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IG Commandments, because some of our brother generals don't get it yet.

1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on each Hardened Veteran Sqd. 

4) Thou Shalt use complimentary Heavy/special weapons. (Don't mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad)

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank.

6) Thou Shalt not use mortars EVER and grenade launchers sometimes...maybe...

7) Thou Shalt not forget your troopers are only BS3/ 5+sv.

8) Thou Shalt not waste a doctrine point to change this.

9) Thou Shalt not be cheap and attempt to do with 3 missile launchers, what should be done with 3 las-cannons

10) Thou Shalt not post army lists with broken Commandments and ask if it's a "good list".

IG GOLDEN RULE: Everything Counts in Large Amounts!!

* Some have mentioned putting PPs in the Vet sqds. As a sacrificial unit, I think the 20-30 points are better spent elsewhere. Thats another sacrifial unit of remnants w/ a flamer...

* RR's are the best Counter Assault we've got, but don't over do it with them. Anything beyond 6 is too many. This is the only unit worth paying for the Vet SGT upgrade. I wouldn't bother with anywargear though.

* It's been brought to my attention that a single Bassy might be worth breaking the 5th Commandment. I'm not convinced though. If I can field 1, I can find the points to field 2. If I'm playing under 1k pts, I generally wouldn't field any.

 (list based off principals that HBMC has pointed out too many times to not sink in yet)

Agreed on all points.


To elaborate:

Imperial Guard is one of the most complex armies to make a list for in 40,000, and the doctrines give you a lot of rope to hang yourself with.

The Codex was also not written with 4th ed. rules in mind - so a lot of the choices have become bad to the point of being nonsensical as a result. Some options (shotguns) just blew to the begin with. Others (Enginseers) have been neutered by FAQs in ways not immediately apparent from their entry in the Codex.

The result of these things is that most Imperial Guard armies tend to have a lot of common elements. Too much deviation from these in a standard regiment tends to result in a list that really doesn't have enough firepower to accomplish what it needs to do.

Nice work, I think this is some great advice.  There's a few things I would add:

- When in doubt, Rough Riders are your best bet for counter-charge
- Iron Discipline is one of the best Doctrines in the list
- Sharpshooters is really only cost effective in heavy weapon squads

And the Golden Rule of the IG:
Quantity has a quality all it's own

Not to go against my own advice, but in a thread at the Relic forums recently someone posted up a big thing on Guard (that I wrote), and it generated some interesting responces. They was the usual amount of noise from people saying "How can you not like Missile Launchers - they're better than ACs!", all of which was pretty easy to shoot down. However, one particular poster came up with a weapon combo that I honestly hadn't thought of and, now that I've been thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

BYE

Ok some questions, as I'm starting IG myself (n00b alert).

Should you give special weapons to command squads, if so, what and how many?

Is it a good idea to take a sacrificial light infantry unit to push back infiltrators (70pts, maybe 76 with flamer)? What about using 5 vets without special weapons for this role (45)? Or even giving light infantry to a weaponless command squad (only 10pts)?

Is it worth giving heavy weapon squads light infantry if you have 3 heavy support and 2 troops to deploy first?

Do rough riders have to have at least a certain amount to be useful? Are rough riders important in a 3 lemun ~80 man army?

Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?

is it dumb to give multiple (4?) grenade launchers to a command squad, just to jump out and shoot within 24?

-g

Ok some questions, as I'm starting IG myself (n00b alert).

Should you give special weapons to command squads, if so, what and how many?

Is it a good idea to take a sacrificial light infantry unit to push back infiltrators (70pts, maybe 76 with flamer)? What about using 5 vets without special weapons for this role (45)? Or even giving light infantry to a weaponless command squad (only 10pts)?

That is why you have tanks and hellhounds, infiltrators want to be up close and in cover, you want your tanks to be behind any cover you can get on turn one, especially now that you can move and shoot. however, in all infantry guard, push back units can be a good idea.

Is it worth giving heavy weapon squads light infantry if you have 3 heavy support and 2 troops to deploy first?
It all depends on a the list. However in general light infantry and heavy weapon squads mix well, but personally not a big fan of heavy weapon squads.

Do rough riders have to have at least a certain amount to be useful? Are rough riders important in a 3 lemun ~80 man army?
Yes, I would go 5 and a vet as the minimum size to take. Also, they are very important, no matter how good your shooting something will reach your lines..... Make sure it dies....

Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?
No, It would only get one shot a game, and then only if I was very lucky.

"is it dumb to give multiple (4?) grenade launchers to a command squad, just to jump out and shoot within 24? "

I wouldn't say dumb. There are more effective choices though. This combo can do a lot of damage vs. Tau - but the trouble with that is that you'll only get one shot and you likely won't be able to do enough damage to make it worthwhile.

"Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?"

Yep. Deep Striking (drop troops) Remnant squads with a Meltagun are only 40 points and reasonably effective.

I wouldn't give it to line infantry squads though.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

I've been building my list using this as there really didn't seem to be much else that really paired-up well with the heavy bolter... the heavy bolter/flamer and heavy bolter/plasma both didn't make much sense to me... as neither weapon really matches-up well with the heavy bolter.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

...doesn't seem that bad...GL squad...want to test it out.

BYE

The apocalypse is coming.  Or someone else is borrowing the account...

@onlainari: Heavy weapons platoons can actually do reasonably well in the role for which you imagine them - sacrificial officers and sneaky grunts. You get a forty point squad as heavy support, perfect for pushback duty, then 3-9 heavy bolters, or autocannon if you're in a light-vehicle-heavy meta. Jungle Fighters is all right if you tend to play with a couple of forests - it's even nicer if you can find a 7"+ deeper wood and deploy them just inside it - shoot your heart out with direct fire weapons and avoid return fire. Sharpshooters can work okay on heavy bolter squads as well, as you're bound to roll a few ones. One other little squad I've always like the looks of is a platoon command squad with Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline and close order drill. 70 points for LD10, and noone else has to bunch up unless they want the I bonus. Give the Command HQ a banner (56 points with Iron Discipline) and you have your "general" and "bsb" split up.

Tangentially - or more generally - missile launchers actually are the most efficient anti-MEQ heavy weapon available to IG infantry. (note bold) I've got a personal bias against AT squads in general, as they make your big guns a little too easy to pick off. As the commandment goes, they're not space marines and they can't play at being devastators with only three ablatives for anti-tank guns. Lascannon/plasma gun is generally the best standard infantry armanent, barring a fluke in your environment like a lack of MEQs and/or AV13+ vehicles. Since the rest of the squad only has lasguns, you don't really sacrifice much firepower when targetting vehicles.

None of the IG weapon options are truly bad on all units, but a lot of them are bad against the most common armies all around. Mortar squads, for instance, do quite well against lighter infantry and vehicles, especially open-topped ones. Some people have decent luck with massed sentinels and gl/sb squads, for instance, due to non-traditional tactics and environments. If there aren't too many assault cannon floating around, carapace armour can be an interesting twist. However, assuming a 50%+ MEQ environment and a traditional, static IG line, the commandments are a definite starting point. If I might add one final commandment: Don't take Senior Officers unless you're feeling VERY fluffy. Voxes are also generally useless - independent squads will usually be better off with a Veteran Sergeant, who with COD will provide LD9.

edit - actually, I've got a point of confusion myself - do Advisors assigned to a squad with a doctrine also benefit from that doctrine? So, can a Commissar attached to Hardened Veterans infiltrate, does a Priest attached to a squad with Carapace Armour get a free suit, etc.?

wight-widow: advisors are considered part of their squad for all purposes, including doctrines, etc.  While the Vets infiltrate isn't a doctrine, the Commisar still gets a free ride, assuming you can actually attach him to the vets (they go to command sections first)

Keep in mind that the LD bonus of COD only applies to that squad for morale and pinning tests, it's not a general +1 to LD.  This means that an officer with COD can't use that bonus for his Leadership special rule.  The whole rule is a bit vague, but they've FAQ'd it pretty well by now.

As for HB/GL squads, they seem to be the natural descendant of the AC/GL squads back from the Rhino Rush days, except more geared up for Landspeeders or Tau then Rhinos.  This certainly merits playtesting, but I think that the mobility of a single GL in that squad is trumped by the increased power of the PG.  That said, i think that in an infantry heavy force, 4 GLs might have an advantage: enough S6 to threaten light vehicles, decent mobility (for IG), and it can hide and provide LD and Iron D. without losing much serious fire power.  This is similar to the 4 flamer squads, though with 24" range, they'll probobly get to fire once or twice a game, as opposed to every other game or so for the flamers. 

I seriously think the efforts to make GLs work stems from them simply being the most common special weapon in the range.  IIRC, only Tanith does not have a GL model, and Cadians get it in plastic.  I play praetorians, so I have stacks of GLs, and every plasma gun is a converstion, but the PG has only gotten better over time, while one of the perenial threats that the GL dealt with (transports) have dwindled in prevelance.

The list is great, although I would call Commandment 6 optional. I always give my HQ squad a mortar, just so that they get to do something while they're lurking around, providing leadership. GLs, it's hard to avoid becuase there are just so damn many of the buggers in whatever infantry box you buy.

Hmm, you guys may have a point about the GLs. I guess, if they are mashed into a PHQ, they might be relatively effective. Not to mention that Bookey has a point about the overabundance of them. Let's face it though. IMHO, the fact that they are so overly abundant shows their actual gaming value. If they were effective, GW would have made all of the Specials plastic. As it is, we're forced to spend an extra $10 to make a single sqd more effective.

In referance to the mortars though, I can only see them being somewhat effective if an entire "leg" army were to use them as their entire HW arsenal. Ok, maybe only a full HW Platoon of them. Let's face it though, they're just not effective on a 1 for 1 basis. More importantly, I can't think of a complimentary Special weapon. I'll take an AC/HB over it any day and have started the converting to make all of my line boys w/ Plasma guns.

Also, please Veterans, feel free to LMK of anything that needs to be added so our fellow Generals can learn from your XP... not that they'll bother rerading it or anything...

"I can only see them being somewhat effective if an entire "leg" army were to use them as their entire HW arsenal."

I did work something out like that a while back, seeing if I could make Mortars useful. I found that in order to make them useful you literally have to take nothing but Mortars, and that's just not worth it.

BYE

Changed to reflect mortars and GLs

Ok, now Flagg you said to search the forums before posting ny questions so don't blow a gasket, I did and have a question, (I have the reference sheet in front of me so I know these are legal)

I was interested in the following Doctrines
Cameleoline Cloaks, Cyber Armor, Iron Discipline, Grenadiers, and either Light Infantry or Jungle Fighters?

Do you believe these are a reasonable Doctrines to take for an escalation league?

I thought the Cameleoline cloaks would be very useful to have with light infantry since you can infiltrate your force to ensure you will have cover, but it might work even better with jungle fighters if I get to play on a board with trees?

Iron Discipline sounds like it is incredibly useful to give you a chance to regroup after being hit hard during the shooting phase.

I took grenadiers so I would be able to possibly field the army a bit cheaper than normal, since I wouldn't have to buy $70 worth of minatures to field one troop choice. . .

Cyber Armor, I thought would be fun for flavor to give the army a bit of its own fluff. . .

Doctrines wise....

ID is near the top of everyone's list in effectiveness.

DT is a popular one, combined with Vets to DS those vet meltas.

Mech- My preferred

LI- 'm looking into myself. Doesn't go with mech....if you can find a loop hole somewhere, think of it in the spirit of the game....2 complete opposites of the Infantry Division...1 or the other.

COD- Has its place I guess

Grens- Way to save a Doctrine point is to use Inducted ST's as an ally, so really no need.

The rest? As far as I'm concerned, see Commandments 1, 7, and 8, but there might be more XP'd generals who can find some devious combinations that might make these good. I'm just not one of them. Grunts backed up by tracks for me.

Don't forget #10 either. That's a biggey. Buying the ACTUAL dex would help you alot with these decisions though.

If you don't understand that posting army lists for armys you don't have a codex for and asking if it's good or not is irritating, then that's your problem. I simply attempted to answer your threads. The response was no, they're not good, becasue they were all illegal due to several discrepancies in every list.

Nobody should have to tell you that your IG list is illegal because you have 2 platoons with a HQ and 1 infantry squad in each. Nobody should have to tell you that you can't take an allied contingent of 2 elite GK sqds and 3 troop GK squads in that same IG force.

IMO, when I read an "is this list good?" thread, it is assumed that the poster has the general gist of what the basic FOC and HQ/Troops lines are. If you don't have the information to do these implied tasks, then you're not ready to post your list, again MHO. You can post your smart comments about me blowing a gasket and I can post smart comments about your ASS licking lists and contradictory statements till said Ass comes home. Atleast I can rest knowing that I taught you to search for info about your future projects first. Good job learning from me. Keep it up and you might just be able to throw up a list that is legal.

(Flagg, I am currently looking at the Armored Company vehicle download list so yes, I have a codex to read out of)

I am just wondering but why do so many people seem to prefer the heavy bolter sponsons to the Plasma Cannon Sponsons and a hull mounted Las-cannon on the Demolisher Tank? I have read a few dozen posts about peoples army lists, and each time people have yelled at them for having these on their Leman Russ Demolisher's?

I can only think of a few reasons and all seem circumspect but I could be biased because my usual army is Space Marines who get killed all the time by plasma cannons. . .

Reason 1: 35 points to put the plasma cannons and the Las-cannon on could be considered rather exspencive, however the increased range while you move up is nice.

Reason 2: You can't move and fire both of these weapons limiting your movement, and your target selections if you do decide to?

Reason 3: Because the demolisher cannon is so powerful people don't see the need to use plasma cannons since if you can kill it with a plasma cannons you should be shooting with your demolisher cannon. . .

Reason 4: If you don't put the plasma and las-cannons on you can put heavy bolters on and 3 hb's firing at once can work better if the armor on your target is only a 4+? This allows you to have more efficient target selection. . .

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

Not to go against my own advice, but in a thread at the Relic forums recently someone posted up a big thing on Guard (that I wrote), and it generated some interesting responces. They was the usual amount of noise from people saying "How can you not like Missile Launchers - they're better than ACs!", all of which was pretty easy to shoot down. However, one particular poster came up with a weapon combo that I honestly hadn't thought of and, now that I've been thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

BYE

You've apparently lost your mind. Can I remind everyone that a Grenade Launcher is 8 points and that for only 2 points more you get a plasmagun that has +1S, AP2 and can fire twice 12" and under?

With a Heavy Bolter unit you're going to have to stand still to utilize the HBolter, so you can't take advantage of the *one* positive of the GLauncher. . .the fact that it can move and shoot up to 24".


Why, pray tell, does a plasmagun not "match up" with a Heavy Bolter in a unit? Because the Plasmagun is AP2? Please.

I know the plasmagunner will often kill himself, but for 2 points more to have a weapon that is just as lethal against troops and light vehicles and superior to the Grenade Launcher in every real way. . .

. . .I think you've gone soft, HBMC. I expect better. 

Agree with Yak...what are you smoking, HBMC?

As a reasonably experienced Guard player, here are my two cents:

The ten commandments Flagg07 list are pretty much right on the money, although I?d add some provisios:


1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.

True enough. Although are we talking solely Wargear or anything from the Armoury? If it?s the latter, there are some weapons worth taking. I know many IG players swear by cheap-and-plentiful Power Weapons, for example, but I?ve never liked them. I also like adding Plasma Pistols to a deepstriking Plasma-toting Hardened Veteran Squad sometimes, just for that extra shot, but if I ever ran the math on it I?m sure I?d find it?s probably not worth it. It?s also expensive, costing the same as a regular Plasmagun.

The only pieces of Wargear I?d recommend are these four (in order of importance): the Honorifica Imperalis (for whatever reason ? most IG players like to save five points by making their Commander a JO w/HI which always struck me as extremely foolish, but in large battles I?ve always used an HSO and then given another JO the HI to increase the Leadership bubble and have a back-up, and I?ve seen this become more and more common lately); Surveyors (cheap enough to buy several, although be warned if you want line squads to have them then you?ll have to upgrade to Veteran Sergeants, and very useful against Infiltrators); Tech Servitors (only if you take an Enginseer, which I wouldn?t recommend, although I have seen the Cage tactic used very well with two Techmarines in the middle repairing the tanks); and the Macharian Cross (expensive and usually ineffective but very useful in table quarter games when you have to deploy first).

But remember: the First Commandment doesn?t tell us IG players not spend points on Wargear, just not to waste points. So get a little if it?s needed but don?t go overboard.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

Again, this is true. Of course, I consider it a sin to purchase Heavy Weapon Squads. They?re expensive, overpriced (which are two different things) and fragile.

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on Hardened Veterans.

I?m okay with this provided the 75 points is per squad! I like my three squads of deepstriking Vets, thank you very much. And I like sometimes adding that extra Plasma Pistol too. Stupid, I know.

4) Thou Shalt not mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad.

Obviously. But I don?t think it?s solely a question of range. It?s the mixture of weapons. A Lascannon should be with nothing else but a Plasmagun (or nothing). It?s either firing at really tough vehicles or at really tough infantry and the Plasma will help out in the latter case. Nothing will help in the former. (Yes, yes, Meltaguns will help but as you state the range is the problem.)

The other weapons can all take on light to medium vehicles and infantry and so can be combined with the Plasmagun or the Grenade Launcher (or again, nothing).

Flamers and Meltaguns shouldn?t be combined with anything. Ever.



I?d also add:

11) Thou Shalt purchase one Improved Comms per three tanks and/or per each 250 points above 1,500.

12) Thou Shalt equip all vehicles (possibly save the lowly Chimerae) with Extra Armour. Smoke Launchers do not offend the Emperor either.

13) Thou Shalt not equip any Sentinels with anything from the Armoury and will think long and hard before giving one a Lascannon.

14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there.

17) Thou Shalt not take Plasma Cannons on the Demolisher unless you are planning on performing the Cage.



Asmodai said:
Deep Striking (drop troops) Remnant squads with a Meltagun are only 40 points and reasonably effective.

Aah, but don?t forget you then have to drop the rest of the Platoon, which is generally ineffective (unless you?ve gone all Drop Troops, of course). Or you could walk the rest of the Platoon on but then you lose at least two, and more likely three or four, turns of shooting any Heavy Weapons.

So no, I?d never give Meltaguns to regular line squads unless I was going for an all-deepstriking army.

"14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there."


I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army.

I also disagree on the Vehicle equipment - Chimeras benefit about the most from extra armour, and I'd leave it off of Basilisks completely.

Asmodai said:
I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army.

Bullhockey. Plain and simple bull. Okay, to consider your argument piecemeal.

One, if deepstriking is an option, Hardended Vets with the Drop Troops doctrine are far better. You can get more special weapons so deal more damage. The unit is cheaper. And you don't have to pay to get the option. And this is meant to be a suicide drop, so the survivability of Stormtroopers is irrelevant. Fact is, they're going to die but would you rather lose more points or less?

And if deepstriking is not an option, or if you're playing in a tournament, the Stormtroopers are screwed. Short range weapons with a slow walking move of 6". Whoopee. The Vets can Infiltrate.

Vets are better at deepstriking, at infiltrating, and at being versatile. And they're cheaper. And pack more firepower. But I'm repeating myself.

(In all honesty, if there's one - or two - places I'd favour Stormtroopers over Vets it's in a Mech or AC list.)


Asmodai said:
I also disagree on the Vehicle equipment - Chimeras benefit about the most from extra armour, and I'd leave it off of Basilisks completely.

About the Basilisk, you're completely right. For some reason that slipped my mind. Doh!

I do put EA on my Chimerae but they don't really benefit from it. There are two main reasons to take Chimerae: as an added gun platform - in which case it should rarely if ever move; or as a last turn objective-grabber - a task to which they are not well-suited.

Again, in a Mech or AC list this would differ.

Posted By Stu-Rat on 02/28/2006 7:58 AM
11) Thou Shalt purchase one Improved Comms per three tanks and/or per each 250 points above 1,500.

12) Thou Shalt equip all vehicles (possibly save the lowly Chimerae) with Extra Armour. Smoke Launchers do not offend the Emperor either.

13) Thou Shalt not equip any Sentinels with anything from the Armoury and will think long and hard before giving one a Lascannon.

14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there.

17) Thou Shalt not take Plasma Cannons on the Demolisher unless you are planning on performing the Cage.

I can't agree with a number of your additions, I fear.

11) Improved Comms are nice and all, but investing (in the case of a Mechanized list of 9-12 vehicles) 75-100 pts of an 1850 list in it is overkill. Yes, games with Reserves happen. Yes, having the ability to reroll one failed Reserves roll is very nice. But if you fail 3-4 rolls in a turn, then rethink your plan - hide for an extra turn! You could have been buying guns.

12) Extra Armor is very useful only on transports carrying suicide-equipped units, e.g., multi-melta platoon commands. It is occasionally useful on heavy vehicles (which are scoring units in their own right), for late-game rushes. It isn't mandatory, though - a static gunline army w/3 Russes in the back doesn't care over-much if they can move on turns when they can't shoot.

13) I'll agree with you here - all Sentinels are fragile, easy-to-kill targets. Don't make them more attractive than they already were.

14) Mechanized lists can make good use of Storm Troopers, giving them the mobility they were lacking on foot, and delivering them to positions where their 4+ armor is useful (and where 5+ wouldn't be).

15) See above. And some of the Allied choices aren't horrible, if you're into Allies, particularly the anti-drop pod inquisitor w/his 2 mystics.

16) You left "Mechanized" off your list. Basically, this could be rewritten to something like "Pick one of the organizational doctrines first, and choose only those other doctrines which best compliment it."

17) I just plain disagree here. I wouldn't take a Demolisher WITHOUT buying plasma cannons & a lascannon. It extends the threat radius of the Demolisher by 50%, gives you a variety of choices to apply to different situations, and gives deep striking opponents fits. It's a matter of context, though - in a heavily-mechanized (or all-mechanized) IG force, there is no shortage of high ROF anti-infantry weapons, while AP 2 firepower is seriously limited. The Demolisher helps rectify that.

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/26/2006 9:27 PM

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on Hardened Veterans

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank

3) Not so long ago, I got into a conversation revolving around the concept of 3x 10 man vet squads w/3xplas & lascannon. For relatively few points over the cost of a basic line squad (where "few" means "less than 33% more"), you gained infiltrate, 2 more plasma guns, and better BS. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but I'm not willing to cast this rule into stone either. Testing needed (from a non-mechanized player; it wouldn't go as well with a mechanized approach).

5) "Thou shalt not use only one battle tank." A single indirect basilisk, added to an all-infantry force, is still quite effective, terrain permitting.

i dont think you should ever pay more then 85 points for H.vets
they should always have the drop troop doctrine even if you chose not to use it.

3 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol are standard. drop in and destroy terminator squads,hive tyrants,carnifexs.. anything with an ap2.. all for the bargain price of 85 points.

also, always throw seperate colored dice for each plasma gun. in case the same guys overheats 2 times. ive seen newbie's throw all 7 dice and remove all their plasma guns because they rolled 4 overheats.

"I do put EA on my Chimerae but they don't really benefit from it. There are two main reasons to take Chimerae: as an added gun platform - in which case it should rarely if ever move; or as a last turn objective-grabber - a task to which they are not well-suited."

Not well-suited as in being a dedicated transport and unable to hold objectives?

As a gun (Multilaser/HB) platform the Chimera can move fine since all but one weapon is defensive.

I don't recommend them as a pillbox for troops since being open-topped makes them far too vulnerable to enemy fire.

Ok, just double checking, does it make sense to give a 45pt command squad light infantry so you can throw them out in a 12" line in order to push infiltrating chaos and other forces back? Or would it be better to give them a plasmagun?

Are rough riders best in a unit of 6 or 8 (or it doesn't really matter)?

"I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army."

Since when did being able to better survive basic weapons mean anything to a sucide unit? The simple fact is for 75 points you can get 5 Stormies w/2 BS4 Meltas who will die the turn after they land or for 75 points you can get 5 H-Vets w/3 BS4 Meltas who will die the turn after they land.

BYE

for clairification, the 3rd Commandment is in reference to per sqd. I certainly agree that the use of multiple Vet sqds is an option. I'll adjust the commandment to better reflect this.

RR's are best in...cough...5? I know the whole thing about 6 over 5 and what not, it's just that once they are done with their lances, they don't do much else. This is simply based on my limited XP. 6 wouldn't be terrible, but 8 is over the top IMO.

ST's. We could argue for/ against all day. They are better than a Guardsman, vet or cherry, due to their sv. That being said, they are are 10 pts each as opposed to 6 or 8. But Flagg, you say, for 2 pts more than a vet, I get a better save and better gat. Your enemy will also shoot more at it IOT reduce them because they are so much better than regular guard. I think we can agree that the Vets are Kamikazes anyway so...

One tactic I have been thinking of is using a squad or 2 Inq St's in rhinos and using the rhinos as sacrificial wheeled cover. The intent being that they move to block off an avenue of approach or move up to block a firing lane. Granted it's giving up 100 pts of army potential, but since I've got the models it MIGHT not be a bad idea.