Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, on table top said armor is shameful and most of the time you might as well be naked. While I understand the theme that they were going for on table top stats, I find it hard to believe that your average ghostplate armor wouldn't at least be as durable as marine power armor. Considering how long eldar and DE has been alive, just the constructing material alone should be vastly superior.
I'm thinking in terms of how modern tanks would completely ignore a battering ram or pre-bronze age arrows and wooden spears totally failing against medieval steel full plates and shields.

So, just how reliable is the stuff? Like the armor you find on striking scorpions, guardians and the like. You know they're built for mobility but it would make no sense to call it armor from an eldar perspective if the "armor" was nothing but a t-shirt and really thin plates.

You got to remember one thing, besides mobility for 30K + years BEFORE the Imperium the Eldar only gave a rat's behind about one thing... aesthetics.

I.E. parade armor is flashy and fancy but it's not as good as the bulky not so shiny run of the mill stuff. The Eldar were so decedent they only cared about looking good....until the fall that is.

The DE still live by the motto 'If looks could kill'
The Eldar are just afraid to try anything newer then what they have and trust.

My input:

Fluff resiliency and TT stats are fairly consistent in this case. As far as the DE, some seem to have a very fatalistic and sadistic nature, hence their apparent lack of protection.

Dark Eldar can make very protective armour - Incubi wear the equivalent of power armour (and are also fleet). As has been stated the DE either don't really care or are overconfident in their own abilities (and their regen capabilities - if there is a bit of them left they can usually be regrown). Also Ghostplate - used by elite infantry has its own forcefield and the "officers" of the DE have even more powerful energy fields.

Eldar Aspect armour for their true warriors is as good as the best power armour the Imperium can muster....

Heavy armor doesn't really fit the Eldar stye of warfare. Both factions use decisive strikes that leave the soldier minimally exposed. I imagine wearing heavy armor capable of taking a lascannon to the face would just get in the way more than anything else, even if the Eldar are capable of making it.

Incubi and Striking Scorpions are exceptions since they kind of do their own thing in comparison with the rest of the army.

Ironsight wrote:Heavy armor doesn't really fit the Eldar stye of warfare. Both factions use decisive strikes that leave the soldier minimally exposed. I imagine wearing heavy armor capable of taking a lascannon to the face would just get in the way more than anything else, even if the Eldar are capable of making it.

Incubi and Striking Scorpions are exceptions since they kind of do their own thing in comparison with the rest of the army.

This has hit the nail on the head

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Ironsight wrote:Heavy armor doesn't really fit the Eldar stye of warfare. Both factions use decisive strikes that leave the soldier minimally exposed. I imagine wearing heavy armor capable of taking a lascannon to the face would just get in the way more than anything else, even if the Eldar are capable of making it.

Incubi and Striking Scorpions are exceptions since they kind of do their own thing in comparison with the rest of the army.

This has hit the nail on the head

Agreed. It's just not the Eldar's style to rely on heavy armor in combat.

terranarc wrote:Considering how long eldar and DE has been alive

As stated, there was the whole decadence factor when the Eldar had (I think) AI controlled machines do their fighting for them. Not only that, but in the Fall they lost a vast amount of technology and knowledge - if I remember correctly, relatively little remained intact. At the height of their power, the Eldar had little need to develop infantry armour and the like considering their Psychic and technological superiority coupled with the use of sentient robots.

The Dark Eldar also eschew the use of Psychic powers, and so presumably would have had to develop different materials and weapons to use, rather than Psycho-reactive materials.

I've never seen any source claim Eldar ever used AI. Humans had AI fighting their battles during the combined golden ages of respective Eldar and Humans, at the high of the Eldar imperium's power, the Eldar armies had problems completely wiping the Orks out, and it would only make sense that a great portion of the Eldar might was a superior space-born fleet - considering how all-powerful their Craftworlds are (which are essentially trading barges).

KingmanHighborn wrote:You got to remember one thing, besides mobility for 30K + years BEFORE the Imperium the Eldar only gave a rat's behind about one thing... aesthetics.

I.E. parade armor is flashy and fancy but it's not as good as the bulky not so shiny run of the mill stuff. The Eldar were so decedent they only cared about looking good....until the fall that is.

The DE still live by the motto 'If looks could kill'
The Eldar are just afraid to try anything newer then what they have and trust.

You're in the wrong universe.

Eldar's art of technology is derived from their gifts of ingenuity and knowledge gained from Vaul. Their sense of War was ingrained upon their souls by Khaine, while their arts of war was developed by mortal Eldanesh and further developed by the first Exarchs, the Phoenix Lords. Eldar loath exarchs and pities their warriors, even though they respect both. Their exarchs aren't even allowed to walk the craftworlds freely. Warfare to the Eldar puts their souls at risk of succumbing to the rage of Khaine.

The Eldar strive for perfection in aesthetics is derived from their paths and their ritual approach to both the manufacturing of the armour and the arts of war. The aesthetics are simply a by-product.

What you're thinking of is Warhammer Fantasy High Elves.

It is much more a case of complacency. For thousands of years, their imperium was completely unthreatened. Why would they invent new martial equipment then?

It really doesn't make sense that the Eldar couldn't have developed something as strong as Space Marine armor that was also flexible and light, given their level of technology before the fall. However this is a game and it does need to have some semblance of balance.

If Eldar and Dark Eldar were as technologically advanced as they should be all of their weapons would be S14 AP-10 and their armour would confer a 1++ save. Fluff doesn't have to align entirely with rules

The Eldar have been in a state of decline as much as the Imperium, and from the looks of it, both will soon be surpassed by the Tau.

Heck, we had such a situation on our real world already when you compare ancient Rome with how crappy the dark age looked like. That's just what happens in an environment where everybody is concerned just with survival instead of settling down and trying new things. Do Eldar even have scientists on their Craftworlds?

Some more examples: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php

Interestingly the current Dark Eldar codex suggest they are both expanding and have a very active sceintist (albeit mad, danagerous and sadistic) caste. This is in direct contrast to their craftworld cousins.

The Eldar do have scientists and technicians (the later are menitoned in some of the older fluff in Codexes / WD)but I guess only those who feel called to that particular art / disclipine. Pluss I guess there is a crossover with the psykers like the bonesingers .

Since CWE tech is mostly based on psychic interfacing, "scientist" isn't necessarily the correct word. Artist could just as well describe it.

Since Dark Eldar were retconned to be thriving, you might see something similar with Eldar - if only to justify their insane use of Guardians.

P.S. Lynata, Stradivarius violins are renowned, not technologically advanced. It's sort of champagne, renowned but not necessarily the best. That list is a bit... iffy... when it comes to what is technology and what is not.

Mahtamori wrote:P.S. Lynata, Stradivarius violins are renowned, not technologically advanced. It's sort of champagne, renowned but not necessarily the best. That list is a bit... iffy... when it comes to what is technology and what is not.

Oh, quite, I too would have changed some items for other things (ironically, I think some of the technology just briefly mentioned in the opener, such as plumbing or proper roads, would qualify far better) - but the list still contains excellent examples of what clearly qualifies as superior technology that has been lost, for whatever reason:

"The sophistication and precision evident in the design of the mechanism suggests that it was not the only device of its kind, and many scientists have speculated that its use might have been widespread. Still, the existence of other devices like the Antikythera Mechanism doesn’t appear on the historical record until the 14th century, which would mean that the technology was lost for nearly 1400 years. Why or how will probably remain a mystery, especially since the mechanism still stands as the only ancient discovery of its kind."

Now, looking at the birth of the Eye of Terror and the fact that a terrible Chaos God waded right through the middle of Eldar society - which at that time had already become stagnant and fixated on the experience of pleasure - it really doesn't strike me as odd that they would have lost a lot of knowledge and brilliant minds in the process of saving their hides. They've been on the run ever since. With the exception of the Exodites, but hey, those are even more primitive, having voluntarily opted for pursueing a "simpler life". And, of course, the Dark Eldar, but their "science" is probably focused on another angle and somewhat hampered by the way their society works.

It would not surprise me if many of the Crone Worlds would still contain relics and artifacts that are way beyond anything the Eldar could produce right now. Just like the IoM is relying on the re-discovery of ancient STCs.

terranarc wrote:So, on table top said armor is shameful and most of the time you might as well be naked. While I understand the theme that they were going for on table top stats, I find it hard to believe that your average ghostplate armor wouldn't at least be as durable as marine power armor. Considering how long eldar and DE has been alive, just the constructing material alone should be vastly superior.
I'm thinking in terms of how modern tanks would completely ignore a battering ram or pre-bronze age arrows and wooden spears totally failing against medieval steel full plates and shields.

So, just how reliable is the stuff? Like the armor you find on striking scorpions, guardians and the like. You know they're built for mobility but it would make no sense to call it armor from an eldar perspective if the "armor" was nothing but a t-shirt and really thin plates.

Human power armor ways hundreds of pounds and is extremely thick. Wearing it also hampers the wearers mobility to some extent. Even with the Eldars superior materials (Craftworld only, last I checked the DE don't have wraithbone, since they lack the psykers/bonesingers to actually use it), the armor would still have a negative impact on the wearers mobility, etc. The eldar favor a lighter/faster method of warfare, they simply don't need such heavy armor. There are exceptions to this of course, Incubi, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, etc.

Also, you have to realize that a 6+ save is better than modern day body armor/equivalent to the top of the line super-expensive body armor systems we have today. If a lasgun/autogun is S3 AP- and equivalent to a modern day assault rifle... and lets consider for a moment that US troops running around today wear armor that can way from 20 to 70 pounds depending on the exact system they are wearing, etc... and you have troops running around with 4+/5+/6+ armor in the Eldar armies that isn't very bulky at all by comparison, you gotta admit that they got some pretty superior armor tech.

chaos0xomega wrote:Human power armor ways hundreds of pounds and is extremely thick.

Aaaactually it's not that thick - at least not as thick as apparently often assumed. Looking at SoB power armour (which does, as per the codex, confer the same armoured protection as the Marine variant), the old Marine armour cross-section, I'd say we're dealing with a centimeter at best.

Of course that's still quite thick (way, WAY more than what was usual for medieval plate armour!), but below what many people assume just from looking at the pauldrons (who are indeed thicker due to their role as a "blocking" device, but do not transfer this to the rest of the suit!). That said, this is all relative. Eldar are more fragile than humans, and for an Eldar, human power armour might indeed come off as thick and clumsy. Their own armour might be as lightweight as a sheet of styropor and as thin as a casual jacket. It's always important to keep things in perspective, meaning that humans and Eldar do have different standards. In general, Imperial equipment is indeed more "crude" than what the Eldar employ, as they put emphasis on finesse and mobility. That said, this crude Imperial equipment is also quite effective in terms of raw power, which may indeed even things out a little.

@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor. What concerns me though is that even in the fluff, eldar supertechnology is not represented.

My point though, is that "heavy" armor is subjective. A medieval fullplate was considered heavy but the protection it offers is negligible in the modern world. A "medium(?)" kevlar vest from modern times would've rendered a person completely immune to arrows.
So what I'm saying is, you can't say that because eldar dislike heavy armor, they only use thin light armor and subsequently suck like your average guardsmen in half carapace or something. This assumes that the 2 races are of equal technology, which I'm pretty sure is not true (ignoring stuff form the golden age like mr. calgar's gloves).

The aesthetic part makes sense but to sacrifice complete function for fashion is a bit much, no? Also, you'd figure that there'd be eldar scientists who'd improve their wargear over time. Wait a minute... were there ever any eldar scientists?

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor. What concerns me though is that even in the fluff, eldar supertechnology is not represented.

My point though, is that "heavy" armor is subjective. A medieval fullplate was considered heavy but the protection it offers is negligible in the modern world. A "medium(?)" kevlar vest from modern times would've rendered a person completely immune to arrows.
So what I'm saying is, you can't say that because eldar dislike heavy armor, they only use thin light armor and subsequently suck like your average guardsmen in half carapace or something. This assumes that the 2 races are of equal technology, which I'm pretty sure is not true (ignoring stuff form the golden age like mr. calgar's gloves).

The aesthetic part makes sense but to sacrifice complete function for fashion is a bit much, no? Also, you'd figure that there'd be eldar scientists who'd improve their wargear over time. Wait a minute... were there ever any eldar scientists?

You're confusing two concepts: level of technological advancement with military doctrine. The two don't necessarily correspond. Being more technologically advanced doesn't mean everything is superior. In WW2 for example, the US had a bunch of technological advancements on the Japanese, yet we still couldn't make reliable torpedoes. The Japanese on the other hand lacked radar technology amongst other things, yet they had developed torpedoes that traveled 3 times farther at 150% the speed and 125% the payload of American torpedoes, and better yet they were harder to detect visually. Its the same thing here, Eldar technology is superior in a lot of aspects, that doesn't necessarily mean that every aspect is superior. I would say there armor is superior given the weight to protection ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its going to provide MORE protection. The weight-protection tradeoff is a very real one that is debated the world over even today.

The real question is why don't Eldar make widespread use of Protoss-style energy shields :p

chaos0xomega wrote:

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor. What concerns me though is that even in the fluff, eldar supertechnology is not represented.

My point though, is that "heavy" armor is subjective. A medieval fullplate was considered heavy but the protection it offers is negligible in the modern world. A "medium(?)" kevlar vest from modern times would've rendered a person completely immune to arrows.
So what I'm saying is, you can't say that because eldar dislike heavy armor, they only use thin light armor and subsequently suck like your average guardsmen in half carapace or something. This assumes that the 2 races are of equal technology, which I'm pretty sure is not true (ignoring stuff form the golden age like mr. calgar's gloves).

The aesthetic part makes sense but to sacrifice complete function for fashion is a bit much, no? Also, you'd figure that there'd be eldar scientists who'd improve their wargear over time. Wait a minute... were there ever any eldar scientists?

You're confusing two concepts: level of technological advancement with military doctrine. The two don't necessarily correspond. Being more technologically advanced doesn't mean everything is superior. In WW2 for example, the US had a bunch of technological advancements on the Japanese, yet we still couldn't make reliable torpedoes. The Japanese on the other hand lacked radar technology amongst other things, yet they had developed torpedoes that traveled 3 times farther at 150% the speed and 125% the payload of American torpedoes, and better yet they were harder to detect visually. Its the same thing here, Eldar technology is superior in a lot of aspects, that doesn't necessarily mean that every aspect is superior. I would say there armor is superior given the weight to protection ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its going to provide MORE protection. The weight-protection tradeoff is a very real one that is debated the world over even today.

Completely took all arguement out of the thread. Good on ya.

Mahtamori wrote:I've never seen any source claim Eldar ever used AI.

In 'A Torturer's Tale', Vect claims that "We constructed artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us" and "we did not sit idly by while our creations conquered the galaxy in our name". It suggests to me that they may well have created sentient machines (either that or they were continually Psychically controlling them, but even for pre-Fall Eldar that would likely prove taxing and certainly a drain on their concentration.

the Eldar armies had problems completely wiping the Orks out

From how the Eldar Empire is described, it may be possible that they merely chose not to wipe out the Orks rather than spend such an agonisingly long time in tracking down and wiping them all out. Much easier to simply destroy any that attempt to attack you and leave the rest to their bickering. Or send robots to fight them for you.

They have a suit of really heavy styrofoam covered in cardboard that has hooks on it that dig into their nerves and make them feel pain (no joke).

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor.

I don't think this is true.

Eldar tanks are fine... in the fluff they wouldn't be fielded anywhere where enemy AT is expected

In other words, if Eldar strike somewhere and there's resistance, something's gone wrong...

Hence why I look at every tabletop encounter as the Farseer f****ng up

chaos0xomega wrote:

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor. What concerns me though is that even in the fluff, eldar supertechnology is not represented.
My point though, is that "heavy" armor is subjective. A medieval fullplate was considered heavy but the protection it offers is negligible in the modern world. A "medium(?)" kevlar vest from modern times would've rendered a person completely immune to arrows.
So what I'm saying is, you can't say that because eldar dislike heavy armor, they only use thin light armor and subsequently suck like your average guardsmen in half carapace or something. This assumes that the 2 races are of equal technology, which I'm pretty sure is not true (ignoring stuff form the golden age like mr. calgar's gloves).
The aesthetic part makes sense but to sacrifice complete function for fashion is a bit much, no? Also, you'd figure that there'd be eldar scientists who'd improve their wargear over time. Wait a minute... were there ever any eldar scientists?

You're confusing two concepts: level of technological advancement with military doctrine. The two don't necessarily correspond. Being more technologically advanced doesn't mean everything is superior. In WW2 for example, the US had a bunch of technological advancements on the Japanese, yet we still couldn't make reliable torpedoes. The Japanese on the other hand lacked radar technology amongst other things, yet they had developed torpedoes that traveled 3 times farther at 150% the speed and 125% the payload of American torpedoes, and better yet they were harder to detect visually. Its the same thing here, Eldar technology is superior in a lot of aspects, that doesn't necessarily mean that every aspect is superior. I would say there armor is superior given the weight to protection ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its going to provide MORE protection. The weight-protection tradeoff is a very real one that is debated the world over even today.

True true but the difference in technology between the US and Japan at the time isn't remotely near the gap between the imperium and eldar. I mean, seriously literally compare the 2. Placing our world into 40k's, while we were fighting WW2, they were fighting the necrons. So while the US has difficulty producing torpedoes to compete with the japanese, the Eldar were having difficulty competing with necron lightning guns with their wraithbone constructs.
This is the difference I speak of.

Arturius wrote:

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor.

I don't think this is true.

It is. Especially in Spessh Marene fluff, their bolters basically shred through everything. I've yet to read a piece of fluff where a bolter didn't completely remove the breastplate off a powerarmor after impact.

WD127 says concerning Aspect Armour

WD127 wrote:This unique armour is the equivalent of Power Armour.

Do all aspects get the same armor?

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:They have a suit of really heavy styrofoam covered in cardboard that has hooks on it that dig into their nerves and make them feel pain (no joke).

This is only the Dark Eldar, and their armour is pretty much entirely for show.

terranarc wrote:Do all aspects get the same armor?

No. Some armor is 5+. Some is 4+. And some is 3+. Noticeably, the guys wearing the 3+ stuff don't get Fleet.

I've seen a number of posts above, but the *REAL* problem for Craftworld Eldar with regards to armor hasn't been mentioned. Eldar armor is intentionally (for the most part, anyway) lighter than the heavy, cumbersome stuff worn by the Space Marines. It's meant to be that way. But the reason it's like that is because the lighter armor provides greater mobility on the part of the wearer, which allows for a faster, more fluid and mobile style of combat. The Eldar style of combat is supposed to revolve around "Hit and Fade" tactics to keep the enemy off-balance. Hit your opponent where he or she is weak, but don't get too heavily engaged so that you can fade away when your opponent shifts his or her forces. The method that 4th edition used to demonstrate that was the Fleet rule, which was almost army-wide.

And then Fleet got changed in 5th edition, and now it's only useful for more quickly getting your troops into melee, which is the exact opposite of Hit and Fade... and where most of your troops will be slaughtered in any event.