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 trexmeyer wrote:
I think that after a year of no Game of Thrones season 7 will be reviewed much more critically. Right now most viewers are all aboard the hype train.


I dunno. I feel like critics have assigned it to the 'brain candy' category, and it's tasty enough for brain candy. And I think a lot of the audience likes the firey 'splosions and OMG BIG STUFF HAPPENING.

It's just kind of a shame where things are at with both the books and the show. Martin is stuck like Br'er Rabbit fighting the tar baby. And the showrunners clearly can't maintain the quality of early seasons without Martin to guide them, and are under pressure to wrap things up before these actors start moving on with their careers.

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*shrugs*

I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.

The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*shrugs*

I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.

The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.


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 d-usa wrote:
Small request as someone who has managed to avoid all leaks: can we be sure to use spoiler tags for the upcoming episode until after it officially airs?


Thanks, I would second this.

Love reading the comments of others on the show, but am put off the thread by the chance I might accidentally see who is for the chop at the end of this series..

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 AduroT wrote:
They showed some passage of time. Not a huge amount of it, but it wasn't Super instant.


Per request, Ep6 spoilers tagged:

Spoiler:
I mean technically that's true, but even that didn't make any sense. The initial scenes don't specify but the implication surely must be that they trekked at least several days from the Wall before reaching the area with the ice lake(otherwise the army of the dead is literally just a few hours from the Wall), so even if Gendry ran at full-tilt the whole way, which is literally impossible, it would still be a couple of days for him to reach Eastwatch. Then another day or so for a message to reach Dany and her to fly up to Jon's group. Even if we assume they were only a brisk half-day jog from Eastwatch it would still be well over 24 hours before Dany could plausibly get to them, and there's no way it would take that long for the lake to re-freeze. I mean gak, aren't the White Walkers basically "ice mages"? Why didn't one of them just dip a toe in the lake and insta-freeze it.

The whole thing smacks of the writers coming up with a cool ice lake standoff scene to justify Dany coming north so one of her dragons can get zombified, then hacking together a series of events to facilitate that scene whether they particularly made sense or not.

Also kind of disappointing that they "used up" Uncle Benjin on a short deus ex machina scene.

Before I was fairly OK with this season because they were essentially just skipping the travel sections, but now they're starting to go all timey-wimey and have major characters practically teleport around Westeros.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 19:05:31


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*shrugs*

I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.

The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.


For someone that is usually pretty critical of nonsense (at least IIRC) I'm surprised you're giving this season a pass.

The show is fast approaching Hobbit Trilogy levels of failure in terms of having a completely inane story with snappy visuals. Well, I doubt GoT CGI will ever be as bad as some of the Hobbit.

It's frustrating to me to see a story once rooted in realism to be written this poorly. We've gone from real world repercussions to
Spoiler:
Jon can't die, only MCs can kill MCs, and Westeros has shrunk to 1/10 it's original size...
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My problem with the Death army is that I don't feell... fear. Maybe is because they are just a bunch of savage zombies covered in rufs... maybe is because they don't appear to be as many, or because their King is the norwegian cousin of Darth Maul.

You see the Wrath of the Lich King cinematic of World of Warcraft, and you see the POWER of that army of death. It gives you respect, the fell of "Yeah, this is gonna be very bad". But this one? Is like... yeah they are a problem but not "We are gonna wipe all life in westeros" problem.

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It's quite obvious that someone has developed fast travel for the main characters to use.... It's the only way.

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 welshhoppo wrote:
It's quite obvious that someone has developed fast travel for the main characters to use.... It's the only way.

Or the stories aren't always being told concurrently and large swathes of time where nothing happens are just being skipped?


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GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.

Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.

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I'm happy that others think the same about the lack of credibilty and the teleportation of the main characters.
I'm really disappointed with this season, they have lost the "soul" of GoT I think.
It is still entertaining, however...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 09:47:42


   
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 yakface wrote:
 welshhoppo wrote:
It's quite obvious that someone has developed fast travel for the main characters to use.... It's the only way.

Or the stories aren't always being told concurrently and large swathes of time where nothing happens are just being skipped?



Nah, that sounds too obvious.

I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.

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 welshhoppo wrote:
Nah, that sounds too obvious.

I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.

Or people could just let it all go since its totally irrelevant to telling the overall story.

They've made a few nods to this, like people talking about things happening in past seasons being 'years ago' (in the last episode), for example, and you honestly don't need to do anything else besides that. Only the tiny fraction of super-nerds even cares about that stuff, and those that do aren't even really considering how terrible it would be for the story, at this point, to keep being told at the same pace it was in the early seasons.

I mean, part of me would love for GoT to go on for like 14 seasons to get to the end of the story with the 'proper amount of travel time being shown' at all times because I do love the show, but the part of me that understands good storytelling and compelling television knows that this would be a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that GRRM is completely mired in releasing his next book. He may never actually do it, and if he does, he almost certainly will never get around to any books after that because he is completely bogged down by the details to the point where he literally cannot get the story to start resolving itself in any meaningful way without writing GIGANTIC books filled with tons of crap we don't care about (along with the stuff we do care about).

So for all the people freaking out about characters 'fast traveling', just take a chill pill and think about it:

The timeline of each location have been decoupled from each other, and large swathes of time where nothing important happens have simply not been shown. So when you see one scene in Kings Landing and the next scene is in Dragonstone, they aren't necessarily happening at the same time (or anywhere near the same time as each other) AND there could have been any number of days, weeks or months that occurred in between those two scenes that simply was omitted because nothing exciting happened during that period.

The first 1-5 seasons or so were set-up for the world. It took long swathes of time to build the characters we now know and love. But we're getting to the end of the tale, to a grand conclusion that involves giant armies, invading white walkers and dragons. At this point, do you really want to wait whole seasons for characters to move from Kings Landing to the Wall (for example), for no other reason than just to match the pace of the earlier seasons? Because there is literally no point in doing so. TV shows and movies regularly omit large chunks of time (and don't always tell you they're doing that up front with an onscreen graphic) and most audiences can understand that and still enjoy the story.


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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 yakface wrote:
 welshhoppo wrote:
Nah, that sounds too obvious.

I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.

Or people could just let it all go since its totally irrelevant to telling the overall story.

They've made a few nods to this, like people talking about things happening in past seasons being 'years ago' (in the last episode), for example, and you honestly don't need to do anything else besides that. Only the tiny fraction of super-nerds even cares about that stuff, and those that do aren't even really considering how terrible it would be for the story, at this point, to keep being told at the same pace it was in the early seasons.

I mean, part of me would love for GoT to go on for like 14 seasons to get to the end of the story with the 'proper amount of travel time being shown' at all times because I do love the show, but the part of me that understands good storytelling and compelling television knows that this would be a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that GRRM is completely mired in releasing his next book. He may never actually do it, and if he does, he almost certainly will never get around to any books after that because he is completely bogged down by the details to the point where he literally cannot get the story to start resolving itself in any meaningful way without writing GIGANTIC books filled with tons of crap we don't care about (along with the stuff we do care about).

So for all the people freaking out about characters 'fast traveling', just take a chill pill and think about it:

The timeline of each location have been decoupled from each other, and large swathes of time where nothing important happens have simply not been shown. So when you see one scene in Kings Landing and the next scene is in Dragonstone, they aren't necessarily happening at the same time (or anywhere near the same time as each other) AND there could have been any number of days, weeks or months that occurred in between those two scenes that simply was omitted because nothing exciting happened during that period.

The first 1-5 seasons or so were set-up for the world. It took long swathes of time to build the characters we now know and love. But we're getting to the end of the tale, to a grand conclusion that involves giant armies, invading white walkers and dragons. At this point, do you really want to wait whole seasons for characters to move from Kings Landing to the Wall (for example), for no other reason than just to match the pace of the earlier seasons? Because there is literally no point in doing so. TV shows and movies regularly omit large chunks of time (and don't always tell you they're doing that up front with an onscreen graphic) and most audiences can understand that and still enjoy the story.



That doesn't fly chief, we're not talking about them "skipping the dull bits"(which plenty of folk would argue weren't actually dull - I think the show up until recently had a decent balance between the turgid pacing of the books and Game of Teleportation as we're getting now), we're talking about them showing a sequence of events that makes no sense when you think about the distances and timescales involved for even a minute.

To continue, we go Ep6 spoileriffic:

Spoiler:
Even if we assume everything happened as-was - they barely got out of sight of the Wall, and they merely skipped travel - it still would have taken at least a day or two from the point Gendry runs off to the point Dany shows up. It took nearly two days, in the frozen north in winter, while in the presence of people who can literally control winter weather for the lake to refreeze? If you take the various "trekking" sections in the opening as implying a longer period of travel which is how those scene breaks are normally used in GoT, rather than a series of completely sequential and entirely literal periods of time interrupted by "Meanwhile, in Winterfell..." asides, the timeline becomes even more ridiculous since it would have taken several days for Dany to arrive - nevermind that it's even less plausible for the lake to have taken that long to refreeze, how did they survive? Days, trapped on a small island, totally exposed to the elements, without fire or very many supplies by the look of them, surrounded by a zombie horde.

Now, you can make a good movie or show that falls apart under the weight of its own fridge logic, but GoT wasn't such a show until very recently and I don't think it's as unreasonable as you are trying to imply that people expect better from a show that's been giving them better for six seasons prior to this one.

And it's not even like people are arguing they can't or even shouldn't pick up the pace a little, just that their execution has been pretty garbage.

This isn't snobbery, or book-nerds, or continuity-nerds getting all bunched up over nothing, it's the show's creative team trying to shift gears from detailed and carefully-plotted epic saga to rip-roarin' no-thinkin' fantasy adventure and doing a bad job of it.

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 Irishpeacockz wrote:
GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.

Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.


It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.

The funny thing is that those guys did an EXCELLENT job adapting the early material. That isn't an easy thing. But clearly they work much, much better with the books in front of them instead of some general framework that Martin shared with them.

Regarding Jon Snow though...he's going to come back in the books too, that wasn't a TV invention. The whole thing is his story more than anyone else's.

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I can digest the slight teleportation, as it is certainly not uncommon, although some is over the top. I think most everyone is comparing the previous seasons with a near proximate timeline and snail's pace story progression. We are now in the usual cinematic/TV time progression where a lot has to happen in a finite amount of air time left.

Believe me, there have been some incredibly bonehead character and army movements and appearances where you go, "whaaaa???" I do not necessarily like it, but I can live with it.

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 gorgon wrote:

It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.


I agree. The time skips are simply a question of style; I personally don't love it but there is a rationale.

What I miss is the sense that there's a lot of backstory - where, for instance, we find how Varys took years to wreak his revenge on the magician (and wreaks it still). It's something we were led up to, episode via episode. Now, everything is a little linear and not as multilayered. The characters seem more to be there to move the pieces of plot around.

I do hope we get to see hubris operate, in the classic sense. For instance, Cersei destroying the Tyrells to obtain their gold - when we all know, that if we owe a bank billions, they have to look after us, but if we owe them thousands, they are likely to cut us off at the knees. I'd love to see Mark Gattis's character stitch her up, in the most cynical, financially-efficient manner - as that would certainly be true to life.

   
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I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

Agreed.

It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...


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Honestly it does kind of feel like they had actually wrote a 10 episode season but when they went to HBO they were told flat out their budget wasn't going to get any bigger. As a result they are making due as best they can.

Its does suck that things are rushing a bit as I would much rather have more time in this world then less. At the same time however I would rather they get to the point instead of keeping it going past the point where people care.

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 yakface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

Agreed.

It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...



It's like you two aren't even reading what people have said.

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 gorgon wrote:
 Irishpeacockz wrote:
GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.

Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.


It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.

The funny thing is that those guys did an EXCELLENT job adapting the early material. That isn't an easy thing. But clearly they work much, much better with the books in front of them instead of some general framework that Martin shared with them.

Regarding Jon Snow though...he's going to come back in the books too, that wasn't a TV invention. The whole thing is his story more than anyone else's.


They have limited time but I would say the Tyrion and Varys stuff has been great this season - limited in terms of screen time but all well crafted. The travel is fine - I don;t have nay issue with it - Euron was brought into block Dany's inevetiable victory from happening in epsiode one and I like him and otherwise we might have had to have more Sam or other wastes of space.

Re Jon Snow - I wuld love for him to go North of the Wall and next be seen in the Army of the Dead but we all know that not happening in book or Show.

I got the impression some of the worst stuff like Dorn was crowbarred into the plot to please GRm and no one was that interested in them form the show's point of view - hence they are dire.

On the other hand many characters have evolved far better and beyond the books.

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That was probably one of the most disappointing episodes to date. Completely agree with Yodhin's spoilered take on it. Such a shame.

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 Eldarain wrote:
That was probably one of the most disappointing episodes to date. Completely agree with Yodhin's spoilered take on it. Such a shame.
Watching tomorrow night !

Crossed fingers I like it!

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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 yakface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

Agreed.

It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...



Spoiler:
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.


The entire season could've been better written.

Spoiler:
The entire need to capture a Wight plan could've simply been done through Jon and Tyrion communicating via raven as Dany tries to fight Cersei. Beric and Co show up and agree to help Jon provide proof to the south. They capture a straggler or someone from a side force or something along those lines thanks to Bran's Greensight.

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 trexmeyer wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.


Then you mustn't see many things with plot holes, because this isn't a plot hole. It's a pacing issue. They're rushing.

Now it's fine if you don't like them rushing, but for me I just don't care. Not 7 Seasons in. This show has to end, and has spent so long spinning its wheels (especially with Dany, who spent an entire season looking for her stolen dragons and 6 years not coming to Westeros) that if it dragged it out any longer people would just get annoyed (we'd get another Season 5, and no one wants that).

And I know that if this season was 10 episodes and there were three "travelling around" episodes, or if the action was more spread out, giving us half action/half travelling around episodes, there'd be people here screaming about "filler" and how the "boring stuff" between the actions scenes is taking away from the action.

There is such a thing as making something all pay-off so that it becomes one giant relentless climax (the third Hobbit film might be the best example of this in recent times), but Game of Thrones is no where near Battle of Five Armies.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 yakface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

Agreed.

It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...



The whole reason I watch Game of Thrones is not for the dragons, not for the zombies, and not for the boobies, but to see people crossing the world in mundane ways at a glacial pace.


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