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Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut




 44Ronin wrote:

No, it demolishes any personal ownership of a means of production, meaning the government owns all of your ability to produce. Meaning it reduces your personal freedoms. In terms of harsh lessons in history, forced collectivisation meant a dire end for millions of victims.


Forced collectivisation was a necessary component of the war effort against the Third Reich. Even the US switched to a command economy during WW2 because markets are inefficient.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, I could engage, but I'm not, because we're wondering again.

Communism is awful, and has it's flaws, but at the theoretical level, one could be both a Communist and a pacifist.


The two are simply incompatible.


At the level of reality, not at the level of theory. As has been pointed out numerous times.

Also, stop harping on the Communists, yes, they're bad. This thread is about Nazis, whom I noticed were conveniently edited out my post that you quoted, perhaps because you didn't care for the point it was making, or you missed it?


I never spoke of the parties concerned aside from the identity conflation you are spouting.

I didnt conflate either group into simply nazis and communists. I was just taking issue with people that are mistakenly claiming that communism isn't violent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:

No, it demolishes any personal ownership of a means of production, meaning the government owns all of your ability to produce. Meaning it reduces your personal freedoms. In terms of harsh lessons in history, forced collectivisation meant a dire end for millions of victims.


Forced collectivisation was a necessary component of the war effort against the Third Reich. Even the US switched to a command economy during WW2 because markets are inefficient.


It occured before world war two. Might want to check up on it before apologetics becomes a bad misconception.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 15:03:40


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Meanwhile, Trump still hasn't managed to say "white nationalism is bad, stop killing people". He did manage to not waste any time attacking the black CEO who quit his council for not attacking white nationalism.

This also just reinforces my old stance that any statement of his condemning white nationalism is an empty statement unless he makes it on Twitter. That's where his racist alt-right base lives, that's where it needs to be condemned by him.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 djones520 wrote:
nfe wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, I could engage, but I'm not, because we're wondering again.

Communism is awful, and has it's flaws, but at the theoretical level, one could be both a Communist and a pacifist.


The two are simply incompatible.


Ok. My last words on the topic so as to not contribute further to the impending thread lock: tell me about all the violence inherent in the Kibbutz movement.


That is not Communism. Period.


By all means illustrate exactly how the early kibbutzniks hope for elective egalitarian, collectivist communities with communally held property and pooled money and resources is distinct from all conceptions of communism (but probably in a PM last I go back on my hopes not to contribute further to the point-dodging of the apologists for the hard right).

It's definitely gladdening to see such fervour for the evils of communism in a thread about a hard right murderer. Presumably all you cats would jump into a thread about a guy at a mayday protest using his car to commit murder to tell us about how the victim was almost certainly a Nazi and they're just as bad as the murdering red.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Oh its pretend the right wing violence is worse thab the left wing violence pantomime is it?
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






 44Ronin wrote:
Oh its pretend the right wing violence is worse thab the left wing violence pantomime is it?


You mean that old, is punching someone in the face better or worse than attempting to commit mass murder with a car debate?
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
Oh its pretend the right wing violence is worse thab the left wing violence pantomime is it?


You mean that old, is punching someone in the face better or worse than attempting to commit mass murder with a car debate?


Dunno mate, but throwing rocks at people can certain cause fatalities.

Lets not forget that left wing nut who brassed up the republicans, the antifa agitators who decide to hit people in the head with bike locks and such....caught carrying firearms illegally etc...

No you are correct this one nut in the car is the only example of anyone engaged in the general violence. Violent left wingers are just figments of your imagination.

As far as im concerned both sides engaging in violence are abhorrent. But what is equally disgusting is someone who somehow thinks one sides violence is somehow justified.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/14 15:36:49


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 44Ronin wrote:
Oh its pretend the right wing violence is worse thab the left wing violence pantomime is it?

Where'd you get that?



As I read the thread I primarily see three basic posts:

'The driver is a dick, but reds are just as bad because X,Y, and Z'

'Communism isn't innately X, Y, and Z'.

'How about we talk about how a right winger murdered a person and not expend all of our energy on criticising a set of political philosophies that a handful of people on the same protest as the victim may have subscribed to'

I apologise for having been the second, and suggest we all listen to the third.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






nfe wrote:




As I read the thread I primarily see three basic posts:

'The driver is a dick, but reds are just as bad because X,Y, and Z'

'Communism isn't innately X, Y, and Z'.

'How about we talk about how a right winger murdered a person and not expend all of our energy on criticizing a set of political philosophies that a handful of people on the same protest as the victim may have subscribed to'

I apologise for having been the second, and suggest we all listen to the third.


Then of course there are the people who aren't talking about communism at all because it's off topic.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Its more the case of ignoring violence on the left that was involved, and has been ongoing.

You know, its called handwaving and its intellectually dishonest
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 44Ronin wrote:
Its more the case of ignoring violence on the left that was involved, and has been ongoing.

You know, its called handwaving and its intellectually dishonest

So how many people did the "left" kill in anti-racist protests?

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Bromsy wrote:
nfe wrote:




As I read the thread I primarily see three basic posts:

'The driver is a dick, but reds are just as bad because X,Y, and Z'

'Communism isn't innately X, Y, and Z'.

'How about we talk about how a right winger murdered a person and not expend all of our energy on criticizing a set of political philosophies that a handful of people on the same protest as the victim may have subscribed to'

I apologise for having been the second, and suggest we all listen to the third.


Then of course there are the people who aren't talking about communism at all because it's off topic.



I say its on topic given the violence surrounding the fracas and antifa are one of these groups if not the main communist groups whose political and stated aim is to agitate violence itself.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 44Ronin wrote:
 Bromsy wrote:
nfe wrote:




As I read the thread I primarily see three basic posts:

'The driver is a dick, but reds are just as bad because X,Y, and Z'

'Communism isn't innately X, Y, and Z'.

'How about we talk about how a right winger murdered a person and not expend all of our energy on criticizing a set of political philosophies that a handful of people on the same protest as the victim may have subscribed to'

I apologise for having been the second, and suggest we all listen to the third.


Then of course there are the people who aren't talking about communism at all because it's off topic.



I say its on topic given the violence surrounding the fracas and antifa are one of these groups if not the main communist groups whose political and stated aim is to agitate violence itself.

Well, the mods have said it's off topic so I'd say it's a good idea to drop it, hmm?

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






 44Ronin wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
Oh its pretend the right wing violence is worse thab the left wing violence pantomime is it?


You mean that old, is punching someone in the face better or worse than attempting to commit mass murder with a car debate?


Dunno mate, but throwing rocks at people can certain cause fatalities.

Lets not forget that left wing nut who brassed up the republicans, the antifa agitators who decide to hit people in the head with bike locks and such....caught carrying firearms illegally etc...

No you are correct this one nut in the car is the only example of anyone engaged in the general violence. Violent left wingers are just figments of your imagination.

As far as im concerned both sides engaging in violence are abhorrent. But what is equally disgusting is someone who somehow thinks one sides violence is somehow justified.



Motive and context is everything. Antifascist attack fascists because they hate fascism. Fascists on the other hand, hate everyone on the planet who isn't white, straight and Christian. I know whom I'd side with.

Tell me though, when was the last occasion that an antifascist protestor deliberately murdered a white supremacist.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
Its more the case of ignoring violence on the left that was involved, and has been ongoing.

You know, its called handwaving and its intellectually dishonest

So how many people did the "left" kill in anti-racist protests?


We have a partisan handwave here, because milking victims and circumstances of violence in lieu of having anything intellectual to say is easy.

Or you could just condemn all violence and those seeking violence.

Looks like the low road is your path
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





I thought punching Nazis was a time honored American Tradition.

Captain America, Indiana Jones and Wonder Woman cant all be wrong.

3000
4000 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's not. That's the point. Communism is not a violent idea at all. Someone who espouses communism is not supporting violence so the anti fascist protestors cannot be dismissed as the same as the fascists by saying they have violent ideals. You would have to prove that not only do they believe in communism but also want to bring about a communist state through violent means.


Given that Marx himself said that Communism could only be implemented by violently overthrowing the ruling class, yes anybody who espouses communism is espousing violence. Not to mention attaching themselves to an ideology that killed exponentially more people than the Nazis.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's not. That's the point. Communism is not a violent idea at all. Someone who espouses communism is not supporting violence so the anti fascist protestors cannot be dismissed as the same as the fascists by saying they have violent ideals. You would have to prove that not only do they believe in communism but also want to bring about a communist state through violent means.


Given that Marx himself said that Communism could only be implemented by violently overthrowing the ruling class, yes anybody who espouses communism is espousing violence. Not to mention attaching themselves to an ideology that killed exponentially more people than the Nazis.

How many other Nazi countries have there been?

Just wondering, given that this is offtopic anyways.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Itt; advocates of violence, who somehow manage not only to advocate violence but also complain about violence.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 44Ronin wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
Its more the case of ignoring violence on the left that was involved, and has been ongoing.

You know, its called handwaving and its intellectually dishonest

So how many people did the "left" kill in anti-racist protests?


We have a partisan handwave here, because milking victims and circumstances of violence in lieu of having anything intellectual to say is easy.

Or you could just condemn all violence and those seeking violence.

Looks like the low road is your path

Given that one side(the Nazis) came armed and spoiling for a fight, with armed white supremacist militias backing them, is it really a huge surprise that fights broke out and people fought back?

There comes a point where non-violence is just making yourself a victim. The woman who was ran over by this Nazi piece of trash, for example, wasn't "seeking violence". She was part of a peaceful fricking protest.

You still haven't responded to my post regarding these "militant historians" by the by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 44Ronin wrote:
Itt; advocates of violence, who somehow manage not only to advocate violence but also complain about violence.

Still waiting for you to reply about the "militant historians".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 16:16:16


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

You ever leave Dakka for a couple of days and return to an even crazier, Mad Max-ier forum?

I will however note this:

We had one war involving Nazi's already. Uncountable millions died and unspeakable atrocities were committed on all sides in a carnival of violence that lasted six years. In the modern world we decry the violence involved and reflect on those heinous acts committed by all sides, and readily acknowledge that no side was without sin (often sharing the exact same sins), and that there were glimmers of humanity on all sides as well.

However, nobody is under any illusion as to who the central bad guys ultimately really were, and there are good reasons for that. Those reasons remain valid today.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

One way to fix this problem is give them a big place like, I don't know. A football stadium, plenty of weapons (No cars allowed), and a "Two sides enter, only one leaves" and let them resolve their problems here.

We can give the winners a small island in the pacific to create their own uthopia, be it a fascist state or a communist/anarquist communa.

Is only a win/win for society as a whole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 16:31:05


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

My guess, considering this is a threat about a Hitler loving guy using his car as a weapon to kill someone:

Examples of self proclaimed communists using violence in the US: on topic, if you want to go "both sides are bad m'Kay" I guess.

Discussions about the merits of communism and the history of it: not on topic.

   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 44Ronin wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 44Ronin wrote:
Its more the case of ignoring violence on the left that was involved, and has been ongoing.

You know, its called handwaving and its intellectually dishonest

So how many people did the "left" kill in anti-racist protests?


We have a partisan handwave here, because milking victims and circumstances of violence in lieu of having anything intellectual to say is easy.

Or you could just condemn all violence and those seeking violence.

Looks like the low road is your path

Mate, how is asking for an example of what you claim the "low road"? Back up your claims.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

This thread has gotten wayyyyy off topic, and probably run its course, anyway.

I'm locking it for now - if there's a major development in the next few days and you feel it should be reopened, please PM me then.
   
 
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