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liturgies of blood wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Your ideas on how this power should work are to different for a consensus and RAI is to unclear to make the call by and depending on your ideology you will feel more or less rules are broken one way or the other. I've looked at this for many pages and there have been some good points all around and in the end, with an FAQ, it may turn into a beautiful flower but for now it remains a steaming pile of ...umm ...compost. You can keep flinging it around if you want but I'm done here ...going to take a shower now

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You're just trolling nos. Simple as.

Yes, because asking you to provide a rule in a rules forum is trolling.

Clearly.

liturgies of blood wrote:I've not made up two rules, I've ignored one line in the assault rules as there is no profile and looked at more basic rules. That isn't making up a rule, it's breaking 1.

No, I have explained how you have made up two rules

You have made up a profile. Created rule number 1
You have made up a link between roll to-hit and roll 3D6 which does not exist in the rules

liturgies of blood wrote: You're making up rules that shooting attacks don't require a successful to hit roll unless otherwise stated.

Wrong. I have explained the exact statement I am making 3 or 4 times now, so your continued misrepresentation of my opinion on the matter is quite frankly appalling.

What I have said, a number of times now, is that shooting weapons have an explicit requirement to successfully roll to-hit before they are allowed to roll to-wound - which is 100% true and accurate. You have been unable to counter this statement, backed up by the rules statement on page 14 that you conveniently ignore, as it destroys your arguments validity.

Rolling to-wound is a defined process - for a start it compares S vs T. Please, in this shooting attack find the comparison between S and T

Page and paragraph. Should be easy, given the number of times you have asserted this.

Now, we both know that is impossible - as there is no weapon profile, no S vs T comparison is possible. Instead we have a different effect, which CAN cause wounds, however this is not the same thing as a to-wound roll. Therefore making an assertion that this is equivalent, a replacement, etc, requires a rule to back up that assertion. a rule you refuse to provide

liturgies of blood wrote: You've refused to engage with any of the substantive, prefering to dance around the issue and ignore page 69. You just erect straw man and false requirements.

Resolving the power as above means what?

Another fallacy here. No strawman. No dancing around.

Resolving the power means rolling 3D6 and taking off the leadership. There is no other possible meaning. You have totally, 100% made up a requirement that does not exist in the actual, written rules and have refused to back it up. At any point

Find a rule linking to-hit and 3D6 - one actually written in the rulebook, and not something you made up - and I will happily concede

Can I get the same agrement from you?

There is no such thing as a shooting weapon, firstly.

Seconldy, the to wound mechanic is replaced in this power, it tells you how to generate wounds, if you cannot see that then there is no point talking anymore.

I don't have to deal with page 14 as there is nothing there that impacts on the resolution of A) this shooting attack as it's not got a S profile similar to how you resolve other shooting attacks that have an effect such as rad grenades, B) there is a clear method of wound generation that diverges from the normal process.
So instead of rolling To Wound, I'm rolling 3D6-Ld to generate wounds. I see this as a false standard I need to meet.

Why does this power not have the same restrictions placed on it as other PSAs that circumvent the normal shooting process?

I did find a link between roll To Hit and resolution on pg 69 a more specific section than pg68 that deals with witchfire powers. You don't accept it because "it doesn't say that" in your opinion.
I cannot find a line that links 3d6 and resolution as the brb wasn't written to service this one power. Just one that links resolution and to hit and names PSAs shooting attacks.

Would you agree to disagree or do you want to keep going around?

And on a side note, I find the constant "do as I say or conceed" line rather ivory tower. You keep insulting people in your posts with how it reads and when they are goaded and snap back you threaten mods. Please cut it out, I've responded in kind to you as I find your tone insulting in this thread.

The "Find the rule or concede" is spot on, if you show rules and the other side does not, then if they can not find rules to back their position they must concede. that is just debate basics.

Do you have any rules that tell us how many dice we need to roll to hit with for PS? If not then...

DR, that is not what myself and nos are even talking about. Everyone has agreed that that is where the power breaks.

It's funny cos I've shown rules and the other side hasn't in this case.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
DR, that is not what myself and nos are even talking about.

Everyone has agreed that that is where the power breaks.

Not at all, it is proof that the power is not contingent on a roll to hit as it has no standard profile.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Not at all, it is proof that the power is not contingent on a roll to hit as it has no standard profile.

It's proof that there's a hole in the rules.

That is such an assertion and is completely baseless.

If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Well thats your RAI opinion.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Even with that interpretation the RAW does not work. Rules say you have to roll (whether it affected anything or not), but you cannot, because you don't know how many dice to roll. So to resolve the power you must do something you cannot do. The power cannot be resolved. We've been over this.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Well thats your RAI opinion.

With actual rules to back my position, as nothing in the rules links the roll to hit and the effects of the Psychic power.

 Crimson wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Even with that interpretation the RAW does not work. Rules say you have to roll (whether it affected anything or not), but you cannot, because you don't know how many dice to roll. So to resolve the power you must do something you cannot do. The power cannot be resolved. We've been over this.

Well it really does not matter because the roll to hit is irrelevant. so weather you hit or miss, or even roll at all, the power works just fine.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Well it really does not matter because the roll to hit is irrelevant. so weather you hit or miss, or even roll at all, the power works just fine.

RAW is that you have to roll, you can't skip it. If you can't roll, you can't resolve.

RAW and RAI you have to roll.

it does NOT fall under one of the subtype PSAs that gets to ignore to hit roll.

There is no faq saying you can ignore the to hit roll, or continue the effect on a non successful to hit roll.

No one has bee able to present a RAW or RAI arguement that you can ignore the hit roll has it is stated plainly in RAW you must roll to hit, subtype PSAs have their own rules to follow and some of those have different rules on how to hit but the lowly primaris power, yes lowly as it its primaris power, pyshic shriek does not get to ignore that rule as it is not one of the subtypes, and has not been faqed to ignore the roll it its required to make, ie hit roll.

the arguement that it doesnt specifically tell you how many dice you get to roll does not null and void the to hit roll. As most people can figure out that you are given 0 permission to roll multiple dice...they can usually figure out how many dice to roll.

And yes as it stands you get precision shots with it until that is faqed,

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Well thats your RAI opinion.

With actual rules to back my position, as nothing in the rules links the roll to hit and the effects of the Psychic power.

 Crimson wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it had a profile we would know how many dice to roll to hit. This power does not so the roll to hit does not matter and the power will have effect regardless of the power hitting or not.

Even with that interpretation the RAW does not work. Rules say you have to roll (whether it affected anything or not), but you cannot, because you don't know how many dice to roll. So to resolve the power you must do something you cannot do. The power cannot be resolved. We've been over this.

Well it really does not matter because the roll to hit is irrelevant. so weather you hit or miss, or even roll at all, the power works just fine.

I'm am 100% okay with you saying that HYWPI is, you don't roll. However don't make it seem like RAI and RAW don't conflict hugely here.

If you were to stand and play someone at any tournament anywhere and say "Okay I roll to hit, I miss, now you must still take the test" You would be smacked down my the TO very quickly.

As I've said before to people in this forum.

As of page 1 we established we don't know how many dice to roll.

Nos/DR can not provide me with a rule however to skip the chain of events that says I MUST ROLL TO HIT. So at that point it is clearly a RAI debate. From there do as you will. NOS/DR argue that there isn't a rule saying if you

Wait for it


M I S S

with this roll of RAI dice (whatever you all decide to roll) that the ability still doesn't go off. You will not be able to prove them wrong from a RAW standpoint, don't try. However they both agree we don't know how many dice to roll. So they would want us to ignore that rule all together thus BREAKING the rules.

Not one side is right. Because in a debate, the moment the rules are broken by one side, that side is in turn losing said debate.



EDIT.....

I agree with NOS and DR from a RAW standpoint about the effect as I can't find a rule. Best I can find is a FAQ saying a specific power doesn't need to roll to hit for Blood Angels. If the effects of said powers don't need to roll to hit, why bother FAQ ? I dunno.....

Q: As
Blood Lance
is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll
To Hi t ? (p 63)
A: No.

Not sure I want to get in the middle of this but here goes anyway.

The rule for Psychic Shriek tells us that it is a witchfire power with a range of 12".

The witchfire rules state, "Manifesting witchfire counts as shooting an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)"

It is not otherwise noted so PS must be treated like an AW, which in turn means we must follow the rules for a shooting attack. So lets take it step by step following the shooting phase section in the BRB.

We can check the range for the shooting attack as Psychic Shriek's profile tells us it has a range of 12".

Next we roll to hit. From the BRB -
"To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each shot that is range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later."

This 'later' referred to here is the weapons section of the BRB under the sub-heading 'Number of Shots' which states - "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Since it is not noted anywhere that PS fires multiple shots, we can deduce that it only fires one shot as per the previous rule.

The reason there is no profile for PS is because it is not needed. We have the range, we know it is treated as an assault weapon and have to follow the rules for a shoooting attack, which tell us that unless otherwise stated we only get to fire one shot.

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Not sure I want to get in the middle of this but here goes anyway.

The rule for Psychic Shriek tells us that it is a witchfire power with a range of 12".

The witchfire rules state, "Manifesting witchfire counts as shooting an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)"

It is not otherwise noted so PS must be treated like an AW, which in turn means we must follow the rules for a shooting attack. So lets take it step by step following the shooting phase section in the BRB.

We can check the range for the shooting attack as Psychic Shriek's profile tells us it has a range of 12".

Next we roll to hit. From the BRB -
"To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each shot that is range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later."

This 'later' referred to here is the weapons section of the BRB under the sub-heading 'Number of Shots' which states - "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Since it is not noted anywhere that PS fires multiple shots, we can deduce that it only fires one shot as per the previous rule.

The reason there is no profile for PS is because it is not needed. We have the range, we know it is treated as an assault weapon and have to follow the rules for a shoooting attack, which tell us that unless otherwise stated we only get to fire one shot.

You are missing the more advanced rules for Assault Weapons on page 51. A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile. As has been pointed out the game breaks when you go to roll To Hit.

OK now tell me what part of the rules says PS doesn't go off if I miss?

This is the part that's most important, it is completely irrelevant to even roll as it merely stipulates that you target a unit. It is similar to search lights during NF IMO.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Not sure I want to get in the middle of this but here goes anyway.

The rule for Psychic Shriek tells us that it is a witchfire power with a range of 12".

The witchfire rules state, "Manifesting witchfire counts as shooting an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)"

It is not otherwise noted so PS must be treated like an AW, which in turn means we must follow the rules for a shooting attack. So lets take it step by step following the shooting phase section in the BRB.

We can check the range for the shooting attack as Psychic Shriek's profile tells us it has a range of 12".

Next we roll to hit. From the BRB -
"To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each shot that is range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later."

This 'later' referred to here is the weapons section of the BRB under the sub-heading 'Number of Shots' which states - "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Since it is not noted anywhere that PS fires multiple shots, we can deduce that it only fires one shot as per the previous rule.

The reason there is no profile for PS is because it is not needed. We have the range, we know it is treated as an assault weapon and have to follow the rules for a shoooting attack, which tell us that unless otherwise stated we only get to fire one shot.

You are missing the more advanced rules for Assault Weapons on page 51. A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile. As has been pointed out the game breaks when you go to roll To Hit.

No I haven't missed it. It states that ".. an assault weapon shoots the number of times on it's profile." Since we do not have a profile we must go back to what it say's about rolling to hit. " Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once." We can find no rule giving us multiple shots. So according to the BRB it is a single roll to hit.

 Unforgiven656 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Not sure I want to get in the middle of this but here goes anyway.

The rule for Psychic Shriek tells us that it is a witchfire power with a range of 12".

The witchfire rules state, "Manifesting witchfire counts as shooting an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)"

It is not otherwise noted so PS must be treated like an AW, which in turn means we must follow the rules for a shooting attack. So lets take it step by step following the shooting phase section in the BRB.

We can check the range for the shooting attack as Psychic Shriek's profile tells us it has a range of 12".

Next we roll to hit. From the BRB -
"To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each shot that is range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later."

This 'later' referred to here is the weapons section of the BRB under the sub-heading 'Number of Shots' which states - "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Since it is not noted anywhere that PS fires multiple shots, we can deduce that it only fires one shot as per the previous rule.

The reason there is no profile for PS is because it is not needed. We have the range, we know it is treated as an assault weapon and have to follow the rules for a shoooting attack, which tell us that unless otherwise stated we only get to fire one shot.

You are missing the more advanced rules for Assault Weapons on page 51. A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile. As has been pointed out the game breaks when you go to roll To Hit.

No I haven't missed it. It states that ".. an assault weapon shoots the number of times on it's profile." Since we do not have a profile we must go back to what it say's about rolling to hit. " Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once." We can find no rule giving us multiple shots. So according to the BRB it is a single roll to hit.

That is not true, the Default is not 1 unless otherwise stated.

Most weapons get one shot, but that is indicated on its profile, PS does not have a profile.

@unforgiven-Your making an illogical leap there. Saying most models have one shot =/= unless otherwise stated models have one shot by default.

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK now tell me what part of the rules says PS doesn't go off if I miss?

This is the part that's most important, it is completely irrelevant to even roll as it merely stipulates that you target a unit. It is similar to search lights during NF IMO.

If you're debating RAW please tell me how you got to this question. RAW we have no idea how many dice to roll, if you ask what happens if you MISS, let me slow it down..... M I S S then how can you RAW be there as you had no idea how many dice to roll? Did you break or make up rules?

Edit

My standpoint is this is clearly a RAI or HIWPI

Edit x 2

Damn you redid your whole post!

It's not illogical because it's backed up in the wepons section under number of shots. Again. " Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

We don't have a profile for PS, so it cannot be noted that it fires multiple shots. Ergo it fires one shot.

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
It's not illogical because it's backed up in the wepons section under number of shots. Again. " Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

We don't have a profile for PS, so it cannot be noted that it fires multiple shots. Ergo it fires one shot.

Then why do some weapons bother listing assault or heavy 1? By your reasoning it is completely pointless to mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormbreed wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK now tell me what part of the rules says PS doesn't go off if I miss?

This is the part that's most important, it is completely irrelevant to even roll as it merely stipulates that you target a unit. It is similar to search lights during NF IMO.

If you're debating RAW please tell me how you got to this question. RAW we have no idea how many dice to roll, if you ask what happens if you MISS, let me slow it down..... M I S S then how can you RAW be there as you had no idea how many dice to roll? Did you break or make up rules?

Edit

My standpoint is this is clearly a RAI or HIWPI

Edit x 2

Damn you redid your whole post!

I agree that RAW the game breaks, I have been following this whole debate from page one. I should staight I also think its now a RAI or HYWPI situation. I personally agree with nos that ignoring the roll to hit breaks the least rules, so is the lesser evil. Saying you need to roll to hit means you need to first make up a weapon profile that isn't provided, then make the leap that the 3d6-LD doesn't happen on a miss. And please stop "slowing it down" I can read it fine I just don't agree with your interpretation since MH, jaws and blood lance don't require to hit rolls and their effects take place, I am inclined to play it that way. Since no one is right I think we can close this thread since it will come down to how we each feel is th best way to play it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Not sure I want to get in the middle of this but here goes anyway.

The rule for Psychic Shriek tells us that it is a witchfire power with a range of 12".

The witchfire rules state, "Manifesting witchfire counts as shooting an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)"

It is not otherwise noted so PS must be treated like an AW, which in turn means we must follow the rules for a shooting attack. So lets take it step by step following the shooting phase section in the BRB.

We can check the range for the shooting attack as Psychic Shriek's profile tells us it has a range of 12".

Next we roll to hit. From the BRB -
"To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each shot that is range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later."

This 'later' referred to here is the weapons section of the BRB under the sub-heading 'Number of Shots' which states - "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Since it is not noted anywhere that PS fires multiple shots, we can deduce that it only fires one shot as per the previous rule.

The reason there is no profile for PS is because it is not needed. We have the range, we know it is treated as an assault weapon and have to follow the rules for a shoooting attack, which tell us that unless otherwise stated we only get to fire one shot.

You are missing the more advanced rules for Assault Weapons on page 51. A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile. As has been pointed out the game breaks when you go to roll To Hit.

No I haven't missed it. It states that ".. an assault weapon shoots the number of times on it's profile." Since we do not have a profile we must go back to what it say's about rolling to hit. " Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once." We can find no rule giving us multiple shots. So according to the BRB it is a single roll to hit.

That is not true, the Default is not 1 unless otherwise stated.

Most weapons get one shot, but that is indicated on its profile, PS does not have a profile.

Actually page 13 says most fire one, while page 50 says it will list it on it's profile if it has more than one. Ignoring the lack of a profile, the default is one because unless something tells you to roll more than 1 you only get 1 as per the basic shooting rules.

It has to list 1 to have 1 though, you are missing that point.

This is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't say without a profile the default is one. It simply tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots. PS doesn't have a profile. So we are left stranded.

The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
This is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't say without a profile the default is one. It simply tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots. PS doesn't have a profile. So we are left stranded.

Could you quote the rulebook on where it tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots?

The exact wording under number of shots is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.

Again, it never says this. It says on pg 13 most weapons, this doesn't mean all. On page 50 it says some weapons fire multiple shots, look to the profile (paraphrasing). It never says that you default to 1, ever, anywhere in the BRB.

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there.

The rules for Pistols tell you its an Assault 1 weapon. Rapid Fire weapons however, do not tell you how many shots in their profile.