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Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Ice_can wrote:

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.

Except Guard players have also suggested locking them to Factions, not just Detachments--and we still get the same nonsense arguments that you're currently making.

So which is it? Is it not cool for Detachment locking or is it not cool for Faction locking? Either one of those would kill soup as an issue. So would a fluffy rule preventing Guard Warlords when other factions have HQ choices on the field.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I definitively think CPs should be Codex locked.

Personally I would like to see them sub codex locked as well (Cadian SC ordering some Catachans around fair enough, not with the level of control needed for CPs however!), but others would cry.

Guard wise plenty of things I could say boost wise, but given the level of loathing for the poor troopers nerf wise I would do the CP change, make Catachans armour 6+ (they basically aren't wearing any) but +2 in cover and make vengeance for Cadia a 2CP stratagem as currently it is just roflstomp against chaos with it.

I honestly couldn't care less about guardsmen being 5 points each, it is a minor change to the points I spend in an army. I would anyway prefer for their upgrades to come down in price and the difference be added onto the base cost of a squad to try and stop the naked guardsman syndrome which isn't very military...
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Ice_can wrote:
The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.


Okay, two further possibilities:

1) CPs can only be spent by the same Faction that generated them.

2) Your Warlord's faction is considered your Primary Faction, with all other factions being Secondary. Secondary factions do not generate CP and you can only spend CP on rulebook stratagems or stratagems from your Primary faction.

Either of these would allow mono-armies to do whatever the hell they wanted regarding subfactions, without suffering CP loss as a result.


Ice_can wrote:

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.


Whilst I'd put forward that 20CP in a (mono) IG army is very different to 20CP in, say, an Imperial Knight army, I fully agree that such an imbalance is far from ideal.

If you want to change or replace one or both of IG's CP regeneration abilities, I'd be fine with that. Though, quite frankly, I'd like to see *all* CP-regeneration abilities removed.

However, you've still got the issue that initial CP generation favours armies with cheap troops and HQs.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that CP generation in general needs a complete overhaul. Hell, I'm not convinced that we even need the detachment system anymore. It seems like we'd be far better off with a Warmachine-style system with players taking whatever they want but certain units have limits on how many of them you can take. CPs could be entirely independent of this (maybe something like 'start with 5CPs and gain 3 at the start of each turn') or they could be based on the points spent on troops in your army (e.g. get 1CP for every 50pts you spend on troops).

I'm open to other suggestions in this regard. I just don't think the current CP system is fit for purpose.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 vipoid wrote:
2) Your Warlord's faction is considered your Primary Faction, with all other factions being Secondary. Secondary factions do not generate CP and you can only spend CP on rulebook stratagems or stratagems from your Primary faction.
Any faction that relies on allies gets hammered with this one.
(or rather - will get hammered, since most of the minor factions have little to nothing in the way of stratagems at this time)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Dandelion wrote:

The fireblade's buff only works at half range of the weapon. The FW only get one shot each at 42", they then get 3 at 21".

The Fireblade's buff might only work at half range of the weapon, but the Fireblade's buff can also scale with expanding the range of the weapon.


Read the second sentence.

Anyway, since you don't trust my math:

1) No buffs:
- 12 fire warriors (84 pts)
- 20 Guard (80 pts)
Round 1 at 24-30"
- FW kill 2 Guardsmen
12 pulse rifle shots: 12*1/2*2/3*2/3 = 8/3 = 2.66 kills
- Guard move 6", and get within 24". Kill 2 FW
17-18 guard left: either A) 3 guardsmen die, B) 2 sergeants die and 1 guardsmen, C) 1 sergeant and 2 guardsmen, D) 2 Guardsmen die, E) 1 Sergeant and 1 guardsmen, or F) 2 Sergeants die
- A) 15 lasgun shots: 15*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 15/8 = 1.875 kills
- B) and E) 17 lasgun shots: 17*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 17/8 = 2.125 kills
- C) and D) 16 lasgun shots: 16*1/2*1/2 *1/2 = 2 kills
- F) 18 lasguns shots: 18*1/2*1/2*1/2= 2.25 kills
Now, 2 sergeants being killed is highly unlikely so we will take the average ignoring those 2 cases (B and F):
[1.875 (A)+ 2*2 (C and D) + 2.125 (E)]/4= 2 kills

Round 1 losses: 2 Guardsmen (8pts) 2 FW (14 pts)
If you want to be more precise, change the guard casualty to 2.66 and pts lost to 10.64
I really don't need to continue, since it only gets worse for the tau.


In case it's not obvious, I also believe that FW are likely undercosted, so guardsmen outperform an undercosted unit...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/18 16:53:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.

Once you limit CP to detachment or codex you can address this issue much like they did with the knight mini-FAQ. First off remove all CP regeneration from the game. Once codexes have a finite CP amount per game simply balance by raising or lowering the amount of CP generated by an armies detachment. Do we find that custodes need more CP.... fine increase the amount they generate for a battalion from 5 to X (x being the appropriate amount). Restricting the sharing of CP allows CP to be used as an additional balancing tool. The more tools you have for balance the more you can fine-tune the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/18 17:12:49


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

Dandelion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Dandelion wrote:

The fireblade's buff only works at half range of the weapon. The FW only get one shot each at 42", they then get 3 at 21".

The Fireblade's buff might only work at half range of the weapon, but the Fireblade's buff can also scale with expanding the range of the weapon.


Read the second sentence.

Anyway, since you don't trust my math:

1) No buffs:
- 12 fire warriors (84 pts)
- 20 Guard (80 pts)
Round 1 at 24-30"
- FW kill 2 Guardsmen
12 pulse rifle shots: 12*1/2*2/3*2/3 = 8/3 = 2.66 kills
- Guard move 6", and get within 24". Kill 2 FW
17-18 guard left: either A) 3 guardsmen die, B) 2 sergeants die and 1 guardsmen, C) 1 sergeant and 2 guardsmen, D) 2 Guardsmen die, E) 1 Sergeant and 1 guardsmen, or F) 2 Sergeants die
- A) 15 lasgun shots: 15*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 15/8 = 1.875 kills
- B) and E) 17 lasgun shots: 17*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 17/8 = 2.125 kills
- C) and D) 16 lasgun shots: 16*1/2*1/2 *1/2 = 2 kills
- F) 18 lasguns shots: 18*1/2*1/2*1/2= 2.25 kills
Now, 2 sergeants being killed is highly unlikely so we will take the average ignoring those 2 cases (B and F):
[1.875 (A)+ 2*2 (C and D) + 2.125 (E)]/4= 2 kills

Round 1 losses: 2 Guardsmen (8pts) 2 FW (14 pts)
If you want to be more precise, change the guard casualty to 2.66 and pts lost to 10.64
I really don't need to continue, since it only gets worse for the tau.


In case it's not obvious, I also believe that FW are likely undercosted, so guardsmen outperform an undercosted unit...


How do things change if the Guardsmen have a 6+ save I wonder. (like they used to many moons ago)
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Asmodios wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.

Once you limit CP to detachment or codex you can address this issue much like they did with the knight mini-FAQ. First off remove all CP regeneration from the game. Once codexes have a finite CP amount per game simply balance by raising or lowering the amount of CP generated by an armies detachment. Do we find that custodes need more CP.... fine increase the amount they generate for a battalion from 5 to X (x being the appropriate amount). Restricting the sharing of CP allows CP to be used as an additional balancing tool. The more tools you have for balance the more you can fine-tune the game.


I actually liked the idea of tying CPs to points spent in a detachment. Something like:

Battalions give 1 CP for every 50 points of troops in the detachment.
Brigades give 1 CP for every 50 points of troops and 1 more for every 100 points of other units
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Dandelion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Dandelion wrote:

The fireblade's buff only works at half range of the weapon. The FW only get one shot each at 42", they then get 3 at 21".

The Fireblade's buff might only work at half range of the weapon, but the Fireblade's buff can also scale with expanding the range of the weapon.


Read the second sentence.

And read my whole statement. I'm not refuting that the Fireblade's buff only works at half range, I specifically noted that the buff scales with expanding the range of the weapon. That's a thing that some people overlook.

Anyway, since you don't trust my math:
Spoiler:

1) No buffs:
- 12 fire warriors (84 pts)
- 20 Guard (80 pts)
Round 1 at 24-30"
- FW kill 2 Guardsmen
12 pulse rifle shots: 12*1/2*2/3*2/3 = 8/3 = 2.66 kills
- Guard move 6", and get within 24". Kill 2 FW
17-18 guard left: either A) 3 guardsmen die, B) 2 sergeants die and 1 guardsmen, C) 1 sergeant and 2 guardsmen, D) 2 Guardsmen die, E) 1 Sergeant and 1 guardsmen, or F) 2 Sergeants die
- A) 15 lasgun shots: 15*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 15/8 = 1.875 kills
- B) and E) 17 lasgun shots: 17*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 17/8 = 2.125 kills
- C) and D) 16 lasgun shots: 16*1/2*1/2 *1/2 = 2 kills
- F) 18 lasguns shots: 18*1/2*1/2*1/2= 2.25 kills
Now, 2 sergeants being killed is highly unlikely so we will take the average ignoring those 2 cases (B and F):
[1.875 (A)+ 2*2 (C and D) + 2.125 (E)]/4= 2 kills

Round 1 losses: 2 Guardsmen (8pts) 2 FW (14 pts)
If you want to be more precise, change the guard casualty to 2.66 and pts lost to 10.64
I really don't need to continue, since it only gets worse for the tau.


In case it's not obvious, I also believe that FW are likely undercosted, so guardsmen outperform an undercosted unit...



I'm not questioning your math specifically--I've been using your example as an example of what gets thrown out there. People just throw numbers out there and don't showcase the actual numbers they run. If I did that nonsense in any math class I'd ever taken, it would have been considered incomplete.

Kcalehc wrote:How do things change if the Guardsmen have a 6+ save I wonder. (like they used to many moons ago)

So pre-3rd edition(presumably--Doctrines and Eye of Terror books both have Guardsmen with 5+ saves)...yeah, no.

Conscripts should be a 6+ save, but they're not. Conscripts should have Autoguns and the Auxilia keyword, but they don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/18 17:24:41


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Ice_can wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.
as far as im concerned the CP regen things can go byebye, if they're meant to be a limited resource then they shouldnt be regenable outside rare instances anyway. That said, I don't think it will have the effect on Guard some think it will, as they don't need it to generate 20 CP if that's what they're after.

However, the sharing of CP between factions needs to be cut either way first and foremost, as that is the single largest balance issue above and beyond anything else, as is plainly evident by every tournament result we've seen, way more than anything related to any single army. The allies rules are simply way too permissive.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Spoletta wrote:

I actually liked the idea of tying CPs to points spent in a detachment. Something like:

Battalions give 1 CP for every 50 points of troops in the detachment.
Brigades give 1 CP for every 50 points of troops and 1 more for every 100 points of other units


I'd maybe suggest making CP for non-troops a little harder to get (1 CP per 200pts or something like that), but otherwise I like the idea.

One question though - if we tie CP to points spent, do we need detachments at all?

It seems like we could easily get rid of them altogether. Or basically just have a single detachment with minimum 1 HQ and then the rest taken as desired (with per-army limits on individual units to reflect power or scarcity).

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.
as far as im concerned the CP regen things can go byebye, if they're meant to be a limited resource then they shouldnt be regenable outside rare instances anyway. That said, I don't think it will have the effect on Guard some think it will, as they don't need it to generate 20 CP if that's what they're after.

However, the sharing of CP between factions needs to be cut either way first and foremost, as that is the single largest balance issue above and beyond anything else, as is plainly evident by every tournament result we've seen, way more than anything related to any single army. The allies rules are simply way too permissive.

Well done on making my point for me.

So people playing inquisition forces or my personal one of Sisters of Silence plus knight's so 9 CP total at 2k should loose the ability to share CP.
But Guard with 22 starting CP shouldn't lose Grand Strategists and Kurov's. So having 22 CP alone doesn't give you a big enough advantage? Thats a Command reroll per phase (ie the maximum you can use of that 1CP rule book so common CP cost strategum) for 4 turns. Add Grand cheesemaster and Kurov's and your over 30 CP or a reroll per phase for 6 turns.

You keep saying soup is the issue, to deflect from the fact that your faction broke the CP balance for 8th edition.
Purely being able to throw down a reroll per phase per turn is extremely powerful.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Vaktathi specifically said they're okay with CP Regen going away.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Vaktathi specifically said they're okay with CP Regen going away.
even without CP regen Guard are in a different league of CP to other factions.
That's the real problem not so much the sharing of CP.

I'm not saying Soup is balanced, but purely nerfing CP sharing screws people playing non power builds while leaving Guard CP just as broken.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Except Guard doesn't have an excessive need for CP. Yes, they can potentially spam rerolls, but is that really borked compared to, say, rerolling literally every hit and wound?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Except Guard doesn't have an excessive need for CP. Yes, they can potentially spam rerolls, but is that really borked compared to, say, rerolling literally every hit and wound?

When you can do it that consistently yes it's a problem, I'm using the command reroll as its universal to evey faction.Hence it's esentially cheaper for guard than other factions.

Just to be clear I'm not saying soup vrs mono as it is is balanced but Aldari and Choas soup isn't done for CP.

Imperial soup is only doing the CP stuff because Guard broke the CP balance.

Locking CP to detachments harms a lot of non competitive lists while not actually addressing the problem.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:

And read my whole statement. I'm not refuting that the Fireblade's buff only works at half range, I specifically noted that the buff scales with expanding the range of the weapon. That's a thing that some people overlook.

Now I'm confused. I said that the FW get 3 shots at 21", using Borkan and a PA drone which is that expanded half range. Were you just clarifying that?

I'm not questioning your math specifically--I've been using your example as an example of what gets thrown out there. People just throw numbers out there and don't showcase the actual numbers they run. If I did that nonsense in any math class I'd ever taken, it would have been considered incomplete.


But is the math I presented an acceptable data-point now?
I've satisfied all your criteria afaik:
- full squads
- no buffs
- sergeant pistols
- range difference
- math is shown
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dandelion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

And read my whole statement. I'm not refuting that the Fireblade's buff only works at half range, I specifically noted that the buff scales with expanding the range of the weapon. That's a thing that some people overlook.

Now I'm confused. I said that the FW get 3 shots at 21", using Borkan and a PA drone which is that expanded half range. Were you just clarifying that?

I'm not questioning your math specifically--I've been using your example as an example of what gets thrown out there. People just throw numbers out there and don't showcase the actual numbers they run. If I did that nonsense in any math class I'd ever taken, it would have been considered incomplete.


But is the math I presented an acceptable data-point now?
I've satisfied all your criteria afaik:
- full squads
- no buffs
- sergeant pistols
- range difference
- math is shown

Your actually giving the guard an advantage as you haven't included the points cost of the pathfinders that a required to unlock said drone.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Ice_can wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

Imperial soup relies on Guard CP. Pure Guard army is far less dependant on CP regeneration. If you nerf the Guard's ability to generate CP, it will hurt those CP intensive soup builds more than it will hurt pure Guard.


But why only guard? Surely it would be better to change CP so that allied detachments can't generate CP or use stratagems at all, or so that CP can only be used by the detachments that generated it?

This would not only stop IG CP batteries in Imperial Soup, it would also stop *all* CP batteries in Imperial Soup and even future-proof the game against CP batteries in as-yet unreleased factions.

The reason a lot of people are against the blanket locking of CP to detachments is because it impacts mono codex factions mixing subfactions and factions that can't generate CP.

It simply swings a huge nerfbad around and still leaves Guard with 20+CP a game thats a reroll every phase of every turn. That alone is powerful regardless of how much guard players try and spin it that they don't have strategums worth spending CP on anyway.
as far as im concerned the CP regen things can go byebye, if they're meant to be a limited resource then they shouldnt be regenable outside rare instances anyway. That said, I don't think it will have the effect on Guard some think it will, as they don't need it to generate 20 CP if that's what they're after.

However, the sharing of CP between factions needs to be cut either way first and foremost, as that is the single largest balance issue above and beyond anything else, as is plainly evident by every tournament result we've seen, way more than anything related to any single army. The allies rules are simply way too permissive.

Well done on making my point for me.

So people playing inquisition forces or my personal one of Sisters of Silence plus knight's so 9 CP total at 2k should loose the ability to share CP.
But Guard with 22 starting CP shouldn't lose Grand Strategists and Kurov's.
I straight up said in my first sentence I'm fine with them going bye-bye...


So having 22 CP alone doesn't give you a big enough advantage?
I would posit that perhaps the issue lies with the fact that the Imperial Guard are an actual fully fleshed out army with a developed codex and complete model line, as opposed to a mishmash of disparate niche Index units, that GW treats largely as an afterthought, being cobbled together into a makeshift army.

Likewise, there *should* be penalties for mixed force armies, as they're able to cherrypick the best units from different factions and gain access to tools not available to mono-army lists, and in terms of background and fluff, coordinating a disparate group of forces is always more difficult than a single coherent force. It makes sense that the logistical strength and tactical methods of the Imperial Guard wouldn't really feed the specialized methods and equipment and tactics of say, a Space Marine chapter or Knight household. If it were up to me, I'd even extend that distinction down to the Regiment/Chapter/etc level.



You keep saying soup is the issue, to deflect from the fact that your faction broke the CP balance for 8th edition.

*glances at own sig and wonders how that dastardly Chaos Marine drivel got in there*

I've got armies for half the factions in the game, from Eldar to DKoK to GK's and Tau to CSM's and Guard as well as smaller 1000-1500pt Tyranid, Sisters and Custodes forces. Guard are what I own the most of, but I play a bit of everything have probably attended more tournaments with my CSM's than any other faction.

Other armies, especially with the recent CP changes, can now compete on much closer footing, and generally have more powerful stratagems than just a random reroll. If GW want to reintroduce the Platoon & Command squad structure of previous editions to cut back on CP generation, I can live with that too, but Soup will remain just as much of an issue.



Purely being able to throw down a reroll per phase per turn is extremely powerful.
It can be. Being able to spam costly stratagems on key lynchpin power units like Custodes Captains and Castellans is demonstrably moreso however.

There is far more ample direct evidence of that (and the power of cherrypicking the best units from each book) than anything else in the game.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





I'd favour locking stuff via Faction rather than detachment, detachment introduces too much bookkeeping whereas having CP generated by an AM detachment only be able to be used by on a AM model etc is much simpler while achieving the same purpose. Another reason I prefer this system is that you could set it up so an Imperium detachment would allow the CP generated to be used on any Imperium model with the downside of said models in that detachment losing faction traits, relics and stratagems. This would create actual tradeoffs in taking allies and in how you're taking them which is something that's sorely needed. I'd also have CP raven along faction grounds, so grand strategist etc would only work on CP spent on AM strats.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And then how do you expect Grey Knights and Deathwatch to function without a heavy rewrite?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And then how do you expect Grey Knights and Deathwatch to function without a heavy rewrite?

I don't see why one or two codex's having significant issues should prevent changes which benefit the entire game, if a change like this renders them utterly unplayable then they should be rewritten, because they have clear and significant issues which require rewriting anyway.
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





I have looked at all the lists that placed in the top 3 of a Major or GT from January 2018 to July 2018 as listed on Blood of Kittens http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ and compiled all the lists containing any amount of Astra Militarum along with making a few notes about any standout units the list contained. 

Spoiler:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cody-Jensen-3rd-Overall-Salt-Lake-Gaming-Con-2018.pdf - Patrol Detachment of Guard with Admech and a Knight.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Colin-McDade-3rd-Overall-Warzone-Houston-GT-2018.pdf - Custodes with 2 Battalions of Guard each consisting of 2 company commanders 3 Infantry squads and Mortar heavy weapon teams.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-1st-Overall-Slaughterhouse-GT-2018.pdf - Catachan Guard, Smash Captains, Castellan, you know the drill. 
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Dan-Sammons-3rd-Overall-Show-Me-Showdown-2018.pdf  - Guard battery and a bunch of knights. Dan seems to have a sense of humor with his choice of watermark
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Garry-Sacco-2nd-Overall-TSHFT-40K-Championship-2018.pdf  - Custodes, scions, pask, 1 infantry squad and some sentinels.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Jack-Harpster-3rd-Overall-BAO-2018.pdf  - Guard, Castellan, and space wolves.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/John-Weyermuller-2nd-Overall-BAO-2018.pdf  - Guard battery and Knights.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Lee-Durkin-2nd-Overall-The-North-West-Open-2018.pdf - Guard battery, Shadowsword, Knights.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mani-Cheema-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Custodes, and smash captains.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Matthew-Obermark-1st-Overall-Salt-Lake-Gaming-Con-2018.pdf  - Sister of battle, Guard Battalion, Shadowsword.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Michael-Walsh-1st-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-2018.pdf  - Guard Birgade, Smash Captain, Castellans
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Porter-1st-Overall-The-North-West-Open-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mitch-Pelham-1st-Overall-TSHFT-40K-Championship-2018.pdf - The list that ruled nova. Guard Brigade, Smash Captain, Castellan
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Nick-Antzoulatos-2nd-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-2018.pdf  - Smash Capatins, Guard Brigade, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Aurelio-Correa-1st-Overall-Gentlemens-GT-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Custodes, Culexus
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Brandon-Grant-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-2018.pdf  - Holy crap! A MONO GUARD LIST! 8 infantry squads, hellhounds, basilisks, and a shadowsword.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Flying-Monkey-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battalion, Smash Captains, Castellan, yawn.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/David-Villareal-1st-Overall-Sidewinder-GT-2018.pdf - Scions, Smash Captains, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Trent-Northington-1st-Overall-Flying-Monkey-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battalion, Smash Captains, Castellan.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/David-Koszka-3rd-Overall-Goldensprue-GT-2018.pdf - Scions, 4 Assassins, Admech.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/K%C3%A5re-Schmidt-Ettup-3rd-Overall-Warzone-Slagelse-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captain, and a mix of sisters of battle and assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Gerath-Hunt-3rd-Overall-Wetcoast-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battlery mixed with Blood Angels.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Andreas-Berglund-2nd-Overall-Westeros-ITC-VII-2018.pdf - Celestine leading Guard, Shadowsword, and a Smash Captain.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Mitchell-Pelham-1st-Overall-Da-Momma%E2%80%99s-Boyz-Spring-Brawl-2018.pdf – Smash Captains, 3 Guard Squads, and 14 fething Artemia pattern Hellhounds.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Nathan-Cartmell-2nd-Overall-Colorado-Cutthroat%E2%80%99s-Grand-Tournament-2018.pdf - Grey Knights, Guard Battery, and assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Michael-Walsh-1st-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-1-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Brandon-Grant-3rd-Overall-Broadside-Bash-2018.pdf - Another mostly mono guard list Guard brigade with a shadowsword and a single Seraphim squad in a Auxiliary detachment.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Plains-of-War-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battlion, Smash Captain, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Brenden-Chrustie-1st-Overall-Plains-of-War-GT-2018.pdf - 3rd mono Guard list. Pretty balanced list, 6 infantry squads, Hellhounds, Leman Russes, Mortar Squads.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Brandt-3rd-Overall-London-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Porter-1st-Overall-London-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Custodes, Assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Colin-Mcdade-3rd-Overall-The-Alamo-GT-2018.pdf - Custodes with a Guard Battery.



There are 3 mono guard lists that placed in the top 3 of a GT or Major between January and July. That's less top 3s than Tau and Tyranids. Guard is not dominating competitive warhammer, soup is dominating competitive warhammer, and that's any soup Imperial, Eldar, and Chaos are all widely out performing any mono faction lists.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/09/19 00:09:45


 
   
Made in us
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On moon miranda.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And then how do you expect Grey Knights and Deathwatch to function without a heavy rewrite?
They could both already be said to be in need of a heavy rewrite and/or incorporation into a larger "Inquisition & Chambers Militant" codex, especially GK's. If they're having to rely on Guard CP batteries to function (and specifically Guard CP because no other faction is providing that in the same way), then the problem is inherent to those armies, relying on Guard as a crutch to keep them viable is treating a symptom not a cause.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

And read my whole statement. I'm not refuting that the Fireblade's buff only works at half range, I specifically noted that the buff scales with expanding the range of the weapon. That's a thing that some people overlook.

Now I'm confused. I said that the FW get 3 shots at 21", using Borkan and a PA drone which is that expanded half range. Were you just clarifying that?

I'm not questioning your math specifically--I've been using your example as an example of what gets thrown out there. People just throw numbers out there and don't showcase the actual numbers they run. If I did that nonsense in any math class I'd ever taken, it would have been considered incomplete.


But is the math I presented an acceptable data-point now?
I've satisfied all your criteria afaik:
- full squads
- no buffs
- sergeant pistols
- range difference
- math is shown

Your actually giving the guard an advantage as you haven't included the points cost of the pathfinders that a required to unlock said drone.


To be fair, that was the unbuffed scenario so no drone, but you are correct in that any scenario with a pulse drone requires a min pathfinder team, which makes them more difficult to get. There's also the fact that a single pulse accelerator drone can be singled out by anything with the range. A single basilisk round can undo all that careful positioning.
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:
I have looked at all the lists that placed in the top 3 of a Major or GT from January 2018 to July 2018 as listed on Blood of Kittens http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ and compiled all the lists containing any amount of Astra Militarum along with making a few notes about any standout units the list contained. 

Spoiler:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cody-Jensen-3rd-Overall-Salt-Lake-Gaming-Con-2018.pdf - Patrol Detachment of Guard with Admech and a Knight.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Colin-McDade-3rd-Overall-Warzone-Houston-GT-2018.pdf - Custodes with 2 Battalions of Guard each consisting of 2 company commanders 3 Infantry squads and Mortar heavy weapon teams.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-1st-Overall-Slaughterhouse-GT-2018.pdf - Catachan Guard, Smash Captains, Castellan, you know the drill. 
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Dan-Sammons-3rd-Overall-Show-Me-Showdown-2018.pdf  - Guard battery and a bunch of knights. Dan seems to have a sense of humor with his choice of watermark
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Garry-Sacco-2nd-Overall-TSHFT-40K-Championship-2018.pdf  - Custodes, scions, pask, 1 infantry squad and some sentinels.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Jack-Harpster-3rd-Overall-BAO-2018.pdf  - Guard, Castellan, and space wolves.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/John-Weyermuller-2nd-Overall-BAO-2018.pdf  - Guard battery and Knights.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Lee-Durkin-2nd-Overall-The-North-West-Open-2018.pdf - Guard battery, Shadowsword, Knights.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mani-Cheema-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Custodes, and smash captains.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Matthew-Obermark-1st-Overall-Salt-Lake-Gaming-Con-2018.pdf  - Sister of battle, Guard Battalion, Shadowsword.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Michael-Walsh-1st-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-2018.pdf  - Guard Birgade, Smash Captain, Castellans
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Porter-1st-Overall-The-North-West-Open-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mitch-Pelham-1st-Overall-TSHFT-40K-Championship-2018.pdf - The list that ruled nova. Guard Brigade, Smash Captain, Castellan
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Nick-Antzoulatos-2nd-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-2018.pdf  - Smash Capatins, Guard Brigade, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Aurelio-Correa-1st-Overall-Gentlemens-GT-2018.pdf  - Guard Brigade, Custodes, Culexus
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Brandon-Grant-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-2018.pdf  - Holy crap! A MONO GUARD LIST! 8 infantry squads, hellhounds, basilisks, and a shadowsword.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Flying-Monkey-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battalion, Smash Captains, Castellan, yawn.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/David-Villareal-1st-Overall-Sidewinder-GT-2018.pdf - Scions, Smash Captains, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Trent-Northington-1st-Overall-Flying-Monkey-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battalion, Smash Captains, Castellan.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/David-Koszka-3rd-Overall-Goldensprue-GT-2018.pdf - Scions, 4 Assassins, Admech.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/K%C3%A5re-Schmidt-Ettup-3rd-Overall-Warzone-Slagelse-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captain, and a mix of sisters of battle and assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Gerath-Hunt-3rd-Overall-Wetcoast-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battlery mixed with Blood Angels.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Andreas-Berglund-2nd-Overall-Westeros-ITC-VII-2018.pdf - Celestine leading Guard, Shadowsword, and a Smash Captain.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Mitchell-Pelham-1st-Overall-Da-Momma%E2%80%99s-Boyz-Spring-Brawl-2018.pdf – Smash Captains, 3 Guard Squads, and 14 fething Artemia pattern Hellhounds.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Nathan-Cartmell-2nd-Overall-Colorado-Cutthroat%E2%80%99s-Grand-Tournament-2018.pdf - Grey Knights, Guard Battery, and assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Michael-Walsh-1st-Overall-Barnyard-Brawl-1-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Brandon-Grant-3rd-Overall-Broadside-Bash-2018.pdf - Another mostly mono guard list Guard brigade with a shadowsword and a single Seraphim squad in a Auxiliary detachment.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Plains-of-War-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Battlion, Smash Captain, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Brenden-Chrustie-1st-Overall-Plains-of-War-GT-2018.pdf - 3rd mono Guard list. Pretty balanced list, 6 infantry squads, Hellhounds, Leman Russes, Mortar Squads.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Brandt-3rd-Overall-London-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Smash Captains, Custodes.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mike-Porter-1st-Overall-London-GT-2018.pdf - Guard Brigade, Custodes, Assassins.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Colin-Mcdade-3rd-Overall-The-Alamo-GT-2018.pdf - Custodes with a Guard Battery.



There are 3 mono guard lists that placed in the top 3 of a GT or Major between January and July. That's less top 3s than Tau and Tyranids. Guard is not dominating competitive warhammer, soup is dominating competitive warhammer, and that's any soup Imperial, Eldar, and Chaos are all widely out performing any mono faction lists.

How many Imperium soup lists that placed in the top 3 contained no Guard?

Why would any Guard player not soup when there is absolutely no negative to doing so? Perhaps there are more mono Tau top 3s because they cannot soup in any way shape or form so all Tau players have to run mono or not run at all? Do you really think if Tau had the Imperium keyword you'd see any mono Tau armies? Nids, ironically and ridiculously, can soup with some Guard units via GSC.

You're correct in that soup is dominating. Out of all soup options Imperial is the strongest. The largest part of the Imperial soup is Guard. There are certain units that are always, without fail, taken in a competitive imperial soup list - these units need changes. Those units highly popular in other soup lists also need changing, whether that flavour of soup is Chaos or Aeldari.
   
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In My Lab

There is a relic and warlord trait always taken.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I don't get how anyone could say that stopping the broken units from being broken isn't the correct fix and the REAL fix is to leave those units alone.

The fact is Guard Infantry will be taken even if you limited CP they generate to their Detachment.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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