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 Amishprn86 wrote:
It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units)

Who/what are you referring to?

 WeeDawgNYC wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units)

Who/what are you referring to?

Did you not read the last 3 posts? Haemoncului

I had a game today vs that same ork player. We had somewhat different lists only this time i went first. Knowing what he had i lanced his mega nobs to death (i learned from the DS'ing of ghazkull and mega nobs last game) and did some damage vs his dakkagun ork bikers. We only had a turn a piece but our rolling was pretty hot. I killed his unit of mega nobs and got first blood but he killed 2 units of scourge and half killed my ravager. I think the game would've been close had the store not closed within 45 mins of us starting the actual game. He also agreed it'd have been much closer.

I think if i got to do turn 2 i would have dissie'd his flash gitz to death. The flash gitz did a surprising amount of damage and got super lucky rolls as opposed to the depressingly abysmal lootas in that game. I also would've charged his dakka gun ork bikers with my full health ravager (which was out of LoS of most of his bikers). I told him about that after the game and he agreed it would've hurt him considerably since it'd prevent his dakka guns firing again if he wished to leave combat.

The mass of buildings also helped for LoS reasons and i think a map without much LoS blocking terrain is a death trap for dark eldar against enemy shooting.

Yes 8th is the LoS edition for sure.

So which themes seem to be the strongest?

Kabal themed
Wych Cult themed
Coven themed
Mix of all

Are there many benefits to sticking to one of those themes exclusively?

Strongest in what sense?

Kabal should be best at shooting
Wyches should be the fastest, and a scalpel melee army
Coven are the toughest with high damage melee but slower

We should in theory have shooting and melee, that is how we are balanced.

I think we know he means what's doing best right now and the answer to that is kabals by a lot.

Wyches, bloodbrides, hellions, reavers and such all suck with maybe exception to beasts. Well ok wyches might be ok if you have a raider or ravager take overwatch for them but then that means you can't turn 1 DS them with webway portal which is bad.

Covens have a nice hero in an army with bad heroes. Wracks seem ok, grotesques might be nice but the monsters just aren't good right now.

Mandrakes are supposed to be good but they're not really part of the covens or any group. Incubi might also be good but once again belong to no group. I might be wrong but i think scourge are part of the kabals and they're good with dark lances.

Generally i run scourge and ravagers with maybe a void raven. I also may run warriors.

I honestly thought he wasnt talking about currently (I wont go into why).

Its basically only Kabals, vehicles and Mandrakes right now. Some will use Scourges but Ravagers are mostly better.

DE can do easy Battalions due to kabals, some are not even giving them transports (I personally give Raiders), just taking more Ravagers/Flyers.

If there's a few slots you need you could always do minimum squad size if it's something cheap like infantry if you want to get the bigger FoC.

I'm still really hoping we get splinter racks back when we get our new book in a month or two. In old editions it was twin-linking splinter weapons. Everything in old editions that was twin linked is now twice as many shots. Basically half range splinter rifles would be 4 shots and half range splinter cannons would be 12 shots. Imagine two 5 man trueborn squads with 4 splinter cannons total giving 48 poisoned shots just with those 4 weapons alone. I'm actually thinking that's what they'll do but i don't want to fully commit to that idea yet so much as be prepared for it.

Heat lances do suck btw. I tried em some more and realized for its cost as a suicide unit it is way too expensive. The only boost heat lances and blasters have over dark lances is the fact they're assault weapons but the high strength, damage and range of dark lances just makes them so much better.

I'm still a bit unsure if i should try a good amount of incubi though. Incubi in small numbers don't do much anymore but in large numbers they could be ok-ish. Strength 4 and only damage 1 is depressing even with the good number of attacks. It'd be a good counter to all this alpha strike non-sense with marines or similar popping up.

I have used a unit of 5 incubi in a venom in a number of games, and they have failed to do anything in any game. So I see the point of the incubi issue.

lately my lists have comprised of 2 10-strong warrior squads each with both a blaster and dark lance in raiders with dark lances. a trueborn squad in a venom with 4 blasters and then sometimes I include a 20-strong squad of warriors on foot with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters.

I really feel like a glass cannon with this at the core of my lists. If I miss with my dark lances, I am basically screwed.

But what I have found to be particularly useful against certain armies is the Talos and Haemoncolus. He is reasonably fast and good in close combat . I just finished assembling 4 grotestques and a unit of wracks and am considering making the switch to more Coven units.

My unit of 20 hellions is fun to play with but sometimes does absolutely nothing but absorb firepower by dying while my dark lances get to shoot.

I know this question might be a bit 'hard' since the Codex hasnt been released yet but is getting the start collecting box for Dark Eldar the best way to start an army?

I'm hearing how the Reavers are bad ATM but they just... look so cool!

My friend wanted to do them so I want to suggest him a good start.

Thank you!

 Icculus wrote:
So which themes seem to be the strongest?

Kabal themed
Wych Cult themed
Coven themed
Mix of all

Are there many benefits to sticking to one of those themes exclusively?

This is actually my biggest fear of the codex drop, having to choose to get any army wide special rule, DE are hurt by being one of the only faction where all the units CAN’T have the same faction key words. It’ll be interesting to see how they counter that or if they basically force each DE army to pick one flavour to stay competitive.

Overdose wrote:
I know this question might be a bit 'hard' since the Codex hasnt been released yet but is getting the start collecting box for Dark Eldar the best way to start an army?

I'm hearing how the Reavers are bad ATM but they just... look so cool!

My friend wanted to do them so I want to suggest him a good start.

Thank you!

Well for sure start collection is good. I always recommend that you dont put the 2 Kabals hanging off the sides of the Raiders on (unless you really wanted too), they get in the way, break, hard to transport, etc.. and you can use thpse 2 guys for extra kabals. Give them a special or heavy weapon. This will let you have more options in what to take as well.
Same for the Venoms. After 2 Raiders and 2 Venoms that 8 Extra guys with 8 special/heavy weapons like Blasters and Dark Lances.

Build your Reavers but dont paint them yet, dont add the weapon or caltrops/grav-talons on just yet. Wait for the codex.


I would get Start Collection, 1 Box of Kabals,1 Raider, then a Ravager or Flyer. This will give you a core of 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 2 Vehicles, a fast unit and 1 Heavy/Flyer slot.

Edit: Also you can get Black Corsair AoS box set for more Archons and Trueborns. Mix them with Kabals and they look great.

What's the most optimal build for a 10man Kabalite Warrior Squad w/ a Raider?

1x Sybarite: Splinter Pistol or Blast Pistol? Agoniser or Power Sword?

For the actual Warriors I'm thinking 8x stock warriors and 1x with Dark Lance.

Haven't decided the load out for the Raider yet.

Hopefully I can learn how to magnetize weapons very soon :(

Agoniser almost is always better than PW

I personally run, Agoniser, PGL, Dark Lance and that it. No blasters at all (they are over costed, players think Melta guns are to much and blasters are worst melta guns).

Its not hard to swap out the weapons with magnets.

I never equip sybarites with any weapon, you don't want them into combat and blast pistols are overcosted. Even if they get charged the agoniser doesn't do anything, the unit is too weak that usually dies before having the chance to strike back. However it's a 4 pts upgrade and if you don't struggle with points (I always do, lol) it's ok to equip it on the sybarite.

I think the better loadout for a 10 man squad in a raider is giving the unit a dark lance and a blaster. Blasters are a bit overcosted but you need that unit to shoot and nothing else and that weapon should be in range for doing something all the time.

I prefer units of 5 with a blaster in venoms though. Raiders are more efficient pointwise but I think having more vehicles on the ground helps to protect the ravagers. And since I don't own the beasts I must rely on poison to deal with infantries. I mostly use raiders for carrying assault oriented units.

Kabals going into combat isnt a bad thing and could help you win the game. They have won the game for me a few times. Turn 3, re-roll charges and 2+ to hit. You shoot 20 shots out, charge and melee an Ork unit or nids, cultist etc.. to claim an objective normally will clear out a 15-18 man unit. Sometimes its better to charge than be counter charge and lose both your vehicle and kabals.

Bc i only take 3 Kabal units an extra 12pts to potential kill 70+ is well worth it for me.

I think i disagree with kabals going into combat but i'd replace that word with 'ravagers' or 'raiders' charging into combat after everything else shoots. It's good vs hordes for now. Manages to hold down gaunts, GEQ's and possibly even boyz. Depends how hard a unit hits in melee but our flying fast vehicles can tank em pretty hard esp. if you are out of LoS during overwatch.

While going into melee may not be Kabals strength, (obviously its shooting), they are still hitting on 2s which is absolutely crazy when you look at any other armies dirt-cheap troop choice for a shooting list. I say hitting on 2s because if you get into combat with them before turn 3 then you are probably in trouble and this is not when you want to get them in combat.

I think you will surprise a lot of people with their effectiveness in combat. Strength is low, yes, but you will have more hits to start off with.

 Icculus wrote:
While going into melee may not be Kabals strength, (obviously its shooting), they are still hitting on 2s which is absolutely crazy when you look at any other armies dirt-cheap troop choice for a shooting list. I say hitting on 2s because if you get into combat with them before turn 3 then you are probably in trouble and this is not when you want to get them in combat.

I think you will surprise a lot of people with their effectiveness in combat. Strength is low, yes, but you will have more hits to start off with.

Yep, this. Kabals are good at shoot. But for re-rolling charges, hitting on 2+. You can do more damage than you think. Especially if you are charging other cheap units on objectives, like Horror's, Cultists, Rangers. etc...

If kabals charge a close combat oriented unit, even a decent one and not some melee specialists, they're going to melt without doing much. Against tyranids or orks you're basically helping the opponent, against ork boyz for example I think it's better to make a conga line with the kabalites and not throw them into combat to force the orks to crush into them instead of something that worths more. Otherwise the kabals would be wiped out in the drukhari turn and in the opponent one the unit that has been charged by the kabals can charge something else.

I agree that is rewarding to assault cheap and weak min squads though, even space marines units.

Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them.

I meant hormagaunts and boyz, not their real specialists. At the end of the day 10 kabalites just have 9 attacks hitting on 2s or 2s but S3 with no ap and 2 attacks with AP-2 wounding on 4s if there's an agoniser in the unit.

Charging with the raider is considerably more effective since the vehicle can survive a round of combat and the damage output is basically the same.

Assault with kabalites is ok only against shooty units that have no CC output, just to tarpit them since they're not going to kill (or even damage) anything but maybe a 5 man squad of T3 dudes.

Amishprn86 wrote:Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them.

Blackie wrote:I meant hormagaunts and boyz, not their real specialists. At the end of the day 10 kabalites just have 9 attacks hitting on 2s or 2s but S3 with no ap and 2 attacks with AP-2 wounding on 4s if there's an agoniser in the unit.

Charging with the raider is considerably more effective since the vehicle can survive a round of combat and the damage output is basically the same.

Assault with kabalites is ok only against shooty units that have no CC output, just to tarpit them since they're not going to kill (or even damage) anything but maybe a 5 man squad of T3 dudes.

Looks at what i type.... Looks at what you type.


Repeats:
"Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them."

Against nids and they have a 3-4man Tgant unit or 1-2 Rippers left after you shot? yes charge.. Charge a large unit? no. Charge 2-4 Hgants? Sure, charge 5+? no.
Not that hard to understand.
.
Edit: Spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to add. I dont play with Venoms and i use large amounts of Kabals, I even dont really use Raiders anymore, they are not worth the points at all.

Really ? Warriors riding in Raiders is what draws me to the army, among many things, I love the visuals of having a true pirate party raining death from their skimmers.

Had a game vs nids today. He had no DS'ing units and i had about 4 and he also got first turn. He had like 3 units of 20 genestealers for maybe 60 total. I think by the time we finished turn 3 or 4 it was a tie or he won by one. All but one of his genestealer units was annihilated and one of his monsters died (as well as one zoanthrope later). I lost 2 ravagers and later the void raven as well as a 20 man unit of warriors. He also got first blood but i had managed to get linebreaker i think.

If i had to say he was probably winning (hard to say though) but i had been killing enough to make it an insanely close game. He also had some lucky rolls.

Basically i DS'ed so that most of my stuff hit him in the flank while he was attacking the main board normally. I basically hit him on his right flank (my left) and took him out little by little. All things considered it actually worked pretty well. He probably only had about 10 genestealers left, his remaining zoanthrope was on one wound and his hive tyrant was down 5 wounds. I need a better way to fight tyrant guard though.

Oh wait i also lost the 5 man unit of incubi so i guess i lost by one. Had it continued (store closed after our turn 4) i suppose it could've gone my way. Him getting first turn didn't help or the fact his faction has a codex and that dark eldar anti-infantry is fairly weak. That said vs genestealers poisoned attacks aren't too bad. Against hordes however poisoned shooting just doesn't do enough however.

 Amishprn86 wrote:



Looks at what i type.... Looks at what you type.


Repeats:
"Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them."

Against nids and they have a 3-4man Tgant unit or 1-2 Rippers left after you shot? yes charge.. Charge a large unit? no. Charge 2-4 Hgants? Sure, charge 5+? no.
Not that hard to understand.
.

Icculus suggested charging cheap troops with kabalites, in general. I'd just replied that some of those cheap troops shouldn't be assaulted I wasn't referring specifically to you

I was simply disagreeing with the effectiveness in combat for kabalites, they're extremely weak in assault. But of course if you charge something that has low armor and low amount of wounds the tactics can be rewarding, it just seems more a move for a no brainer than a tip though Even guardsmen can kill some of those units, like 1-2 rippers or a few termagants, in combat.

By the way, I'm planning on getting one of the flyers. On paper they don't look very different, but I'm more oriented towards the bomber. The voidraven with only 2 S9 shots and a mine costs as much as a jetfighter with 2 lances, a twin splinter rifle and missile. Is the bomber better than the razorwing?

Aaranis wrote:Really ? Warriors riding in Raiders is what draws me to the army, among many things, I love the visuals of having a true pirate party raining death from their skimmers.

What i love about DE isnt good, Reavers, Venoms, Talos (i have 7 of these guys ffs). I have Corsairs for that "Pirate feel" and i love them... well did in 7th, they are gone now.

My 7th list was (and my favorite so far out of 5th-8th)
Lhamean
Lhamean
Warriors: Venom x3
Reavers: x6, x2 Caltrops x4
Scourges x5: x4 HWB
CTC 5 HWB's
DA WWP

flamingkillamajig wrote:Had a game vs nids today. He had no DS'ing units and i had about 4 and he also got first turn. He had like 3 units of 20 genestealers for maybe 60 total. I think by the time we finished turn 3 or 4 it was a tie or he won by one. All but one of his genestealer units was annihilated and one of his monsters died (as well as one zoanthrope later). I lost 2 ravagers and later the void raven as well as a 20 man unit of warriors. He also got first blood but i had managed to get linebreaker i think.

If i had to say he was probably winning (hard to say though) but i had been killing enough to make it an insanely close game. He also had some lucky rolls.

Basically i DS'ed so that most of my stuff hit him in the flank while he was attacking the main board normally. I basically hit him on his right flank (my left) and took him out little by little. All things considered it actually worked pretty well. He probably only had about 10 genestealers left, his remaining zoanthrope was on one wound and his hive tyrant was down 5 wounds. I need a better way to fight tyrant guard though.

Oh wait i also lost the 5 man unit of incubi so i guess i lost by one. Had it continued (store closed after our turn 4) i suppose it could've gone my way. Him getting first turn didn't help or the fact his faction has a codex and that dark eldar anti-infantry is fairly weak. That said vs genestealers poisoned attacks aren't too bad. Against hordes however poisoned shooting just doesn't do enough however.

GJ on doing well against them, nids is a very good codex, my favorite in 8th so far.

You know honestly i think poisoned shots aren't as bad as people make them out to be (they're currently really good at taking out genestealers). You just have to understand they're not anti-horde. They are anti-medium infantry and anything with 4+ or 5+ saves. They can also handle bikes to an extent. Even in 7th poisoned was more anti-bike (due to jink) and anti medium or ogryn and tyrant guard sized infantry.

For hordes we need to just slam our ravagers or raiders into the units and hold them in there.

I'm also mixed on scourge now. I'm mixed because while they don't have the firepower of warriors or the wounds for equal points they very much have mobility and an 18" range gun vs a 12" gun for max effect.

Since he was single-filing his genestealers due to the flank i actually was able to keep him at range longer, converge at one enemy unit to eliminate one unit of genestealers while being at range of the others and then just keep doing that to whittle him down.

If nothing else i feel like i got a moral victory killing so many freaking genestealers. Not only that but most of his units outside of the genestealers weren't very anti-infantry in nature so much as anti-vehicle.

If i had a least valuable player i'd say it was the incubi. He made rolls to save that he shouldn't have and perhaps charging them into the tyrant guard rather than the zoanthropes was a bad idea. He just sorta psychic'd them down and that allowed his unit to shoot anyway but i suppose it forced him to go for the incubi with psychic. Still wouldn't have mattered if i just murdered the zoanthropes with incubi though.

------

In 7th bikes with cluster caltrops were good. Scourge were still decent. Incubi were better but strength 4 is much worse than it ever used to be. Poison was good vs bikes and ogryn sized units.

I had this one silly build also that sorta worked fairly well. I took 4 archons (with huskblade and shadowfield) and merged them into one squad and put them in a raider and flat out towards an enemy that needed to die. Yes the strength was bad, yes the AP was kinda garbage. However the sheer amount of ranged firepower that unit could absorb was downright hilarious. I really mean that as i managed to take out a stormsurge with that unit but only just and that was 7th. Now keep in mind back then when a shadowfield failed a save the shield would still last the rest of the phase for any other hits. Strength 5 was spammed but not so much strength 6 or higher which usually got deflected when it actually did hit. Also keep in mind they had to fight the rest of my army as well. As soon as one archon failed his 2+ inv save (like how guard and tau only really were shooting armies and gun-lines hard) i would mostly be in the clear and then just switch out the closest archon for most firepower with a working shadowfield to take all the shots instead. It was so cancerous for the enemy to deal with but it was stupid and fairly good. Also any wound made was instant death (and that goes through FnP which was also prevalent on monsters) which while not the best thing ever when spammed got maybe 16 or more attacks and vs a stormsurge's 3+ armor had the potential to hurt. Probably the only good thing i made myself for dark eldar in 7th and it was pretty good like reavers and covens units.

I'm to agree that Incubi are not very impressive at the moment. Tons of attacks and the chance for some mortal wounds seem very cool, but they die just as easily as any other infantry. So they have to swing first to do anything at all, and if they fail to kill their enemy, they die the next turn. One of the requirements in 8th edition for a melee unit, is at least some durability.

4+ invuln on wyches and their point cost compared to incubi actually make them a better option. I think if you take equal points worth of wyches and incubi that the Wyches will be better against most targets. Combat Drugs, Pistols, cheaper point costs, invuln save and ability to prevent retreat (50% anyay).