation is happening widely, its part of an ongoing trend. Its weird that it hit space marines in just the vanguard veterans, but it certainly isn't going away for Xenos or Chaos. Not now and not in three months.

Maybe in late 2024, the armies still limping along with just the index cards are in for a treat from the mid-edition paradigm shift, but for the most part, this is the system as designed and intended.

Nah, its not going to be completely rewritten cards, its going to small changes - like the way they rolled back the power curve on Cents. First they lost Bolter Drill, then they missed out on CORE. For example, after seeing Grav I'm even more inclined to believe Thunder Hammers are going to get a boost - potentially some sort of Anti-Vehicle but long before that we should get a clean-up update. Most of the special characters don't have an armor type keyword unless it's GRAVIS to make sure they take two spots, but that means they can't get in the Impulsor based on how the rule is written. A number of the Dreadnaughts are missing the DREADNAUGHT keyword. Stuff like that and any glaring issues like the Aeldari complaints should be up soon after.

" Of course there will be new models with new cards, and fixes for the oversights "

Not sure why you went out of your way to cut that out if you were largely going to agree.

Voss wrote:
" Of course there will be new models with new cards, and fixes for the oversights "

Not sure why you went out of your way to cut that out if you were largely going to agree.

Not sure why you think accidentally clipping the first line of your post with the large swath of Quoted Quote Post was "going out of my way".

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

That's OK, Hellblasters can now ride in a Pod.

I'll never use Hellblasters because they are Primaris filth. *spits*

My biggest dissapointment in the release so far is that Sternguard are now technically Primaris. They have the Tacticus keyword and can't go in Rhinos or Razorbacks. However the Bolter Sternguard are essentially identical to OG Bolter Sternguard, and since they can Pod they work just as my Sternguard deployments in past years. They'll get a reluctant pass for now. But I hate it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I'll never use Hellblasters because they are Primaris filth. *spits*

OMG get over yourself. Just do counts-as with your old marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

That's OK, Hellblasters can now ride in a Pod.

I'll never use Hellblasters because they are Primaris filth. *spits*

My biggest dissapointment in the release so far is that Sternguard are now technically Primaris. They have the Tacticus keyword and can't go in Rhinos or Razorbacks. However the Bolter Sternguard are essentially identical to OG Bolter Sternguard, and since they can Pod they work just as my Sternguard deployments in past years. They'll get a reluctant pass for now. But I hate it.

Primaris have been out for 6-years now? How long do we have to wait before people like you stop mentioning how much you dislike them every time they're mentioned?

until GW finally removes the double unit entries and finally merges them as it should have been in the first place

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

That's OK, Hellblasters can now ride in a Pod.

I'll never use Hellblasters because they are Primaris filth. *spits*

My biggest dissapointment in the release so far is that Sternguard are now technically Primaris. They have the Tacticus keyword and can't go in Rhinos or Razorbacks. However the Bolter Sternguard are essentially identical to OG Bolter Sternguard, and since they can Pod they work just as my Sternguard deployments in past years. They'll get a reluctant pass for now. But I hate it.

Have you contacted GW about Sternguard? It looks like a misprint. I thought they talked about getting rid of the silly thing where Primaris and Firstborn are unable to share vehicles.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Drop Pods can enter play in the first turn. Their usual cargo of plasma-Sternguard are no longer plasma-Sternguard though.

That's OK, Hellblasters can now ride in a Pod.

I'll never use Hellblasters because they are Primaris filth. *spits*

My biggest dissapointment in the release so far is that Sternguard are now technically Primaris. They have the Tacticus keyword and can't go in Rhinos or Razorbacks. However the Bolter Sternguard are essentially identical to OG Bolter Sternguard, and since they can Pod they work just as my Sternguard deployments in past years. They'll get a reluctant pass for now. But I hate it.

Have you contacted GW about Sternguard? It looks like a misprint. I thought they talked about getting rid of the silly thing where Primaris and Firstborn are unable to share vehicles.

I think a couple dozen misprints/typos is to be expected when doing 2000+ datasheets at once, realistically the only option you have as a publisher is to release these into the wild and have the community spot them, that way you can do a day-zero-FAQ/Errata on the official release day, which seems to be what GW is aiming for. Not the dumbest strategy.

Apart from hiring competent people including proofreaders. But proofreaders cost money and hiring person who shouts waaagh with biggest enthusiasm is cheaper than quality developer. Remember gw hires by attitude over skill as their own admission.

Random realisation:

The apothecary biologis is a gravis lieutenant

His ability granting his squad [lethal hits], which is what all the other lieutenants grant. His special ability is more OC for his squad.

He's not a medic, he's a LT in white armour

xerxeskingofking wrote:
Random realisation:

The apothecary biologis is a gravis lieutenant

His ability granting his squad [lethal hits], which is what all the other lieutenants grant. His special ability is more OC for his squad.

He's not a medic, he's a LT in white armour

His big medical box is just a metal drum full of rocks and old boxnaught models, with which he bonks people over the head. It all makes sense, that's why he doesn't have any healing skills

 vict0988 wrote:
Have you contacted GW about Sternguard?

It's not a misprint. The new Sternguard are Primaris Marines, and the old Sternguard kit ist kaput.