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Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





I have to say that I find some of the current equipment options a bit twisted. As in there will be all too often an obvious better choice.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Eldarsif wrote:
I have to say that I find some of the current equipment options a bit twisted. As in there will be all too often an obvious better choice.


Or there are odd no limits - eg Daughters of Khaine can technically take an entire unit of banner holders. Every model can hold banner! And a musical instrument and both blades!

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Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 Overread wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I have to say that I find some of the current equipment options a bit twisted. As in there will be all too often an obvious better choice.


Or there are odd no limits - eg Daughters of Khaine can technically take an entire unit of banner holders. Every model can hold banner! And a musical instrument and both blades!


No benefit to multiples other than dodging the 5 or so abilities in the game that can kill specific models tho.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The ultimate -point- is that units without upgrades were always less than units which had them, because duh. AoS says you pay for the upgrade wether you want it or not, so what used to be options effectively become mandatory and it reduces the variety in the game. This is not variety as in 'invisible' selections like artifacts or battalions but real WYSIWYG stuff that is in kits GW are still selling for armies that are supported. While some units have a more complex situation there are a decent number which could just have two costs for two options and thus have two units/ways to run a unit rather than one. As the most classic example, Judicators have a crossbow option that is never used for being worse than the bow option.

The other alternative would be to adjust equipment so it has a trade off (a shield upgrade, for example, could come at the cost of reduced movement speed). And/or split warscrolls entirely, which may need to be done for some things like the VLoZD.


I agree, I don't think I've ever in 25 years or so of wargamiing seen units without upgrades when they had an option to take them. THey are false-choices lol.

I do agree with exactly what you mentioned in the end. That equipment needs a downside. With no downside they do nothing but inflate the false-choice count since the majority will gravitate toward the obvious.

Even points by themselves are not enough typically. Give me an option to put heavy armor on my guys and increase their save for a piddly point or two per model with no downside and I'll do that all day long.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 12:52:21


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Overread wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I have to say that I find some of the current equipment options a bit twisted. As in there will be all too often an obvious better choice.


Or there are odd no limits - eg Daughters of Khaine can technically take an entire unit of banner holders. Every model can hold banner! And a musical instrument and both blades!
They have been consistently fixing this with warscroll updates starting with Gloomspite, so I think it is something they realized was a bit silly. Also the 2nd ed rulez said they must actually be modelled as such now, which naturally made me want to convert a whole unit where every model had music & banner


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Many items do have tradeoffs tho? I haven't seen many shields that don't reduce your offense.

Sword&board usually grants 6+ shrug or +1 save, dual wielding grants +1 to hit or re-roll 1s and great weapons have better wound or rend.
Shields do a lot of things, 6+ shrug is a minority (only 3 units as I recall) and +1 save is pretty rare too. Also, there is more than one unit where it is not a choice of shield OR great weapon; you can have both and gain the benefits of both. But regardless, shields are only an example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 14:28:44


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Tampa, FL

Bwahahahahaha so apparently in the Hamilcar Bear Eater novel it confirmes Settra is a Stormcast now. It references a "Lord-Celestant Settrus" who commands a group known as "The Imperishables" and has a particular hatred for Nagash and is a highly experienced warlord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 18:48:33


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Lame.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
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Wayniac wrote:
Bwahahahahaha so apparently in the Hamilcar Bear Eater novel it confirmes Settra is a Stormcast now. It references a "Lord-Celestant Settrus" who commands a group known as "The Imperishables" and has a particular hatred for Nagash and is a highly experienced warlord.


I love it, I want more old world stormcast. We already know Gelt is one too.

As for upgrades/weapon choices, I think it's more of a unit size kinda deal. If you're taking a huge unit, you probably want the 2" weapons that don't have any bonuses. If you're taking a small unit you probably want the 1" weapon that can do something special. Then there's units like thralls which only have a 1" weapon but benefit from having more models in the unit so hey, what the feth do I know.
   
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Isn’t Karl Franz the Celestiant Prime?
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn’t Karl Franz the Celestiant Prime?


To my knowledge, it's not 100% stated (but it could be in a later novel) but strongly implied that yes, he is.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Wayniac wrote:
Bwahahahahaha so apparently in the Hamilcar Bear Eater novel it confirmes Settra is a Stormcast now. It references a "Lord-Celestant Settrus" who commands a group known as "The Imperishables" and has a particular hatred for Nagash and is a highly experienced warlord.
I can appreciate that I suppose. Give it a 7/10 for it fitting what Anvils of the Heldenhammer are and for trolling Nagash. But 10/10 if he eventually goes renegade because "Settrus does not kneel!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn’t Karl Franz the Celestiant Prime?


To my knowledge, it's not 100% stated (but it could be in a later novel) but strongly implied that yes, he is.
Would be better if it was Felix!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 20:55:11


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Foxy Wildborne







That's not a nod to the TK players, that's a middle finger.

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Nuremberg

Pffft. If they want their totally different world set in the far future after several entire ages have passed, it is lame as feth to have all these characters from the previous world running around. It makes what should be a gigantic and interesting world feel small and lacking in imagination and ideas. (Which, to be honest, is a pretty fair assessment.)

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

GW really should have done the Mythic age - I will agree that they sped through two vast ages and honestly don't seem to have a good grasp on their own time nor geographic scales in their own setting. Likely a result of the lore being driven by the marketing department, but also being split through multiple authors.

That said lets face it the grand heroes from previous ages are all around us; they are the rest of the Stormcast. The big ones from the Old World we "notice" because they are characters we know of; whilst all those from the Mythic and other Realm ages are totally unknown to us. Sigmar has rank after rank of highly skilled stormcast - that's legions of heroes of previous ages right there.


The whole Settra thing is only kicking off a bit of a storm because GW killed the faction, yet many were crossing their fingers they'd bring them back. Settra being a stormcast sort of is a nice nod toward them, but at the same time is a not so subtle "we know he's there and here he is as a stormcast; which means he's probably never going to be a TK ever again"

Then again we don't know if SC can fall so far as to escape Sigmar. We don't know if the TK or antoher faction just like them, won't arise etc..

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Nuremberg

I would not say it is a "nice nod" to TK players really at all. But it is a matter of perspective.

As to the Stormcast being heroes from another age, I dunno. I don't see what the point of blowing up the whole Warhammer Wold was if everyone "survived" anyway. It could have worked just as well without all the convoluted mythic stuff and just been post apocalyptic Warhammer.

This really stood out to me when looking at Morthai's background. Everyone she interacted with was someone from the Old World, few new characters have been introduced at all. And her whole plot revolves around finding the souls of all the Elves from the Old World and making them into "something else".

I just don't really get it. What was the point of the mega hard reset if you want to constantly refer back to the Old World?

I am actually okay with a super high fantasy, heavy metal album inspired "planescape" endless mythic war setting. But all the "nods" back to the Old World make it seem like bad fanfiction to me.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






It is just the Anvils of the Heldenhammer (and CPrime) who are reforged heroes from the old world. One Stormhost out of multiple, and not the main protagonist or even the secondary among them. Saying they are "constantly" referring back to the old world is extremely misleading. There are a minority of characters which survived out of a lot which died off. And a half dozen nods to the old world in a battletome filled with fluff on the new one is hardly constant.

Further, I remember when the AoS fluff first came out and one of the biggest complaints was that there were little to no references back to the old world. Fans asked for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
It makes what should be a gigantic and interesting world feel small and lacking in imagination and ideas. (Which, to be honest, is a pretty fair assessment.)
While it is a subjective topic, I feel saying AoS is lacking in imagination is so inaccurate as to borderline objectively so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/23 19:57:22


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Nuremberg

Fair enough. I have been trying to get into it and that has been my impression.

   
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Clousseau




Its a nice nod in that it acknowledges Settra.

It is a middle finger for some in that it is a confirmation that there never will be tomb kings brought into AOS... at least none that include a Settra.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






auticus wrote:
Its a nice nod in that it acknowledges Settra.

It is a middle finger for some in that it is a confirmation that there never will be tomb kings brought into AOS... at least none that include a Settra.

If there's one thing ridiculous about AoS it's how obnoxiously copywriteable they make everything. Which is to say you know they'd come back as "Underskull Rattlelords of the Necroquaking Underdeath" so be careful what you wish for...

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I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




My main three loves that would get me more into the game (despite how I feel about CCG style board games masquerading as tabletop battles games) would be a competitive viable book for:

* Dark Elves under Malorian
* Slaves to Darkness - viable chaos warrior / chaos knight style list
* Ancient dead ala tomb kings

These are my primary three factions that I have invested a lot of myself in emotionally.

I understand some of the rage at seeing Settra as a stormcast. I personally am not really caring since I don't think GDubs will be creating any ancient dead style list, but then again who knows what they are planning?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






True that.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

auticus wrote:
Its a nice nod in that it acknowledges Settra.

It is a middle finger for some in that it is a confirmation that there never will be tomb kings brought into AOS... at least none that include a Settra.



I was hanging out at the local GW last night, and there was a guy there (who is looking to join Dakka shortly) who is heavily interested in Tomb Kings because of Total War and he wants them to make a comeback because of Settra. I told him about this thread/story, and pulled a copy of Serra off the shelf to show him. He wasn’t very happy to find out that Settra is a stormcast and not part of the Death faction.

Although...being that Nagash is king of the Dead, and Stormcast are sorta undead in a way, is there really anywhere else Settra COULD go, without actually bringing TKs back?

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Astonished of Heck

Now I want to make a Stormcast chariot pulled by four Dracoth with a gloriously helmeted figure on the back that carrying a half hammer, half hammer weapon.

Too bad my modeling skills suck.

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Florence, KY

 Charistoph wrote:
Now I want to make a Stormcast chariot pulled by four Dracoth with a gloriously helmeted figure on the back that carrying a half hammer, half hammer weapon.

Too bad my modeling skills suck.

Nah. Dracolines would look better than Dracoths...

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The ultimate -point- is that units without upgrades were always less than units which had them, because duh. AoS says you pay for the upgrade wether you want it or not, so what used to be options effectively become mandatory and it reduces the variety in the game. This is not variety as in 'invisible' selections like artifacts or battalions but real WYSIWYG stuff that is in kits GW are still selling for armies that are supported. While some units have a more complex situation there are a decent number which could just have two costs for two options and thus have two units/ways to run a unit rather than one. As the most classic example, Judicators have a crossbow option that is never used for being worse than the bow option.

The other alternative would be to adjust equipment so it has a trade off (a shield upgrade, for example, could come at the cost of reduced movement speed). And/or split warscrolls entirely, which may need to be done for some things like the VLoZD.


This also causes issues with existing collectors who don't have things maxed for free upgrades. Missing command members, free shields...Myself at 40k side I'm playing disadvantaged vs other ork players because I don't have 1 tank busta bomb per 10 orks(hey I have none...) and not really feeling like buying box of orks for 1 when I have like 10 units so need like 30 of them...

Free upgrades suck. Especially when it's without drawback and it's on model equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
auticus wrote:
Even points by themselves are not enough typically. Give me an option to put heavy armor on my guys and increase their save for a piddly point or two per model with no downside and I'll do that all day long.


Dunno. Depends lot on units. For many units has in previous FB's be better to be cheap rather than more expensive. And command groups weren't automatic options. Units with nothing, just musician, banner and champion...Full group was generally fairly rare. Depends on edition and role of unit which gets discarded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/25 08:42:34


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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Personally I think the Settra thing is quite suitable for him. He's actually gotten his golden body and his legion to lead for eternity. And he always served the Nekerharan gods, he just never knelt to any mortals.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Depends on edition and role of unit which gets discarded.


In terms of AOS I'll do it all day long if it was an option provided the point bump is not obscene.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





auticus wrote:
Depends on edition and role of unit which gets discarded.


In terms of AOS I'll do it all day long if it was an option provided the point bump is not obscene.


Well if it's automatic choise that tells instantly price is too cheap...

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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Personally I think the Settra thing is quite suitable for him. He's actually gotten his golden body and his legion to lead for eternity. And he always served the Nekerharan gods, he just never knelt to any mortals.
That is a rather good point.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Got to see the new FEC in action today. No surprises; they are as OP as has been generally assessed.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
 
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