Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakka.

Just wanted to ask a quick question and get a bit of a discussion going.

While searching the popular auction site known as Ebay last week I noticed something, Pro-painted models, or so called pro-painted models.

This got me thinking what makes a painter or model pro-painted? i ask this as i have seen many people here who do indeed sell pro-painted models and they very much are PRO painted (some of you have some real skill) however i saw a good number advertised as pro-painted that were in my view very much badly painted.

What skill level do people here think you need to be to class as Pro?

(ah i put this in the wrong discussions section i am asking a mod to move it now, please do not pull me up on it as i am very much aware)

This topic actually cracks me up, as roughly 1/2 of the items that come up when you type in pro painted are either table top standard or less

Pro painted is a phrase that doesn't mean anything, just like how genuine draft beer doesn't mean that it's a draft beer.

When I first started using ebay in 2003, pro painted sorta meant something.
However it didn't take long before 'Pro painted' became a blurb folks threw on their lots in the vain hope to make them sell for loads more.

It's got worse year on year, same with the 'OOP' tag thrown on many figures that you can buy from GW for half the listed price.

I'd say since about 2006 to 2007 pro painted has been avoided as a term by serious painters selling on ebay, as many folks don't even look at them anymore. They just list as painted, and allow the pictures to sell the product.

It would be easy to be scathingly cynical, but instead I'll just say:

I think 'pro-painted' meant: an experienced painter had done it to sell it.

That's about it.

I think the phrase grew in popularity (with sellers of all kinds, beyond original artists) to denote quality, and today it is used as a search term really, in titles and descriptions, in most or many painted mini auctions and has become fairly meaningless, if it ever had any legitimacy.

I have been with ebay for over 10 years and a power seller for 7 or so, and I have seen that phrase come, and wane in popularity. There are still so many new sellers who post fabulous claims in very primitive auction formats and use power phrases like that, it's a little, passe.

"Pro-painted" is just a term used in auctions for the the search feature.

In theory it used to mean someone who makes a living painting minis, or has won awards, but as you've seen the term is so abused that it has lost any value.

If you going going off the term "pro" then it would be somone who makes a living at it, but in this case it is somone trying too sell their items at a better price. Generally in our hobby "pro" means more somone who has painting awards of note, I.E Crystal brush, Privateer Press's skull, MMSI award(one of the hardest too get actually), or as so many GW gamers know Demon. Personally I have found that no demon winner ever posts "Pro" in their titles as seldom those get looked at, but more "Demon winning artist" or something of sorts.

Pro painted doesn't mean much on ebay, you have no way to tell what actual quality you are getting as many pictures are terrible. I would skip them.

Only thing worse on ebay is "RARE OOP!!!"

To become a professional, someone has to pay you for what you would normally do as a hobby. So, as long as one single person has paid them to paint something, they are now a professional, now the quality of the paint job is not a factor that factors into that.

It's about as ubiquitous as "don't steal" on Deviantart. It's not indicative of quality whatsoever, and 3/4 times it's absolute garbage being sold for far more than is reasonable.

I think that on ebay, it indicates that the seller considers the paint job to be value added, and thus should sell for more due to it's paint job. As many have noted, this is often... optimistic.

In casual parlance, i think it generally indicates that an army was painted by an individual other than the owner, often by a studio.

Norsehawk wrote:To become a professional, someone has to pay you for what you would normally do as a hobby. So, as long as one single person has paid them to paint something, they are now a professional, now the quality of the paint job is not a factor that factors into that.

It depends if you mean 'painted for money' or painted to a 'professional standard'.

I think they are rather different things. Some people paint professionally and make money from it, I don't know if any do it as their sole means of income, but some of the top painters get a lot of money for their work. But given the hours put in to achieve that you are probably better off getting a regular job and painting stuff for yourself in the evenings.

But just because you get paid to paint something doesn't make you a 'professional'. If you give someone a few quid to help you do a bit of work around the house does that make them a professional at DIY? Hell no.

When someone claims their work is "pro-painted" I expect it to be painted to a professional standard, the people working in the GW studio doing the stuff for the box covers and battle reports are professional painters. Not someone who got a few quid for selling a painted mini on eBay.

The point is somewhat moot, a lot of the 'pro-painted' stuff on eBay isn't even competently painted.

When I see 'pro-painted' I just read 'painted', or in other words 'for stripping'.

Norsehawk wrote:To become a professional, someone has to pay you for what you would normally do as a hobby. So, as long as one single person has paid them to paint something, they are now a professional, now the quality of the paint job is not a factor that factors into that.

You're confusing two concepts, I fear. The world "professional" has many meanings, as a noun, an adjective, and as an adverb.

To be professional is to perform ones tasks with effeciency and a certain dignicity. When a person undertakes an unpleasant task quickly, competently, and without complete complaint, they are being professional.

To do something profesionally is to do it for a living, either full or part time. When a person does something for pay in a way that makes or enhances his living, he's doing it professionally.

To be a professional is to work in a profession, a small (but growing) number of fields defined (generally) by a high degree of education, governmental and/or industry licensing, and broad discretion in their approach to their work. The classical professions were clergy, law, and medicine, with psycholgists, vetinarians, architects, accountants, and a few others sneaking in there. If this sounds classist and elitist, than you're strating to get the point.

So, a person that makes a living by painting minis is doing it professionally. A person that takes commisions, delivers what he promises, and charges a fair rate, is being professional. Nobody that's painting miniatures is in a profession.

I'm a pro on ebay that is meant more in the auction setting though as I sell 1200-1400 auctions a week...maybe I should start saying pro hrmmmm.

Yeah I dislike the term pro-painted because it's largely meaningless for the reasons given by others already.

I set up my own store to sell some projects. I've always had more of an affinity for painting than gaming, so it just made sense and it helps keep me in the hobby/to practice all kinds of techniques/standards. I'd like to think I'm professional in my approach - but I'm no professional painter. I'm not bad on my day, but I'm no Golden Demon winner either. I like to be as honest as possible, both with myself and to any buyers. I decided not to use the term as I have a personal dislike for it. It's become like a herd-phrase. I'm amazed some people even use it - I just couldn't label myself with such a term unless I was a true professional painter, but that's just me

I admit to abusing the term pro-painted, simply because...it sells better when I do

The odd thing is, I get pissed off when I see other people listing their less-than-stellar miniatures as pro, then I go and do the same thing.

I'm a hypocrite!

Anyone genuinely selling pro-painted models would add pictures of high enough quality to allow the buyer to judge.

Personally, I'd expect high gaming standard to be acceptable as "pro painted". Not award winning necessarily, but high quality, no significant flaws, and using advanced techniques.

Anything else, I would assume the paint needed stripping (and so reduces the value).

Dark-Omen, your painting is of pretty high quality, judging by the LOTR set you posted recently. I imagine your buyers would let you know otherwise.

I agree that the term is widely over used. I actually do paint and sell models on ebay, but have NEVER used the "pro-painted" to describe my work. I paint to table top standard and take pictures with a very nice digital camera. As soon of the above posters have said, i let the pictures do the talking. So many clain to be pro-painted and are barely even to table top quality. So i avoid using the term like the plague.

Dark_Omen wrote:The odd thing is, I get pissed off when I see other people listing their less-than-stellar miniatures as pro, then I go and do the same thing.

Modestly said, I grant you karma + 1.
I understand what you mean. I have had to resist posting the phrase myself, I don't think I have but after so many auctions who knows.

I have found myself writing things like:

'These painted minis are of average quality for a table top game'
'These figs have low grade paint jobs but are metal and could be cleaned'
'These are simple clean paint jobs for play'

All of which match, in my opinion, comparable things I have seen online as 'pro-painted'. Any of those, I think more honest sentiments, could be actually what pro painted means now. YMMV.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Pro painted is a phrase that doesn't mean anything, just like how genuine draft beer doesn't mean that it's a draft beer.

My favorite is "draft beer" and it is in a can.

Most of the "pro painted" on ebay is essentially its painted so pay me more money. So pro in the essence of you are paying for the paint job.

I occasionally sell surplus products on eBay. I am a professional painter (my painting is my primary source of income, supporting my family of four) and I don't use the term "pro-painted" in my auctions. It doesn't mean anything and is a waste of my limited resource of letters.

R.

I'm with the "if you painted a minature, and someone paid you for it, you are a pro-painter" crowd. It's not like you get a certification or whatever in miniature painting.

If you can't beat them, join them, or better yet, one-up them!

If I ever sell my miniatures, I plan to call them Artisan-painted. That way I can sell my awful work to both morons AND hipsters with more money then sense.

This is a bit of a loaded question and on other forums comes up quite often. It is really a "fluff" term like "Extra Strength, Museum Quality, or Collectable." I mean I could consider myself a propainter as I sell minis on Ebay for money. Speaking of which: http://shop.ebay.com/chuck_the_painter/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

However I am not even in the calibur as say a Haley, Wapple, or Fontaine. I bet however I have sold more minis then they have. Does my quatity over their quality not allow me to use that term?

I simple state my models are painted and I sell at a fair price. I do not use the term pro-painted as I do not want to be lumped in with those people who drop a mini in a paint can and call it "Pro-painted."

Haha Ouze, I would definitely not buy anything that was that pretentiously named, for the opposite reason

I think Polonius has hit the nail on the head. Although you could argue that being a 'professional' isn't necessarily something elite, but just indicates that you have received a level of training or education that allows you to take part in a job. There are a number of professional smart-asses on this very board, for instance

In sporting terms, 'professional' always (and still does to an extent) denotes that someone partakes in the sport as their only job - i.e. it is their primary source of income.
Therefore I would say the vast majority of ebay listings (although there are people who paint miniatures as their primary source of income) are just by people who don't understand what the term means, instead using it to label their work as being produced to a high standard.

The other term being bandied about far too much is 'commission'. People paint up a couple of minis for a mate, who buy them in a beer in return, and they want to make it sound as they are part of some special painting studio with orders to fill.

i dont understand why you wouldnt paint your stuff yourself anyway, army painter has made is reasonably easy to get a good looking amry cheaply. Less anyone actaully buys this stuff the less we will see it.

I hate it how I see the words PRO and the models are terrible or below tabletop, really annoying!

Pacific wrote:Haha Ouze, I would definitely not buy anything that was that pretentiously named, for the opposite reason

What if I told you that my Artisan-painted miniatures were sustainably developed by me, using wholly organic methods obtained from independent marketplaces, and a percentage of all sales¹ would be going in microtransactions to support a impoverished third-world² artist³?


¹100%
²Iowa
³Me

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:It's got worse year on year, same with the 'OOP' tag thrown on many figures that you can buy from GW for half the listed price.

That is quite annoying because far from being a matter of opinion that is a specific term. I see it quite a lot, people using it to get attention on their stuff even though it is still on the shelves in GW.

Then there's 'Rogue Trader'. If it's not Rogue Trader era then don't list it as such, but there are people who think anything a bit old looking counts as rogue trader. It's mis-selling.

It has lost it's meaning.

If they are trying to imply that they have worked in the industry painting models, not just as a hobby, then the seller should be able to back that up with evidence of who they worked for and other examples of their Professional work.