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Let's admit it: the troop choices in the C:SM codex are one of the lows of the entire codex. So much so that some lists I see only has two 10-man tac squads for their troop choice even in 1850 lists.

So is it better to field 3 or more full tac squads on 1500, 1750 or 1850 games, or just keep the bare minimum and buy other stuff with the points saved? Discuss.

Well, two full Tacticals in Rhinos or with Razorbacks are fine at the 1500 pt level.
When going up to 1750 or 1850 pts, I'd add a Scout squad eventually mounted in a Storm.

20 tactical marines are fine @ 1500, maybe you could get away with 15.

20 or 25 tactical marines should be enough for 1750, with 25 being best for 1850.

Always go for bare minimum tactical squads. They are the weakest link in the codex.

I actually bring 20 tactical marines and a scout squad below 2,000; I add 10 tacticals more when I get higher than that.

In general, any army wants about 6 scoring units at the 2000 point level. At lower point levels, you can probably get away with 4 to 6.

The reason for this is that pretty much all of the 5th edition books actually have pretty good troops, and objectives are important. This is why you see a lot of competitive lists with at least 30 scoring marines, or a larger number of non-marines.

I'd say that 2 tac squads is fine at 1500, and 3, or 2 and 1-2 units of scouts is good for higher levels.

how embarrassing. also people need to stop calling it csm and sm

Hmm, you think one can get away with 20 tac marines in a 1850 list? Or would that be too hard? That saves you 200+ to purchase other spammable stuff, preferably ones that will attract fire.

starsdawn wrote:Hmm, you think one can get away with 20 tac marines in a 1850 list? Or would that be too hard? That saves you 200+ to purchase other spammable stuff, preferably ones that will attract fire.

Absolutely. You only need to control 1 objective to win any game... contest or clear the rest with units that are better and more killy. With 2 tactical squads you have 2-4 scoring units to do that with. You just have to play careful. If you see the other guy targetting your scoring units, you can play around that. Honestly if they go after your tactical squads that leaves the killy stuff free to wreak havoc and you need to be prepared to take advatage. With rhinos, terrain, etc... it should not be too hard to hide a marine or two if you see it going that way. Take advantage of "combat tactics" and "they shall know no fear" to make sure they have to shoot every last one, combat squads to increase number of scoring units, and rhinos to protect them.

-Myst

With SM you should do fine with 2-3 full tactical squads at any of those levels. Especially with the Combat tacitcs you should do fine. I always run3-4 troop squads in my CSM lists at these levels. Since you have to spend more points on other units 2-3 should do you fine.

People bash tacticals a lot because they are not a good unit, but combat squads turns a tripe unit into hot dogs. 2 to 3 scoring units would be insanity for most armies, but thanks to combat squads sm can get away with it, and best of all the squad stays together in a kp mission. While tac squads are not as good as grey hunters, csm, or pm combat squads does mean codex marines can spend a lot less points on troops than sw or csm.

Bah. I like my tactical marines. I don't spam them, but the ones that I bring serve me well.

In general, any army wants about 6 scoring units at the 2000 point level.

What? If by 6 scoring units, in this case, you mean "3 combat squadding troop selections" I will give you this one. If however, you mean "Fill up all 6 FOC slots with space marine troops!" I very much want to see a list that isn't completely laughable made along these lines.

The reason for this is that pretty much all of the 5th edition books actually have pretty good troops

Codex troops are absolute crud for actually killing things. What exactly are you comparing them to? IG Veterans? Strike squads/Purifiers/GKTs/GKPs? Grey hunters? Warriors? Wyches? BA assault squads? Marked CSM? Daemon troops? GK Henchmen? Heck, while we are at it, lets add in some oldbies that have some pretty severe advantages over 5th ed tac squads: BT 5 man las/plas, and deathwing! Heck, even tyranid troops can go toe to toe with tacticals and win...with the caveat that the tacticals in this case actually HAVE enough versatility to CC the shooty ones and mostly-shoot the CC ones.

To boot, a lot of the above will actually withstand punishment/certain kinds of punishment better than a tactical squad in the field on top of it.

However, I will grant you that codex marines have better troops than Firewarriors and necrons. That is not setting the bar very high though.

For me, at 1500...2x10 marines in rhinos. 1750 is the same. 1850 I throw in snipers and telion. Rest of my list is devoted to things that actually get the job done.

Absolutely. You only need to control 1 objective to win any game... contest or clear the rest with units that are better and more killy.

What this guy said. ^^^

SOFDC wrote:

In general, any army wants about 6 scoring units at the 2000 point level.

What? If by 6 scoring units, in this case, you mean "3 combat squadding troop selections" I will give you this one. If however, you mean "Fill up all 6 FOC slots with space marine troops!" I very much want to see a list that isn't completely laughable made along these lines.

weeellllll.... last saturday I played a multiplayer game which spiraled out of control due to poor organization and people not being invited and people inviting themselves and people who were invited being forgotten about... the long and the short of it was we ended up playing something like 4.5k per side (non apoc), and 60 tac marines can be pretty ing hellish to deal with, forming a cordon around whats really tearing us up. That, and our SM player has Absolute Faith in His Marines (One tac squad. One DP of slaanesh with all the options (Daemons codex). God they beat the crap out of him (3 p. weap wounds and 4 unsaved normal (!!) wounds. Faith in your wargear works).

That is a bit of an exception though due to the size of the game 2-4 always seemed the magic number to me.

Yea....the sheer size of the game puts it into territory where I cannot say I would take much seriously.

Betcha 25 TH/SS terminators make a better cordon though. Same cost.

Tactical Marines arent that bad. Its all about kitting them properly.

Everyone throws a fit when a 10 man tactical squad with an MM gun is holding an objective in cover - thats the most reislient MM gun platform you will see. This is actually something other army troops cannot do. They are even scarier when you have Vulkan.

It's not that Tac marines are really weak, its just that other troop choices are more attractive in paper: at least to the weaker players who cannot make Tac marines work =P

I usually just bring 2 full tac squads at most point levels. As points go up I add scouts, go over 2k, and I bring the 3rd full tac squad.

Tacticals are the bread and butter of the books, you need them to score, and you need that generalist unit to plug holes, and lay down some supporting fire. They do a good enough job, and they are relatively hard to kill compared to other armies "better" troops. The fact they have ATSKNF and combat tactics (assuming no chapter tactics) makes them hard to finish off in CC, so they tarpit non PW/PF units quite well.

That being said, a diet of only bread and butter is pretty awful, so you need to spice it up with more specialized support units. Even then, in objective missions, those superior units real role is to make sure those tacs live. Either by dieing in their place, or killing the enemy.

In kill point games, tacs are trash compared to other units, which IMHO is what a fair number of people think of when evaluating units. Well, 2/3 BRB missions aren't kill points, so having enough tacs to score with without handicapping yourself is a balancing act. One that consensus seems to put at 20-30 scoring marine bodies at most point levels.

Everyone throws a fit when a 10 man tactical squad with an MM gun is holding an objective in cover - thats the most reislient MM gun platform you will see.

It might just be me, but I have never found a 170+ point, foot based, CC-able, snipe-able multimelta very threatening. It might be durable to bolter fire...as durable as any 10 MEQ bodies in cover will be.

It's not that Tac marines are really weak, its just that other troop choices are more attractive in paper: at least to the weaker players who cannot make Tac marines work =P

Yes, actually it IS that tac marines are really weak. That they aren't so absolutely worthless that the bolters they carry fire happiness and rainbows is irrelevant. Compared to SW, BA, BT, GK, and even Chaos, codex power armored bodies suck. Every single contemporary will A: Fight harder B: Shoot better (At some range band or another, usually in the 12 inch band, granted.) C: Take more punishment or D: Pick multiple at random.

Thing with using tactical marines to hold points, hold the line, etc. is the minor detail of actually forcing the enemy back. Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own. If you get a tac squad isolated by a remotely similar sized/costed grey hunter pack, or BA assault squad (Even without the requisite apothecary), MoAnything chaos, GK, or BT squad, then you you will be shot. Then you will be charged. Then you will either be mauled and thrown off the objective with a speed that would make most bartenders jealous, or you will desperately try to combat tactics out, hopefully falling back far enough to regroup yet also not going off-board.

This is not hard math. When the competition has double/triple your CC attacks, ignores your armor saves in CC (Or range!), has an almost guaranteed charge via jump packs, and so on...and is costed comparable to yours, the odds are not in your favor. While I admit that tactical marines CAN buy you valuable time to get yourself in an advantageous strategic position, what do you think the other player is doing? Rolling his face on his codex, thinking it works like a WOW keyboard?

SOFDOC: What's the #1 rule of 5th edition?

Never get out of thy transport. That's why a MM Tac squad works: They're sitting in a Rhino shooting the MM out of the hatch as a mobile bunker.

I run three tac squads minimum 1500 on up mostly so I have the objective taking power.

Never get out of thy transport. That's why a MM Tac squad works: They're sitting in a Rhino shooting the MM out of the hatch as a mobile bunker.

It works, but for who is the question. If someone wants to put a rhino with a MM inside within 24 inches of one of my GK rhinos, I will certainly not tell them to do otherwise. They can enjoy the not-ever-shooting experience that the damage table and movement restrictions place upon them while I approach, firing psycannons out the top hatch. Followed by throwing them off the objective.

I may have a unique perspective playing/having played GK, a bit of BT, and Ultramarines, but if you are expecting tacticals to do any real heavy lifting against an opponent who actually knows the codex you will wind up disappointed and defeated.

SOFDC wrote:I may have a unique perspective playing/having played GK, a bit of BT, and Ultramarines, but if you are expecting tacticals to do any real heavy lifting against an opponent who actually knows the codex you will wind up disappointed and defeated.

While I find this post to be somewhat hyperbolic, I agree that MM in a rhino isn't the best.

I much prefer Missile Launchers.

@ SOFBC: Agreed. Tactical marines are never going to do heavy lifting for C:SM as it presently stands. They either support a main offensive with assault terminators, or hold objectives. They don't even support the assault terminators that well, so really you just want them for holding objectives. That's why I take 20 tactical marines @ 1500 points. 10 in a rhino with a heavy, and 2x 5 in a razorback. The rhino squad is there to be a more resilient scoring unit, and the razorback squads are to support assault terminators and take objectives as they become cleared. Using more marines is not going to help you clear objectives any better, so they are really not needed.

SOFDC wrote:

Everyone throws a fit when a 10 man tactical squad with an MM gun is holding an objective in cover - thats the most reislient MM gun platform you will see.

It might just be me, but I have never found a 170+ point, foot based, CC-able, snipe-able multimelta very threatening. It might be durable to bolter fire...as durable as any 10 MEQ bodies in cover will be.

It's not that Tac marines are really weak, its just that other troop choices are more attractive in paper: at least to the weaker players who cannot make Tac marines work =P

Yes, actually it IS that tac marines are really weak. That they aren't so absolutely worthless that the bolters they carry fire happiness and rainbows is irrelevant. Compared to SW, BA, BT, GK, and even Chaos, codex power armored bodies suck. Every single contemporary will A: Fight harder B: Shoot better (At some range band or another, usually in the 12 inch band, granted.) C: Take more punishment or D: Pick multiple at random.

Thing with using tactical marines to hold points, hold the line, etc. is the minor detail of actually forcing the enemy back. Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own. If you get a tac squad isolated by a remotely similar sized/costed grey hunter pack, or BA assault squad (Even without the requisite apothecary), MoAnything chaos, GK, or BT squad, then you you will be shot. Then you will be charged. Then you will either be mauled and thrown off the objective with a speed that would make most bartenders jealous, or you will desperately try to combat tactics out, hopefully falling back far enough to regroup yet also not going off-board.

This is not hard math. When the competition has double/triple your CC attacks, ignores your armor saves in CC (Or range!), has an almost guaranteed charge via jump packs, and so on...and is costed comparable to yours, the odds are not in your favor. While I admit that tactical marines CAN buy you valuable time to get yourself in an advantageous strategic position, what do you think the other player is doing? Rolling his face on his codex, thinking it works like a WOW keyboard?

That's where your analysis is wrong because in a real game, troops rarely take on another guy's troops. Because you never fight a fair fight in 40k. You will always use what they are good against at. Ofcourse its bogus to outshoot Greyhunters or outassault Assault Marines with your tacs, and this is why a smart C:SM player will never do this. You can however, use the 10 man tacs to provide area denial with their MM, combat squad when there are more objectives.

When I was new to the hobby I thought that Tac Marines are really a gakky choice, and then I found out why they are called tactical marines. They are played for tactics. Your Greyhunters will do gak If I assault them with my gakky Tac marines because I have a PFist and yours dont. Your JP Assault Marines will look like imbeciles as I shoot them from cover or inside the Rhino, as you fail to make the difficult terrain roll in the assault phase.

Using your own logic and argument, I can say that Terminators troops beat all other troops. Why bother fielding grey hunters? Why bother fielding Dire avengers? Why even play the game?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

SOFDC wrote:I may have a unique perspective playing/having played GK, a bit of BT, and Ultramarines, but if you are expecting tacticals to do any real heavy lifting against an opponent who actually knows the codex you will wind up disappointed and defeated.

While I find this post to be somewhat hyperbolic, I agree that MM in a rhino isn't the best.

I much prefer Missile Launchers.

An MM rhino isnt the best - That is true. Question is will you bring your Landraider near my MM Rhino? Will you risk it? What if I Im fielding a Vulkan army, are you really going to risk a 450 point unit to a 200 pt unit with an MM?

Your Greyhunters will do gak If I assault them with my gakky Tac marines because I have a PFist and yours dont.

By the time you buy a powerfist on a tac squad, the GH pack has both its special weapons, a wolf standard and a powerfist or power weapon of its own. Why exactly would I not take a power weapon or power fist? I run PFs on my tac squads and I would not go without them on a squad that cannot combat tactics away from something like a dread. What exactly are you trying to prove here? One extra powerfist attack advantage towards the codex marines does not equalize the wolf standard, 2nd CCW, and counter charge.

That's where your analysis is wrong because in a real game, troops rarely take on another guy's troops. Because you never fight a fair fight in 40k. You will always use what they are good against at. Ofcourse its bogus to outshoot Greyhunters or outassault Assault Marines with your tacs, and this is why a smart C:SM player will never do this.

Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own.

Sounds real similar don't it? You're halfway to my point already. Here is the other half: The guy NOT playing codex marines has a lot more leeway in where he directs his support. If I believe my unit A can beat your unit, I don't absolutely need to send B, C and D in. They can go elsewhere, break other things, and stretch your forces thin. I could, of course...but I don't absolutely need to, and if my unit A can also score that objective after driving you off it, so much the better. It makes for an immediate need to pay attention to that squad with more support as the turns go on. I get to have the option where I -can- force a troop vs. troop fight and saddle my codex opponent with the options of a very good chance of losing the squad, or directing assistance to the fight and allowing me less resistance somewhere else.

Question is will you bring your Landraider near my MM Rhino? Will you risk it? What if I Im fielding a Vulkan army, are you really going to risk a 450 point unit to a 200 pt unit with an MM?

Depends. Do I need to? It's a land raider. I have a range advantage. I also have a CC threat range almost as long as the range on that multimelta to begin with. If the fire from the land raider coming in does not at least shake or stun the rhino that it is in, the thunder/daemon hammer(s) that are going to come out shrieking when the ramp drops will. Not going to be hard to get DT results and convert the twin linked multimelta into a twin linked paperweight. If all that is blocking my path is a single MM tac squad in a rhino, then yes. I will happily charge it with my LR+Terminators. Luckily, a GH unit is more than up to the task, while the LR trundles off to blow up something more important!

SOFDC wrote:

Your Greyhunters will do gak If I assault them with my gakky Tac marines because I have a PFist and yours dont.

By the time you buy a powerfist on a tac squad, the GH pack has both its special weapons, a wolf standard and a powerfist or power weapon of its own. Why exactly would I not take a power weapon or power fist? I run PFs on my tac squads and I would not go without them on a squad that cannot combat tactics away from something like a dread. What exactly are you trying to prove here? One extra powerfist attack advantage towards the codex marines does not equalize the wolf standard and counter charge.

That's where your analysis is wrong because in a real game, troops rarely take on another guy's troops. Because you never fight a fair fight in 40k. You will always use what they are good against at. Ofcourse its bogus to outshoot Greyhunters or outassault Assault Marines with your tacs, and this is why a smart C:SM player will never do this.

Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own.

Sounds real similar don't it? You're halfway to my point already. Here is the other half: The guy NOT playing codex marines has a lot more leeway in where he directs his support. If I believe my unit A can beat your unit, I don't absolutely need to send B, C and D in. They can go elsewhere, break other things, and stretch your forces thin. I could, of course...but I don't absolutely need to, and if my unit A can also score that objective after driving you off it, so much the better. It makes for an immediate need to pay attention to that squad with more support as the turns go on. I get to have the option where I -can- force a troop vs. troop fight and saddle my codex opponent with the options of a very good chance of losing the squad, or directing assistance to the fight and allowing me less resistance somewhere else.

Question is will you bring your Landraider near my MM Rhino? Will you risk it? What if I Im fielding a Vulkan army, are you really going to risk a 450 point unit to a 200 pt unit with an MM?

Depends. Do I need to? It's a land raider. I have a range advantage. I also have a CC threat range almost as long as the range on that multimelta to begin with. If the fire from the land raider coming in does not at least shake or stun the rhino that it is in, the thunder/daemon hammer(s) that are going to come out shrieking when the ramp drops will. Not going to be hard to get DT results and convert the twin linked multimelta into a twin linked paperweight. If all that is blocking my path is a single MM tac squad in a rhino, then yes. I will happily charge it with my LR+Terminators. Luckily, a GH unit is more than up to the task, while the LR trundles off to blow up something more important!

Listen, you are getting the wrong point here. We can Play paperhammer all day but it would make us all look like idiots.

Lets condense this into a simpler statement:

If Tac marines suck so much compared to other codices' Troop choice, does that mean we are not going to take them?

If Tac marines suck so much compared to other codices' Troop choice, does that mean we are not going to take them?

Unless you like using scouts as your general purpose infantry, or have some way to get around the 2 troop requirement for a legal army? What kind of question is this?

Of course you are going to take your two requisite choices. Because as bad as they are, tacticals are the best of your bad options most of the time. In a huge point game, you might even skip out of some of the more powerful units in the codex to get a third choice for redundancy. That is a far cry from buying a unit because it is an effective, efficient choice.

If you could take BA assault squads as your troops, would you ever again look at tacticals? No. I am willing to bet most would not. Grey hunters? I think you would be hard pressed to find tactical squads in an army after that, were it possible.

SOFDC wrote:

If Tac marines suck so much compared to other codices' Troop choice, does that mean we are not going to take them?

Unless you like using scouts as your general purpose infantry, or have some way to get around the 2 troop requirement for a legal army? What kind of question is this?

Of course you are going to take your two requisite choices. Because as bad as they are, tacticals are the best of your bad options most of the time. In a huge point game, you might even skip out of some of the more powerful units in the codex to get a third choice for redundancy. That is a far cry from buying a unit because it is an effective, efficient choice.

If you could take BA assault squads as your troops, would you ever again look at tacticals? No. I am willing to bet most would not. Grey hunters? I think you would be hard pressed to find tactical squads in an army after that, were it possible.

Yes thats exactly my point. You are stuck with tactical marines. Just because they suck compared to other troop choices doesn't mean you aren't going to take them.

TL;DR: Stop comparing them to the troops of other codices.

P.S.: Apparently, you are incapable of decrypting what a rhetorical statement is, and also incapable of grasping a well established point. And therefore will now leave you alone for the sake of me.

In addition, you can't really compare troop choices vs troop choices only. You have to see how they work in their respective lists.

In some ways that is true, but the topic at hand is not how good they are or are not, but rather how many to take for a C:SM army. Everyone here, I think, is on the same page : As little as possible.

edit: For me, that means 20 - 30 tactical marines @ 1500-2000.

SOFDC wrote:Yea....the sheer size of the game puts it into territory where I cannot say I would take much seriously.

Betcha 25 TH/SS terminators make a better cordon though. Same cost.

uhhh not quite the same footprint. Also they lack the "rapid fire all the bloodletters into the dirt".

p.s be less "waaaah the other codex marines are better", and deal with what you have


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:In some ways that is true, but the topic at hand is not how good they are or are not, but rather how many to take for a C:SM army. Everyone here, I think, is on the same page : As little as possible.

edit: For me, that means 20 - 30 tactical marines @ 1500-2000.

Gah? as little as possible is 10 marines! Why are you taking 20-30?