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Last day (plus a little) for the kick starter. if they reach a million by the end a wyvern has been teased as the final stretch goal to join their big dragon.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1162110258/time-of-legends-joan-of-arc-15/description

This is a toughy. Really like the way they look but 15mm is a different scale and there's just so much coming out for GW on the horizon.

The main pro of the scale is that battles are truly massive when you get everything on the tabletop. GW figures don't really satisfy for mass battles IMO after that. (But are far ore suitable for skirmish, and relatively low model count games. Which funny enough is an area they seem keen on focusing on.)

I mean, a 4x6 game table looks bit enough for GW figures, but becomes this wonderful massive world for 15mm -ToL being nice because the base pledge gives you a fair amount of terrain for establishing forests and towns. (The village pack really helps with the terrain, IMO. and SIEGE... well I havent gotten that one, but the walls look incredible.

I think if your curious to dip your toes in, but not necessarily about the game itself then getting the Teutonic expansion would probably be pretty good- its $80 us for it plus all the stretch goals. (In total 185 minis at the moment, 10 of which being terrain pieces, and soon to unlock one more terrain piece.)

Last 4 hours!

I was tempted, but without knowing how available stuff is post-Kickstarter, how well it plays, if I'd like it and that near $900 'all in' price...

Gah I wish I had the money to throw into this to help toward the stretch goals. Sadly I'm going to have to be on the side-lines and wait out for the pledge manager and pray that it lasts beyond Christmas.

I'm still on the fence about this.
I recently started getting interested in the 100 years war and then this KS came along... right on my watchlist.

I'll probably have no one to play it with, as my wife only likes super casual stuff and everyone elses field of vision is limited to GW for the most part.

1 year wait time for the Core Pledge (which already exists) is also kinda long... there are 1.0 pledges on Ebay. Is this even worth a thought or has too much changed with 1.5?

Can someone convince me either way?

It's a good game, fundamentally, but the first kickstarter had some issues with a couple misprinted cards (some of which were fixed in wave 2) and the scenarios were riddled with small errors that have slowly been updated as PDFs. The 1.5 edition also has a few rule updates (small stuff) that should streamline and improve the playability of the game. Frankly, as a backer of the first edition, I'm looking forward to the 1.5 upgrade kit more than the expansion.

It takes a while to set up - sometimes longer than the game itself - largely due to how many miniatures and cards there are that you have to sift through to find what you are looking for. You really need a good organization system for the game. Leaving them in the boxes as is makes it impossible to set the game up in a timely fashion. There's a GameTrayz organizational box in this kickstarter, and who knows if that will make a big difference, but Plano boxes and card binders have been a life saver for me.

Some people glue the figures to the bases to speed up setup time, but it doesn't come with enough bases to do that in the base game (you need to buy extra bases) and there are a few scenarios which use individual models separate from the units (I think there is a list on BGG, but I didn't bother to glue anything down).

However, the game itself is, I'm happy to report, really fun. Most of the problems with it are small problems, that the 1.5 edition should help considerably with (reprinted scenarios are probably the biggest thing). Kind of a death by a thousand paper cuts thing.

I find the game to be very fun, and despite its relative simplicity, there have been many turns where I've had to put some serious thought into my next move. And the model quality is pretty good for how tiny everything is. It kind of reminds me a suped up version of BattleLore (which is one of my favorite games ever), not just in scale, but also in the command system and how you don't have complete control over activating you units. There's also a push-back mechanic which is similar to the flags in BattleLore, and a similar reliance on scenarios. Honestly, this feels more like BattleLore 2.0 than BattleLore 2.0 did.

I bought the game almost entirely for the siege and apocalypse expansions, but I haven't gotten around to the wave 2 stuff yet. I also haven't played battle mode yet, since it wasn't really updated into much until wave 2. There's just so much there that I'll be playing this for years before I see and experience everything.

I know on BGG, there've been a few people who have been frustrated with the scenario issues, but I think Mythic has been pretty good about communicating with the backers. They've posted extensive FAQs and errata on BGG (which will no doubt make it into the 1.5 upgrade kit), and there's a new update ever Wednesday. When there were delays, we got updates, and they even attempted to correct a few errors during the wave 2 shipment (replacement cards and a few missing modles). While not without its issues, I was happy with how Mythic conducted the previous Kickstarter and felt no hesitation backing the 1.5 one (or other games by them).

Frankly, I'm happy with the game but it seems like the minor issues (which again, are hopefully going to be corrected in 1.5) have been a real sticking point for some people. For me, the setup time is the only real negative, but complaining about having too many toys to play with seems kind of weak. I'm getting the Teutonic Knights expansion as well, and if they decide to do a Time of Legends sequel in another time period (samurai or vikings, for example), I'd be all in on that as well.

 Alpharius wrote:
I was tempted, but without knowing how available stuff is post-Kickstarter, how well it plays, if I'd like it and that near $900 'all in' price...

I'm not ure if I would go for the "all in" unless you really wanted EVERYTHING. Certain expansions will carry you farther than others, and I think the extra siege equipment, legendary battles,Ars Nova and depending on what you like, the Ottomans are all passable.

By contrast, I would say the new Teutonic box, and village pack are must haves for the game (the Teutonic pack replacing legendary battles to fill out your ranks, and village pack for scenery.

Those two plus the core box will be able to let you play pretty much ANY system of wargame you wanted to play with them.

The Dragon (something I'm getting this time around) is going to be useful for all scales of games. I'm getting it more for 32mm scale RPG purposes, really...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Wyvern (a more 15mm scale appropriate dragon than the gigantic super-beast-stand-in-for-satan-himself dragon add on) looks like it will be unlocked as the final(?) stretch goal!

Just $5000 shy of unlocking a free wyvern!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Wyvern has been achieved! With about 2 hours left! No word yet on if there will be a new stretch goal just before the finish line. I assume not, but you never really know with Mythic...

I'm glad this thread popped back up, It'd dropped off my radar. Decided to back for the expansion w/ deluxe storage box, the village, and extra bases. I'm so very VERY tempted to add the siege expansion to it as well, but storage is already going to be an issue just because you get SO MUCH stuff in the game, I couldn't believe how much I got with just the base pledge for the first KS. I'm glad to have a chance at some of the options again at KS prices, was super impressed with the miniatures and game quality

My biggest gripe is the space this game takes up. The boxes are MASSIVE. Most are around the size of their Mythic Battles box- the Dragon and Apocalypse are just about the same size.
The others are a bit smaller.
Be prepared for some serious shelf hogging going on with this game.
I had to sell off most of the expansions because I had no room for the game itself afterwards.

Nevertheless I'm very tempted by the Templars, even if there was a bit less crazy magic stuff this time around.
That Wyvern is what I would've preferred the dragon to be in the first place.

I got the core box + stretch goals, village, ottomans and siege weapons, and I was able to condense everything down to two of the boxes by putting all the cards into a binder, and sorting the miniatures into plastic storage boxes (the kinds mean for screws nuts and bolts, and the character models into boxes meant for pills).

Some of the bigger models now also inhabit the shelf, but IMO ll the boes they give you aren't needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realized the between the wyvern and the dragon and the ottomans (along with the base stuff) the game is now a better to math to play 'game of thrones' than the cool mini or not figs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Less than an hour remains- we are about to hit the net stretch goal, which looks like another 6 units of Lithuanian light infantry. If, somehow, by the mercy of the great Gods, we can manage another 30k beyond it in this small time there is a last mounted hero waiting for us...

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Just $5000 shy of unlocking a free wyvern!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Wyvern has been achieved! With about 2 hours left! No word yet on if there will be a new stretch goal just before the finish line. I assume not, but you never really know with Mythic...

Ha ha ha!

Great pic of Leo.

I hope they'll offer the wyvern separate of the templars set, otherwise, I'll probably not get it.

I think for now its all in the Templars set, I don't know what their plans are moving from KS to retail if they'll break the boxes down further or if they'll stick to the boxes.


I've now got to wait and pray for the pledge manager to finish sometime next year so that I can actually find the money for this one

They had a preview of what they were thinking about as a retail starter set, and it was a mix of base troops with the cockatrace, which was originally a stretch goal. I have a feeling the wyvern might replace it, as it's more accessible. Though goodness knows I still think the Tarasque is the best monster they make aside from the dragon, and was what got me to pledge the first time.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
They had a preview of what they were thinking about as a retail starter set, and it was a mix of base troops with the cockatrace, which was originally a stretch goal. I have a feeling the wyvern might replace it, as it's more accessible. Though goodness knows I still think the Tarasque is the best monster they make aside from the dragon, and was what got me to pledge the first time.

Ha ha. That’s what caught my attention too. It’s a 6-legged snapping turtle! I pledged a dollar but might go in when the PM opens.

I only went for 6$ pledge for now, I was really hoping that they would have some Miniature-only add-ons, especially as they asked about in the survey.

I was tempted by the Teutonic expansion, but I was disappointed by the low amount of line troops in it.

The 15mm market already has a strong culture of buying models from multiple companies to use with rules from another, with some "companies" being one man bands. Which lets such casual supply and demand work.

I think the Time of Legends team is larger than most and also wants to make their game a game itself, hence why they haven't done model sales. Instead they want to encourage those who buy their models (at least through KS) to also buy into their game itself. Even an expansion pack might spark enough interest for someone to want to get a core set and try it out.

Also it likely cheapens their production and delivery a lot by having pre-designed sets that don't change. It's a lot simpler and easier to pack and reduces the complexity of the back-end considerably; which in turn should reduce errors.

Oh I understand why they dont want to do it, They just got my hopes up when they asked if people were interested in miniature-only pledges in their survey

@Dyndraig- they fleshed out line troops alot by the end up the stretch goals, but as it's an expansion I do think troop numbers are going to he based on having the core game. After all knights and cavalry come and go, but the pikeman is universal.

@Overread- I think that's true, but they have also laid the ground work with their Ottoman army pack, and the RPG variant, ToLestinies , while by a different company is using the same mini designers and manufacturer, and is going to offer a minis only pledge. (They will have a bunch of unique scupts, and I'm a sucker for the little world mythic are making. I just wish they would give us the Byzantines, or the Italian states as the next focus.)

So going to risk giving this thread a post as its the core thread for the topic (unless mods feel a new thread should be started up).

Been keeping a casual eye on this one as the pledge date for addons is fast approaching (February the 5th for final pledge lock-ins). Sadly they appear to have hit a bit of a legal wall in terms of paying one of their core staff and thus their KS got hit with copyright takedown whilst they dispute it. Details are here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1162110258/time-of-legends-joan-of-arc-15/posts/2723291

Though they do stress that as this is a repeat with one expansion the stalling won't actually stop the shipping nor production of models and doesn't seem that the payment in question is going to cause issues (esp since the moulds and such are already paid for).

There also appears to have been some comments in the comments section (which like any popular KS moves at lightning speed) and a few staff have apparently left the company - one post summarises the following:

Well Az has responded to us via BGG. This is what he wrote. Would have been nice if Mythic would have let us know too

Hey all,

I was very much hoping that Leo or Benoit would address the situation by now. I really don't want to leave people in the lurch so I'll share here what I've popped on my own Facebook, which is really all I can say I am afraid.

"It is with much sadness that I confirm that as of December 23rd I am no longer with Mythic Games due to a restructuring of the business by its directors. I am afraid to say that I have been put into a position which means I am unable to talk about any details of what happened. I felt truly let down and hurt by everything that transpired at the end of 2019 so I decided to take some time for myself, my partner and my family.

Generally my time at Mythic was invigorating and I am very appreciative of all the opportunities I was presented with while working there. It was incredibly rewarding being able to run Kickstarters, be part of an engaging community, work with wonderful ambassadors, attend conventions around the globe and much more. I truly wish Mythic Games and the team remaining there every success in the future with their ongoing Kickstarter campaigns and future retail releases. Over the next few days I will make sure to direct any ongoing Mythic conversations & plans I was engaged in to a contact at the company.

Despite being away from Facebook for the last month I’ve received lots of very kind words of support and encouragement which have meant a tremendous amount to me. I cannot stress enough how thankful I am to everyone who reached out. I am certainly a little behind on replying to emails and messages so please forgive my delay, but I will get back to everyone who got in touch.

I will miss the Mythic community greatly and am very sad that I was denied any opportunity to say an official farewell, but I very much intend to continue working in the tabletop industry, so hopefully this won't be the last you'll see of me. I look forward to a new chapter of my career, an increased passion for games and new opportunities to meet and collaborate with many new friends in 2020."

I will still be very much active on BGG of course but no-longer on behalf of Mythic Games at all. If can I help in any way I absolutely will.

Az

Personally I still remain positive about this KS since it seems that the majority of their first KS are delivered without issue (some people still seem to have an issue, but these appear to be outliers that one might expect with any major KS with a lot of product and customers)/


Which brings me to my main point about this post - anyone who's got into this got any thoughts on the BEST kits to get from the set? Right now I'm keen to get the core set since that makes it all work; but the rest its really up in the air as to what to get as they've some great looking models in all of them (and getting ALL of it isn't on the cards at all)

Layoffs and unpaid bills. They grew quite large after Joan 1.0 KSer, including having offices in France and the UK. Tale as old as time. KSer 6 years ago was awash with money for this big campaigns but now days there's a lot of competition and you can't make what you once did. Solomon Kane not doing anywhere near what they wanted, and being a licensed IP, had to hurt too.

As for the takedown. I do find it odd that Mythic games has no idea what they owe for royalties and are relying on the person earning them to know what their sales are and such which according to them is wrong because he got it from an external source. No wonder it's a mess.

Overread wrote:Which brings me to my main point about this post - anyone who's got into this got any thoughts on the BEST kits to get from the set? Right now I'm keen to get the core set since that makes it all work; but the rest its really up in the air as to what to get as they've some great looking models in all of them (and getting ALL of it isn't on the cards at all)

After the core set, the Apocalypse and Siege expansions have the best miniatures. The Siege expansion in particular looks amazing on the board. Also, I'd get the scenario book too, if it isn't part of the core pledge. I don't know if the 1.5 core set and expansion reprints will have new rules/scenario books in them.

Monkeysloth wrote:As for the takedown. I do find it odd that Mythic games has no idea what they owe for royalties and are relying on the person earning them to know what their sales are and such which according to them is wrong because he got it from an external source. No wonder it's a mess.

They likely know exactly how much royalties are owed, but need some sort of invoice from the contractor before they can pay it out. When I worked as a contract writer, I still had to send an invoice for what I had written, even though they literally had everything I had written in their hands. It seemed more like a technically to me, but I'm sure that when it comes to the legality of paying money to people, technicalities matter.

I'm certainly not suggesting this is the case but it's not impossible that a contractor might prefer to be paid without an official invoice so they can 'minimise' tax liabilities

or mythic might just be a bit inept about paying their bills

Mythic have offered to pay what they believe they owe based upon the contact but the writer is disputing the amount. They have asked him to provide an invoice showing how he has calculated what he is okay for but he hasn’t provided this.

"The contract specifies that Pascal Bernard will receive a percentage of the Net Turnover Excluding Tax. "

I think it's more likely a dispute about how this "Net Turnover Excluding Tax" is computed. Pascal Bernard is one of the game designers, so obviously is highly involved in the project, but to what extent? The KS update gives examples such as taxes, shipping, sleeves, and the RPG game that Pascal was not involved in. But there may be other aspects of the project Pascal thinks he is part of, but Mythic does not. Pascal has not provided an invoice, but -- I'm guessing -- maybe his lawyer told him not to because it might give Mythic some sort of legal advantage over him. Mythic has their own lawyer, and professionals they have consulted. And, of course, just because you have a lawyer, you only think you're in the right.

Unfortunately, since Pascal Bernard is a major game designer in the project, there's that likelihood that he will not work with Mythic again. Another game designer could replace him. I don't know who owns what rights to Joan of Arc or its game system they were going to use for other projects.

By the nature of the fact that Pascal can't stop the KS fullfilling - ergo shipping product, it sounds like whilst he has an intellectual control over the content he created under contract, he doesn't own the actual company nor product itself. In theory this means he can challenge them in court for the money, but not a controlling stake in the company.

It would imagine it means that they could continue to use all the material and sell it as they wish once the dispute is resolved - mostly the resolution will be a variation on the value of that contract that should be paid. Add on legal fees and such as well of course.

So they can move forward, plus as the first KS pretty much gave them a completed game in a box they can likely trade for a good while; adding in content developed by other specialists.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Overread wrote:Which brings me to my main point about this post - anyone who's got into this got any thoughts on the BEST kits to get from the set? Right now I'm keen to get the core set since that makes it all work; but the rest its really up in the air as to what to get as they've some great looking models in all of them (and getting ALL of it isn't on the cards at all)

After the core set, the Apocalypse and Siege expansions have the best miniatures. The Siege expansion in particular looks amazing on the board. Also, I'd get the scenario book too, if it isn't part of the core pledge. I don't know if the 1.5 core set and expansion reprints will have new rules/scenario books in them.

Monkeysloth wrote:As for the takedown. I do find it odd that Mythic games has no idea what they owe for royalties and are relying on the person earning them to know what their sales are and such which according to them is wrong because he got it from an external source. No wonder it's a mess.

They likely know exactly how much royalties are owed, but need some sort of invoice from the contractor before they can pay it out. When I worked as a contract writer, I still had to send an invoice for what I had written, even though they literally had everything I had written in their hands. It seemed more like a technically to me, but I'm sure that when it comes to the legality of paying money to people, technicalities matter.

Ya, I have to admit, I only read about half the update and didn't get that far and assumed it was Royalty payments where I've, at least, never had to send an invoice to get. It seams to be a tiff over the contractor saying he should get paid for the total amount collected (including shipping and 3rd party items) vs he should get paid based off of game units. Hard to say what's right without seeing the actual contract wording and knowing some french laws.

Also reminds me that they just added a bunch of mini expansion minis sets of you just want extra figures or terrain, I may need to update my pledgemanager. Again.