Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm just starting into guard and have played my friend's guard army once and played against them only a few times. So my question is this- are infantry platoons simply the lousy unit  you take the minimum amount of  in order to get to the good ones (i.e armoured fist squads) or can they they be effective themselves?

Also, are conscript platoons effective or just a nearly useless way to fill a troops choice cheaply?

Junior Officer with Power Weapon & Bolt Pistol
9 Guardsmen & 1 Sergeant; 1 Grenade Launcher
9 Guardsmen & 1 Sergeant; 1 Grenade Launcher

How does that suck for 182 points? You can fire 20 Las Rifles at 24 inches, 2 Krak or Frag Grenades at 36 inches? All for only 182 points, and that only cost you 45$ dollars if you buy at full retail?

How does that suck for 182 points?

Because they include grenade launchers, of course!

To answer the original question, infantry platoons are the backbone of your force. You get a heavy weapon and special weapon with 8 ablative wounds. On top of that, they're dirt cheap. That's great. You get a whole mess of them, take tons of AP2 with all those bullet catchers, and then round out the force with some Russes and perhaps some Hellhounds and/or Rough Riders.

Of course, any real guard commander around these parts could really show you the ropes for the IG.

Bigchris1313 is definitely on the right track. The standard infantry platoon is the backbone of the IG... Tanks, veterans, and rough riders really are there to round out the infantry's firepower.

The command squad of an infantry platoon can be either a half-size infantry squad or it can be a special weapon death squad. The standard infantry squad's heavy and special weapons are devastaing when used as part of a mass fire by several squads. Think about the quantity of firepower that platoons can really laydown!

Look at the recent post "IG Commandments" by Flagg07 in Tactics for some dos and don'ts.

I agree.

The key abilities of IG Infantry Squads is durability and firepower. They're hard to beat for that and fairly inexpensive too.

Yup. Strength in numbers. I bought two Cadian Battleforces and an HQ box to start with. Someone gave me a blister of two lieutenants too. This has given me two platoons and two Russes, plus command HQ with Fire Support team and a Sentinel kitbashed from bitz in the box. I added a veterans squad with missile launcher, two flamers and a meltagun (converted from some Necromunda gangers and a spare metal jungle fighter that I had kicking around), and it's shaping up to be a great army. The weight of firepower usually compensates for the general low strength and BS, and two Russes in crossfire is davastating... just don't spread yourself too thin or the enemy will be all over you!

I appreciate the advice and skimmed over the IG commandments article, but am also concerned with the other part of my question; how many squads should i take in an infantry platoon and are conscripts ever effective?

Well, considering you haven't listed how many points you play, it's impossible to tell you how many.

Your platoons are your key. Besides the fact, you can't have more of any troops choice then you have Platoons....

It also depend on your Doctrine choices. Obviously Mech will have less. More specifics will help the community give you an answer.

Sorry.
I guess the size of games I play is usually about 2000 (although i dont have anywhere near that much yet).

As far as doctrines, I haven't seriously considered using any 1 set on a regular basis although I'm sure I'll experiment.

I guess I could see conscripts being good w/ independent commisars, although who he would cap if they failed a leadership?

Posted By citadel97501 on 02/27/2006 12:58 AM
Junior Officer with Power Weapon & Bolt Pistol
9 Guardsmen & 1 Sergeant; 1 Grenade Launcher
9 Guardsmen & 1 Sergeant; 1 Grenade Launcher

How does that suck for 182 points? You can fire 20 Las Rifles at 24 inches, 2 Krak or Frag Grenades at 36 inches? All for only 182 points, and that only cost you 45$ dollars if you buy at full retail?

JO needs 4 more models for his retinue, so you have to buy an extra box of troops. GL's only go 24" max. The GL's replace one of the Las rifles in each squad, so only 18 from the two squads but you forgot the JO's retinue.

You should have:

Jo PW and BP

4 Guardsmen with lasguns as his retinue

10 Guardsmen

Lasguns x9, GL x9

10 Guardsmen

Lasguns x9, GL x9

 

That is 22 lasgun shots + 2 GL shots at 24", 1 or 2 BP, 44 lasgun shots and 2 GL shots at 12". I think 182 points is correct though. This is also a poor setup unless you planon moving every single round. adding in a Heavy to each of the three squads gives you 9 HB shots per round that can be kept to the last casualty. HB's will do more damage than the lasguns but you will have to remain stationary. Lasguns are good for tacking a few extra wounds on a light armor horde, maybe one extra wound on a heavy armored troop.

The power weapon is pretty much a waste of points, since he fights seprate from his retinue (IC) at initiative 3 he will probably die before he wounds a normal opponent. A bolter is the same cost as the BP and would let him shoot at range if they stay still.

Posted By Gothicfuture on 03/08/2006 3:15 AM

I guess I could see conscripts being good w/ independent commisars, although who he would cap if they failed a leadership?

The PDF FAQ on the website answers this, I think he just offs someone in the conscript platoon once then takes over.

In response to the OP conscripts should be good for mobbing on things or to soak fire by being the closest unit. Their firing is pretty poor at BS 2 but give em a couple of flamers and they can rock some grots.

Are you sure he only does it once? I've been playing it that he executes someone each time they fail a morale check. That's what it seemed like the FAQ was saying to me anyways. So like in a normal squad the sarge would take it first. Then if they fail another test using the commissar's Ld he would just execute any other model. In a squad that doesn't even have a designated leader he would just execute any other model to start with and go from there. Since he is an independant character the squad would be using his Ld 10 from the moment he joins it.

I second Glaive. But who cares about four point dudes?

Nobody cares about them!  Poor guys!  But, they make a great tarpit for terminators or death company or something else that doesn't want to waste 3 or more turns locked with them. Without the commissar the unit will lose it's first turn of combat against one of these units, fail it's morale check and the 30 or so conscripts will be swept away without doing much during the game. At least, that's been my experience.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 03/08/2006 9:30 AM
Are you sure he only does it once? I've been playing it that he executes someone each time they fail a morale check. That's what it seemed like the FAQ was saying to me anyways. So like in a normal squad the sarge would take it first. Then if they fail another test using the commissar's Ld he would just execute any other model. In a squad that doesn't even have a designated leader he would just execute any other model to start with and go from there. Since he is an independant character the squad would be using his Ld 10 from the moment he joins it.

Since the Commisar takes control of the squad after he executes as per summary execution then it would only happen once. The FAQ just says that you choose a model to remove that is basically a representation of him killing the squad's leader. Since a Constript squad is basically a big mob he only has to do this once. This also means that he only confers a +1 to their leadership until he executes someone.

The IG FAQ states:

If a Commissar is with a unit that does not have an officer or Sergeant leading it, the SUmmary Execution rule means the unit will take one casualty before it passes its Morale test.

The Commissar does not take control of the squad, the next time they test it would be at LD +1 (for Commissar bonus) and they would lose another model if they failed. In the same way a squad that original has a Sergeant that fails a test loses the Sergeant model, then for each subsequent failed test you would remove a trooper model before they pass the test.

Posted By SuperJohn on 03/08/2006 11:59 AM
The IG FAQ states:

If a Commissar is with a unit that does not have an officer or Sergeant leading it, the SUmmary Execution rule means the unit will take one casualty before it passes its Morale test.

The Commissar does not take control of the squad, the next time they test it would be at LD +1 (for Commissar bonus) and they would lose another model if they failed. In the same way a squad that original has a Sergeant that fails a test loses the Sergeant model, then for each subsequent failed test you would remove a trooper model before they pass the test.

Could you quote the part of the Summary Execution rule where he executes multiple squad members? My recollection is that he executes thesquad leader, then takes control of the squad, he doesn't simply execute someone every time a leadership roll is failed. The clarification in the FAQ is because a conscript squad doesn't have an leader to execute.

I don't think the FAQ only refers to conscript squads or ogryn, or ratlings or whatever.  I think it refers to ANY squad that doesn't have a living officer or sergeant in it.

The conscript squad also doesn't have a leader to confer the +1 Ld to. So, the two ways to play the conscripts with ind commissar would be:

1. The squad has Ld 5 even though there is an independant character attached to them with Ld 10. Then, when they fail their first morale check he executes one of them and takes command of the squad.

2. The squad has Ld 10 because they have been joined by an independant character that has Ld 10. Then, when they fail their first morale check he executes one of them and retains command of the squad.

I think the rules can be interpreted multiple ways here since the IG codex obviously contradicts the BGB when it comes to who has the highest Ld as opposed to who is leading the squad. Here is what I believe though:

All advisors will NOT lead a squad that has an officer or a sergeant alive in it. An independant commissar will NOT lead a squad that has an officer or a sergeant alive in it. An independant commissar will immediately lead a squad that he attaches to if it does not have an officer or sergeant alive in it. Any commissar will execute the officer or sergeant leading the squad first before then taking command of the squad. Then, if the unit fails another morale test (using his) he will execute another squad member.

As I said the rules can be read to multiple interpretations, but my way is supported by the rules.

Infantry squads are phenomenal; I'd go so far as to say they're one of the best troops choices in the game.

However, it is mandatory that your infantry squads have heavy weapons. Special weapons are good too, but the strength of the IG is the fact that they can take more heavy weapons than any other army in the game - a lot more.

One thing to consider is whether or not to buy an additional platoon (command squad + two infantry squads) or just more infantry squads. Recall that you can have up to four additional infantry squads for each platoon; so a basic IG army with the minimum of two slots on the FOG can have up to 12 (!!!) infantry squads. Personally in V4 I think the command squad is not so good - it's vulnerable to being shot to hell so it's useless as a heavy weapon platform; which basically relegates it to either suicide squad (4x melta or plasma) or counter assault (4x flamers). Personally I don't think you need more than two.

Conscripts were the MVP of the Guard codex in V3 - a giant screen that could tarpit assaults for forever. In V4 that's not so much true - sweeping advance means it's very likely that a single squad of assault marines will send your conscripts packing forever. So I'd leave them at home.

I think a healthy start to a Guard army would be something along the lines of:

JO w/Honorifica + Iron Discipline
Vet w/Standard
3 Lasgunners

1 H-Vet Sergeant w/Bolter
4 H-Vets w/3Meltaguns

JO w/ID
2 Flamers
2 Lasgunners

Sergeant + 1 Flamer + 1 Heavy Bolter + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Flamer + 1 Heavy Bolter + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Plasma Gun + 1 Lascannon + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Plasma Gun + 1 Lascannon + 7 Lasgunners

JO w/ID
2 Flamers
2 Lasgunners

Sergeant + 1 Flamer + 1 Heavy Bolter + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Flamer + 1 Heavy Bolter + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Plasma Gun + 1 Lascannon + 7 Lasgunners
Sergeant + 1 Plasma Gun + 1 Lascannon + 7 Lasgunners

Russ w/Hull HB + Extra Armour
Russ w/Hull HB + Extra Armour

1255 points. 95 men, 2 tanks, 4 Lascannons, 3 Meltaguns, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 HBs, 8 Flamers.

BYE

HBMC I agree with you a whole lot of times, but one thing I would never recommend to anyone would be to put a flamer in a line squad. I would have him put a GRENADE LAUNCHER in first, and I would never recommend that either. Putting a flamer in there, that would only shoot once, maybe, if you were lucky and your opponent was stupid. I would almost say put nothing in the heavy bolter squads, and save yourself 24 points. Hey go all out, use the points to put heavy bolter Sponsons On the Russes! You have a better shot of using them in a game than the flamers.

foil: the discussion on HB/flamer squads was done a few months back. I think yakface was the one who mentioned it in some other thread - search his posts for it.

Suffice to say that yeah, the flamer only gets to go once but who cares - it only costs 6 points.

HBMC that's a pretty good beginners list - gives you a pretty good taste of what the guard are best at and lets you go in a few different drections with your other 250-600 points.

Thanks for the advice everyone. especially HBMC's sample list. I found it ironic when I realized that a JO with Honorifca is actually 5 points cheaper than a HSO.

On the subject of flamers, i think I'll reserve them for command "death squads" in a chimera. I can see them as bieng a fun surprise for horde armies.

"I would have him put a GRENADE LAUNCHER in first, and I would never recommend that either. Putting a flamer in there, that would only shoot once, maybe, if you were lucky and your opponent was stupid."

HB/Flamer squads are cannon fodder. They fire their HBs, catch bullets, and swarm into HTH when need be. The flamers are there for an extra couple of kills before they charge to their deaths. 2 more points for a GL? Might as well make it 4 points more and give them Plasmas.

BYE

Agreed, the only special I would ever put in a line squad would be a plasma gun. But I would tell someone to save the 6 points on the flamer in a heavy weapon squad. Run, the math against MEQ's

MEQ standing 9 -> 12 inches away Lets say flamer heavy bolter squad

1)Squad stays put and rapid fires, heavy bolter barks, flamer out of range
.5 + .89 = 1.4 dead meq's

2)Squad moves foward 6 inches and lets say catches 4 marines with the flamer

.666 + .89 = 1.6 dead meq's

So your squad is foward and farther away from your lines, and that is a good thing for when he consolodates. Point wise it does not pan out .2 marines worth of difference over staying still. But it does incourage the guard player to play like he should. I stand corrected, flamers do have their place in line squads after all, even against marines. Personally though I am sticking with all plasma in the line squads. Even with the heavy bolter. They can still advance up to the marines when they get in charge range, double tap, and block movement and charges. Plus it kills even more marines than the flamer. The only two armies I can think of that would encourage the use of a flamer would be vs orks and eldar.