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We could invade them with robots!

I hear Decepticons will work cheap for Energon. I'm just saying its an option...

Energon cubes are hard to get though. That's up there with depleted uranium.

It's surprising this is still going on when the answer should have been obvious. Suck it up local protesters. Religions cannot be restricted unless they violate some other law in their practice. Blowing up a building wasn't the fault of Islam, just of a bunch of angry jihadist carzy people who were probably shocked when they woke up in hell instead of surrounded by 77 virgins. Or maybe just pointlessly, stupidly, dead. Good riddance.

I gotta say I'm proud of everybody on either side of the arguement here because we have been discussing this for weeks while the news is only just picking up on it. Make's me feel smart or something talking to you guys. derr.

On a serious note, there are lots of people on here that are clearly smart.

I think wargaming might be linked to it personally.. all my more book smart chums in the marines where the only ones who showed any interest in this type of hobby, and people who like warhams generally like reading novels and such too right, and reading is fundamental, which many people dont do much of in this day and age.

Oh sorry, i meant "people that are clearly smart-arse"

Guitardian wrote:Energon cubes are hard to get though. That's up there with depleted uranium.

No way. You load up energon with good old Saudi sweet crude.

I got a better idea. Lets take a world map and just throw a big splat of pizza right at the middle of it. We get Russia, China, N Korea, Iran, Iraq, a bit of Turkey (sorry turkey) all in one splat...

Maybe that's not such a good idea, but hey it wipes the slate clean, and we can do it. This way we don't have to worry about who funds who and who has god talking in their head telling them what to blow up next. Sorry Israel, you gotta go too. You argued one too many times with the parent that essentially gave you the roof you live under.

Then we can all go back to our nice, secular lives un-attacked by religious lunatics and uncaring about who is communist or not.

Obviously this is sarcastic and not a real-world-fix, any more than Frazz with his energon cubes. The only fix would be to tell the thin-skinned new yorkers who protest that, for the sake of the WORLD, not just their stupid "Yo I'm From New York" bullshite local bitchy session. I have lived there, and everyone living there has that "I', tough I'm from New York, yo!" kind of attitude. Even the photographers assistants and office gophers and wanna-be models and movie extras... they all think they are so tough and capable of dealing with life because they are New Yorkers.

That's what makes them act like jackasses. Okay then, be tough. Talk the talk, walk the walk, or be a whiney b!tch at the expense of everyone else in the WORLD's concern ("wait, the world means like over in queens or brooklyn right?") that making a shitstorm about this stupid mosque issue will lead to.

Justifiable anger I can understand, but when a local misdirected yet understandable outrage threatens our (as a Nation and beyond) way we are percieved on a world-sized scale, I think they should just tough it up, so as to put things off of religious bitching and back to international relations.

Wait, are you telling me there's not more than meets the eye?

Yeah... sorry Frazz. There isn't. I hate to be the guy that told a kid that santa claus is actually their parent, and doesn't come down a chimmeny either. But someone's got to do it.

Which brings me back to the topic. This is a fundamentaly (not fundamentalist) ridiculous arguement they are all making over, whether to have this thing or not to have it. I really couldn't care less if there's a mosque or a starbucks or a hot topic store there. What I care about is the message that is sent by the supposed 'controversy' (ooooh!) surrounding it, and the larger effect it could have on our relations with our Islamic brothers out in the Arab world. Whether or not they build it, just the fight itself over whether or not it should even be an issue sends a poor message.

mattyrm wrote:"good plan"?

I think you lot need to read up a few posts, I said we owe them one ( we do) not "let's invade them"

I can't reply in full on my phone, but after invading both Iraq and ganners then going back for seconds I'm no way ignorant of who is assisting our enemies or the high casualties that another long ground war would involve (well, not so much the initial surge cos were kinda bad ass but hugely in the occupation)

I'd love to smack the Iranians, but I'm aware were in no position to do so. Please dont take me for a flag waving idiot who thinks we can march to war with no ramifications. I may not give a gak about Iranians, but I care a lot about British and American soldiers.

We could invade them with robots!

Get right on it us department of defence, you guys have a better defence budget than us.

Still not too sure what we 'owe' them for to be honest.

Yes they supplied components and equipment, so did half the Middle East in one form or another, especially if you consider human volunteers as supporting a cause.

Some would also say that perhaps the Iranians feel the same as you do and are getting their own back for the support old Saddam got from the West during the Iran-Iraq War (and yes, I know the US funded the Iranian war effort too via Israel but not too the same extent). They have long memories, especially when you consider that most of those in power were in command positions during the war. Perhaps there was a hint of 'payback' in it for them. The US will never be considered anything but the 'Great Satan' by the Iranian political powers due to their support of the Shah and subsequent backing of Iraq. Whether that sense of hatred extends down to the common people of Iran is open to debate. Certainly none of my Iraqi or Iranian colleagues seem to have anything like the vitriol that spews forth from the Iranian propaganda machine.

The problem with them is that they are a different kettle of fish to Iraq to tackle militarily, if that was an option (which as you say is not).

I dont place much value on their air assets, especially their fixed wing capability which would last all of two minutes in a shooting war, but they performed well with rotary air attacks during previous wars and have still concentrated on that. Whether they could get in the air with Coalition AA cover and air power is unlikely though.

Its on the ground that things are different with Iraq. The military, though subservient to the regime is highly motivated when having to fight on its homeland. While its resilience when fighting outside its borders is open to debate, it tends to fight hard when on home turf. Then you have the Pasdaran and the Basjei, both hardline regime paramilitaries, with the Pasdaran in reality a second army and both have their existence linked to the survival of the regime.

What is a further difference, and the hardest to overcome is the Iranian belief in their country and the santicty of their borders. Before Saddam invaded the revolution was on shaky foundations. Its wholesale slaughter of military personnel and government officials wavered peoples belief in the ideals but Saddams invasion galvanised the country to fight against the invader. Most Iranian veterans when asked what they were fighting for will tell you it was to save Iran from the invader, not to save the revolution despite what the government propaganda machine trotted out.

So while we may once again blow up their planes/tanks/APCs we would face a much more hardened and committed fightback with people willing to sacrifice themselves regardless. Casualties would be high on both sides and it would lead to a bloodbath. They also have weapons capable of dealing with our most advanced weapons systems, they too have the Vampir and that can penetrate both the Chally and the M1.

It would be a mess that is just not worth getting into, and thankfully everyone realises that. The best we can hope for is that the Iranian people opt for regime change and bring it about themselves, but with such a massive paramilitary network behind the regime, not to mention state control of the media, it seems unlikely.

Guitardian wrote:Yeah... sorry Frazz. There isn't. I hate to be the guy that told a kid that santa claus is actually their parent, and doesn't come down a chimmeny either. But someone's got to do it.

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.


My only comment to the actual subject.
-Legal right to be there, if meets the local codes permitting etc.
-However, they should be sensitive to the feelings of the locals and move it back a few blocks.

Problem / solution bada bing. If any side won't work in that context then there's mal intent there.

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Yeah... sorry Frazz. There isn't. I hate to be the guy that told a kid that santa claus is actually their parent, and doesn't come down a chimmeny either. But someone's got to do it.

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

Somehow I knew. I've always known, really. Everything makes sense now.

Could be worse, your country could have a boat full of terrorists just float to your shore and demand refugee status, which includes monthly paycheques greater then what you give veterans.

Ravenous D wrote:Could be worse, your country could have a boat full of terrorists just float to your shore and demand refugee status, which includes monthly paycheques greater then what you give veterans.

Except outside the fantasies of Paul Froom and Co. that isn't true?

We don't know what's going on in Sri Lanka so we really can't say what they are running from. The Sri Lankan government has limited western investigation of the Tamil held areas. Trust the refugee system to sort it out. The last thing I want in my lifetime is another SS St. Loius.

Frazzled wrote:

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

.

*obligatory joke about only gets to come once per year*

Man, got that one in use before the end of August ! It's true, it really does start earlier every year.

*hurriedly decks things with Holly*

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

.

*obligatory joke about only gets to come once per year*

Man, got that one in use before the end of August ! It's true, it really does start earlier every year.

*hurriedly decks things with Holly*

Selfridges opened their Christmas department a couple of weeks ago.

Back on topic, there already is a mosque near ground zero.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/16/14199/5343

There are also Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples near Pearl Harbour, and there are Christian churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As no-one is bothered about these, it makes the storm about the proposed new mosque look like it is being whipped up out of hate and prejudice.

As no-one is bothered about these, it makes the storm about the proposed new mosque look like it is being whipped up out of hate and prejudice.

Thats because it is!

Kilkrazy wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

.

*obligatory joke about only gets to come once per year*

Man, got that one in use before the end of August ! It's true, it really does start earlier every year.

*hurriedly decks things with Holly*

Selfridges opened their Christmas department a couple of weeks ago.

Back on topic, there already is a mosque near ground zero.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/16/14199/5343

There are also Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples near Pearl Harbour, and there are Christian churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As no-one is bothered about these, it makes the storm about the proposed new mosque look like it is being whipped up out of hate and prejudice.

The difference is, of course, that the 9/11 murderers did so in the name of their religion.

efarrer wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Could be worse, your country could have a boat full of terrorists just float to your shore and demand refugee status, which includes monthly paycheques greater then what you give veterans.

Except outside the fantasies of Paul Froom and Co. that isn't true?

We don't know what's going on in Sri Lanka so we really can't say what they are running from. The Sri Lankan government has limited western investigation of the Tamil held areas. Trust the refugee system to sort it out. The last thing I want in my lifetime is another SS St. Loius.

Its a little different then the SS St Louis, for it to be the same it would a boat full of nazis asking for refuge.

Most of the occupants on the ship are from the tamil tigers group, known well for using child soldiers and suicide bombers. Then there's what their supporters did here in toronto last year when they blocked major roads and when the police showed up they put children in front of them so they wouldnt be stormed or tear gased.

So sorry to say but 'em, sink the ship.

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

.

*obligatory joke about only gets to come once per year*

Man, got that one in use before the end of August ! It's true, it really does start earlier every year.

*hurriedly decks things with Holly*

Selfridges opened their Christmas department a couple of weeks ago.

Back on topic, there already is a mosque near ground zero.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/16/14199/5343

There are also Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples near Pearl Harbour, and there are Christian churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As no-one is bothered about these, it makes the storm about the proposed new mosque look like it is being whipped up out of hate and prejudice.

The difference is, of course, that the 9/11 murderers did so in the name of their religion.

Yeah, 9/11 has that. But the christian church by nagasaki has a history of hundreds of thousands of deaths, which has 9/11 pretty soundly beat and it could be argued that shinto was a part of the japanese cultural identity as well as it's religion pre WW2 and that the actions taken in the emperors name were inherently taken in the name of the religion.

Either way, it still sounds like whipped up hate and prejudice.

Ravenous D wrote:

Its a little different then the SS St Louis, for it to be the same it would a boat full of nazis asking for refuge.

Most of the occupants on the ship are from the tamil tigers group, known well for using child soldiers and suicide bombers. Then there's what their supporters did here in toronto last year when they blocked major roads and when the police showed up they put children in front of them so they wouldnt be stormed or tear gased.
So sorry to say but 'em, sink the ship.

.

Really? That is odd because I have not heard of a single member of the passengers or crew actually being Tigers. Tamils yes, that's an ethnic group of which there have been reports of murders by the state of Sri Lanka.

If any are proven to be members of the Tamil Tigers then let them be tried as such. Otherwise... my point stands. Let the refugee board here the case and then follow the appropriate procedures, up to an including their return. Otherwise we are no better then we were in the 1930s.

Mmmm...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998

Ravenous D wrote:

Its a little different then the SS St Louis, for it to be the same it would a boat full of nazis asking for refuge.

Most of the occupants on the ship are from the tamil tigers group, known well for using child soldiers and suicide bombers. Then there's what their supporters did here in toronto last year when they blocked major roads and when the police showed up they put children in front of them so they wouldnt be stormed or tear gased.

So sorry to say but 'em, sink the ship.

Tamil Tigers use Child Soldiers? The things you learn on the interweb. Also, what the hell is most supposed to mean? How can you tell the difference between Sri Lankan civilians and non-civilians?

I think it has something to do with who is holding a gun and shooting it at you.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Well now I know you're off. There is a Santa. I'm freaking Santa baby.

.

*obligatory joke about only gets to come once per year*

Man, got that one in use before the end of August ! It's true, it really does start earlier every year.

*hurriedly decks things with Holly*

Selfridges opened their Christmas department a couple of weeks ago.

Back on topic, there already is a mosque near ground zero.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/16/14199/5343

There are also Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples near Pearl Harbour, and there are Christian churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As no-one is bothered about these, it makes the storm about the proposed new mosque look like it is being whipped up out of hate and prejudice.

The difference is, of course, that the 9/11 murderers did so in the name of their religion.

Yeah, 9/11 has that. But the christian church by nagasaki has a history of hundreds of thousands of deaths, which has 9/11 pretty soundly beat and it could be argued that shinto was a part of the japanese cultural identity as well as it's religion pre WW2 and that the actions taken in the emperors name were inherently taken in the name of the religion.

Either way, it still sounds like whipped up hate and prejudice.

One thing to remember about the church in Nagasaki, it had been there and was blown up by the blast.

The building in Manhattan is an old warehouse, surrounded by buildings that have been declared historical locations. This exact building had landing gear from one of the planes crash into it. It's located in a commercial district with no residential area around it. I wish I could say with 100% conviction that this is for peace, but its not.

Stormrider wrote:
The building in Manhattan is an old warehouse, surrounded by buildings that have been declared historical locations. This exact building had landing gear from one of the planes crash into it. It's located in a commercial district with no residential area around it.

I don't know how much experience you have with urban religious buildings, or religious buildings in general, but they pop up everywhere from strip malls to office buildings. Hell, there's a Church of God a block away from Daley Plaza, and there isn't an ounce of residential in line of site.

Stormrider wrote: I wish I could say with 100% conviction that this is for peace, but its not.

You know that its not, or you can't say with 100% conviction that its not?

Saying it is "surrounded by buildings that have been declared historical landmarks" is a bit duplicitous. There are really no more in the area than any other area (something tells me the Burlington Coat Factory next door isn't a historical monument). The building specifically has been not chosen as a historical location so it doesn't really matter anyway. I imagine there are some fast food restaurants nearby as well that got hit with shrapnel, it was a rather large area of effect. Is the McDonald's 3 blocks away sacrosanct now?

Religious buildings have never had the residential only limit so that doesn't really mean much either.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Tamil Tigers use Child Soldiers? The things you learn on the interweb. Also, what the hell is most supposed to mean? How can you tell the difference between Sri Lankan civilians and non-civilians?

Thats why the Tamil Tigers are classified as a terrorist group by the UN, use of child soldiers is what they are known for. Thats common knowledge, nothing to do with the internet. Glad to see you didnt defend the sucide bombing though,

As for my other comment, many of the occupants are suspected to be tamil tigers. Without papers or any form of identifying themselves for all we know Mohammed Amir, is a mad arab bomber while Mohammad Amir is a nice bread maker. Without knowing you have three options, 1) sink the boat 2) Put them in lock down forever, 3) release them into refugee status, pay them monthly and hope they dont start

Considering what their followers did on the Gardiner Express Way a few months back they have zero sympathy from me.

The whole "won't rule out taking money from SA or Iran" thing is a bit confused.

Now, first off, SA is a ridiculous, backwards, awful Wahabbi state and former home of Osama bin Laden. So, in some respect associating with it is indeed shady That said, American foreign policy is to pretend that SA is TOTALLY sweet, and to pal around with them. They donate to all manner of American projects like Presidential Libraries, and whatever else they feel will endear them to American leadership. So, on some level, SA is our "friend."

Obviously Iran is not our "friend" at all...

So, the headline is sorta like saying "dude won't rule out taking money from Walmart or Satan." Nobody is going to rule out getting money from Walmart, and while some think it's evil, it's not so evil that taking money from it should upset an American. And then, obviously, Satan is Satan.

Also, what is "Iran" or "SA?" Is it the government there, or is it a resident? Iran has a considerable progressive dissident community that probably view the US favorably, and would consider this mosque the sort of thing that might improve US-Islamic relations, and thus might be a very direct contributor to progress in Iran, an Islamic Republic.

I believe you've hit on the reason that the spokesman refused to comment. If he outright said no, and it was later discovered that Saudi Arabians and Iranians did in fact fund the project, the spokesman and, by extension the project, are painted as an insidious element. If the spokesman says yes, then the assent will no doubt be twisted. Refusing to comment at the very least allows for a degree of ignorance.

Ravenous D wrote:

Thats why the Tamil Tigers are classified as a terrorist group by the UN, use of child soldiers is what they are known for. Thats common knowledge, nothing to do with the internet. Glad to see you didnt defend the sucide bombing though,

I'm no expert on the extensive global use of Child Soldiers, but Tamil Tigers were a new one to me.

As for my other comment, many of the occupants are suspected to be tamil tigers. Without papers or any form of identifying themselves for all we know Mohammed Amir, is a mad arab bomber while Mohammad Amir is a nice bread maker. Without knowing you have three options, 1) sink the boat 2) Put them in lock down forever, 3) release them into refugee status, pay them monthly and hope they dont start

Considering what their followers did on the Gardiner Express Way a few months back they have zero sympathy from me.

So...you have to assume that every boat from Sri Lanka must be Tamil Tiger Terrorists (yay alliteration) and should be sunk? Wohoo. I hear this arguement a lot over here due to the constant paronoia concerning 'Boat People', and I'm surprised becuase you're a Canadian. I mean...how did Sri Lankans (Lankins?) get a boat chartered for Canada without any officiality?