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I don't understand how Orks have a 60ish pt unit that can 1 shot a Knight, but Sly Marbo needs to win the 40k Olympics to take down a squad of guants.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't understand how Orks have a 60ish pt unit that can 1 shot a Knight, but Sly Marbo needs to win the 40k Olympics to take down a squad of guants.

If we assume sly marbo must use his double shoot power, hit, wound, and kill the gaunts 6 times with his ripper pistol, successfully make the 9" charge, hit, wound, and kill 4 times with his envenomed blade, sly marbo has a 0.3% chance to kill a squad of 10 gaunts.

41,547 times more likely to occur than the supa-shokka one-shotting a knight.

Technically speaking, anything that puts out 24 potential damage can oneshot a knight. 12 imperial guardsmen in rapid fire can oneshot a knight.

the_scotsman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't understand how Orks have a 60ish pt unit that can 1 shot a Knight, but Sly Marbo needs to win the 40k Olympics to take down a squad of guants.

If we assume sly marbo must use his double shoot power, hit, wound, and kill the gaunts 6 times with his ripper pistol, successfully make the 9" charge, hit, wound, and kill 4 times with his envenomed blade, sly marbo has a 0.3% chance to kill a squad of 10 gaunts.

41,547 times more likely to occur than the supa-shokka one-shotting a knight.

Technically speaking, anything that puts out 24 potential damage can oneshot a knight. 12 imperial guardsmen in rapid fire can oneshot a knight.

I like this game, let me partecipate!

GSC have a psy power that can take down a knight in a single cast!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Got ya. A Necron player went WWWWWL. You claiming they're a good army?

Dude..come on...

Top 10 Orks - 18 L / 42 W - 70% win

WWWWLW WWWWWL WWLWWL LWWWLW LWWWWL WWLLWW LLWWWW WWWLWL LWWLWW WWWLWL

Top 10 Necrons - 23 L / 2 D / 35 W - 58% win

WWWLWW WWLLWW LWLWWW WWWLLW WLWWLW WLLWWD LWLWWL WLLLWW WLWLLW DLLWLW

Orks had 7 cumulative losses in the first 3 rounds. Necrons had 13 and a draw, which means Orks faced tougher opponents more as well.

Are you joking? Have you all lost your minds?

Look at the odds. They're in the millions.

This is the problem with dakka. So many of you have a massively uninformed opinion that you actually believe things that are completely untrue.

I was asking for math out of curiosity, but...hang on...let me go see if I can run this in my script.

Is it bad that I think Necrons are playable now? Not top tier, but certainly not the near auto-lose they were pre-CA. In some match ups they should have very high odds on winning.

Necrons are actually good.

They struggle with exactly what everyone else struggles with: Guard, and Ynnari.

Dakka dakka defines good as "winning a major tournament, unless you're imperial guard, then it doesn't count." Because Necrons aren't winning major events they aren't good. But they are. There are worlds of difference between a Necrons list, and a Space Wolves list, in terms of quality. Aside from those two factions Necrons can run with anybody.

the_scotsman wrote:
Daedalus: Let me give the benefit of the doubt in a massive way.

Let's say, the fact that I didn't actually calculate out the odds with above-average damage, and the fact that I didn't factor in a CP reroll, and the fact that I didn't factor in Dakkadakkadakka made my numbers off by a factor of 10. it is 10 times more likely than I thought to oneshot a knight with a supa-shokka.

It is still over five hundred times more likely to oneshot a knight with four bs3+ lascannons. It is 21000 times more likely to go second in six straight games.

I'm responding to this little bit of incredulity: "Nope - that also requires he fails 3++ saves too. Relic Shock attack gun can kill you with no saves (except for 5+ fnp from a stratagem) Lets get real though. This weapon is multiple lascannons that deal mortal wounds if they hit and costs about as many points as 2 marines with a las cannon."

You need to start off rolling in the 92nd percentile to even consider this weapon to be "multiple lascannons that deal mortal wounds when they hit" - you are exactly, EXACTLY as likely when you fire the supa-shokka that it ends up either strength 2 or strength 3 as you are to go into "mega lascannon territory". And even when you do, you have to remember this is on a BS5+ model. Of course it costs as much as two space marines with lascannons. It burns a relic and at its average strength it does exactly as much damage as two bs3+ lascannons against standard vehicles.

It is laughable to complain about a relic sitting in a specialist detachment you have to pay an extra CP to get into when gak like cawl's wrath and endless fury exist in the game.

Yea - I'm just curious. I don't really have an issue with the relic myself.

Sorry for no spoilers. Apparently they don't work in posts with code tags.

This is the log output of an app I made that rolls dice and tried to handle all the obnoxious rules interactions.

HITS # ROLLS:7 TO HIT:5 HIT ROLLS:1,6,3,6,6,4,1 HITS:3 FINAL HIT ROLLS:6,6,6 FINAL HIT COUNT:3 EXPLODES 6 TO HIT 6,6,6 EXPLODES # ROLLS:3 TO HIT:5 HIT ROLLS:3,6,1 HITS:1 FINAL HIT ROLLS:6 FINAL HIT COUNT:1 EXPLODES MW ON HIT 3 MW 2 MW 3 MW 2 MW WOUNDS # ROLLS:4 TO WOUND:3 WOUND ROLLS:2,3,5,6 WOUNDS:3 FINAL WOUND ROLLS:3,5,6 FINAL WOUND COUNT:3 SAVES # ROLLS:3 TO SAVE:8 SAVE ROLLS:5,2,1 SAVES:0 FINAL SAVE ROLLS: FINAL SAVE COUNT:0 EXPLODES WOUNDS # ROLLS:3 TO INVULN:3 INVULN ROLLS:3,1,3 INVULNS:2 FINAL INVULN ROLLS:3,3 FINAL INVULN COUNT:2 DAMAGE 5 DAMAGE TOTAL DAMAGE: 15


It presumes S11 and rolls for # of hits, etc:

$attackerProfile = array( 1=>array( 'shots'=>'2D6', 'shotsBySize'=>NULL, 'unitSizeBonus'=>NULL, 'strength'=>'11', 'ap'=>5, 'damage'=>'D6', 'toHit'=>5, 'rerollHits'=>NULL,//array 'explodeHits'=>6, 'explodeHitsType'=>'attack',//attack, ap, mw 'explodeHitsVal'=>1, 'alwaysWounds'=>NULL, 'rerollWounds'=>NULL,//array 'explodeWounds'=>NULL, 'explodeWoundsType'=>NULL,//attack, ap, mw 'explodeWoundsVal'=>NULL, 'minusToWound'=>NULL, 'plusToWound'=>NULL ) );


And this is the result of 1000 iterations. The chance of 28+ damage is about 0.6%. 10 to 20 damage is 29%.



If we do a straight comparison of the Relic SAG with a CP reroll on S and a Quad Las Pred we get this:



I set the axis to 10%, because the odds for them doing 0 damage to a 3++ Castellan is stupid high (56% for Sag and 59% for Pred).

The damage by brackets is as follows.



So basically the Sag does damage 3% more often and when it does 4.6% moves to higher potential outcomes than a predator.

I think the problem people have is that the Relic SAG is (mostly) untargetable and less than half the cost of a quad las pred, which doubles the effectiveness of these figures.

11+ for str, 11+ for shots, triggering extra shots on 5+. I asked him again. He did 15 mortal wounds to a knight turn 1, and that's on top of normal damage.

Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it can't, and won't, happen.

....did you remember to multiply the damage number of the relic SAG by that 8.3% chance of getting an 11+ for the strength in the first place?

Because at the beginning of all this, you assumed it would roll an 11. That's a pretty big assumption, considering, as I said earlier, there is an equivalent chance of its strength being 2 or 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
11+ for str, 11+ for shots, triggering extra shots on 5+. I asked him again. He did 15 mortal wounds to a knight turn 1, and that's on top of normal damage.

Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it can't, and won't, happen.

Sure, Which is why I am now protesting space marines with boltguns. 10 of them can deal 20 damage to ANYTHING IN THE GAME! clearly that is OP.

Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it can't, and won't, happen. Haters will call it "fake news".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though it does explain why people are so mad about the vindicare. That guy does TEN DAMAGE! To ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!11!11!!one!!!

You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

The fact you sent how good his damage is to non-Biker and vehicle Characters is baffling to me.

 Marmatag wrote:
You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

Boy, I sure am glad competitive 40k is all about buying models that are bad for their points with average rolls and amazing when they roll in the 90th percentile. My all Flash Gitz Bubblechukkas and SAG meks ork list is really going to rock socks when I win LVO next year!

The SAG mek sits in the back, and doesn't do anything except fire his Heavy gun. You can't take a SAG and a KFF, and he's not a weirdboy or a biker boss, so no, he's not "a model you'd be taking anyway." the relic SAG isn't particularly impressive with regular rolls, but the regular SAG that does half the damage, is just garbage. To get it at all, you have to spend 1CP on a detachment that has almost no use at all except to get the relic gun. Because you're not going to leave home without the killa klaw (the orks' actual answer to knights) the relic gun realistically costs 2CP.

Maybe I am biased against this kind of bs, because it is absolutely my biggest longstanding pet peeve in 40k. Everybody mathhammers every single unit in the game by their AVERAGE performance, their actual expected numbers instead of their top 1 percentile maximum possible damage, but when it comes to the rules orks get, all that flies straight out the window and people screech about things that have million to one odds of actually happening. What you end up with is gak like the SAG, which has been complete and utter garbage for 4 straight editions, but people still whine about it because it's always had some crazy over the top effect that happens when you roll an 11 or 12 and people lose their minds over it so much that they give them hideously bad average performance.

Then everyone goes "oh I love orks they're my favorite army to play against (unless they do something that beats me and then it's bs that needs to be complained about)". At least if you play eldar people bitch about your rules when they're actually good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Got ya. A Necron player went WWWWWL. You claiming they're a good army?

Dude..come on...

Top 10 Orks - 18 L / 42 W - 70% win

WWWWLW WWWWWL WWLWWL LWWWLW LWWWWL WWLLWW LLWWWW WWWLWL LWWLWW WWWLWL

Top 10 Necrons - 23 L / 2 D / 35 W - 58% win

WWWLWW WWLLWW LWLWWW WWWLLW WLWWLW WLLWWD LWLWWL WLLLWW WLWLLW DLLWLW

Orks had 7 cumulative losses in the first 3 rounds. Necrons had 13 and a draw, which means Orks faced tougher opponents more as well.

Are you joking? Have you all lost your minds?

Look at the odds. They're in the millions.

This is the problem with dakka. So many of you have a massively uninformed opinion that you actually believe things that are completely untrue.

I was asking for math out of curiosity, but...hang on...let me go see if I can run this in my script.

Lol dude the SAG chat is insane. Interested to hear Marmatags account of this once in a lifetime event.

I suspect 12 guardsmen in rapid fire range are actually more likely to 1 shot the Knight.

As to the Ork vs Necron comparison, picking the top ten isn't really fair as Orks had waaaay more players than Necrons.

E - haven't I explained well enough in this thread how the Supa Shokka is likely to be dead turn 2 with a Vindicare on the board + Castellan character missile? Why the hell are you assuming the SAG lives for 6 rounds? The Scot has this right.

Marmatag - name and game please.

I have shown the average damage against a Knight. It's a joke.

 Marmatag wrote:
You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

Hmm ok...good point on the CP usage if strength rolls high. More Dakka is dubious, because you need to declare before shooting, but i'll run it with those in mind.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

Hmm ok...good point on the CP usage if strength rolls high. More Dakka is dubious, because you need to declare before shooting, but i'll run it with those in mind.

He used it in his games at LVO, so i think it's worth it. Also i think if you roll a 6 for strength on one dice it's worth investigating a CP reroll on the other dice if it doesn't roll a 5+.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

Hmm ok...good point on the CP usage if strength rolls high. More Dakka is dubious, because you need to declare before shooting, but i'll run it with those in mind.

He used it in his games at LVO, so i think it's worth it. Also i think if you roll a 6 for strength on one dice it's worth investigating a CP reroll on the other dice if it doesn't roll a 5+.

It will make little difference and for every 6 you roll you roll a 1. This is unbelievable. I'm lost for words.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


It will make little difference and for every 6 you roll you roll a 1. This is unbelievable. I'm lost for words.

There is a big potential payoff though.

A 6 and 3 or 6 and 4? I might leave it unless I really need the 11+.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You also need to multiply the odds of this happening by 6, then, because this guy will be alive for all 6 turns thanks to screens.

The point is, it's a low risk very cheap option, and it is stuffed on an HQ you'd already take. It's cheaper than 10 tactical marines.

If you roll an 11+ for damage, you will command reroll number of shots. Bringing the expected shots up to ~8. You will also spend CP to proc extra shots on 5s, which is (2/6)+(2/6)*(2/6) = ~45% chance to hit.

So you just roll them bones and if you get lucky with an 11+ that's when the fireworks start.

Acting like this isn't a great relic just makes you look biased.

Hmm ok...good point on the CP usage if strength rolls high. More Dakka is dubious, because you need to declare before shooting, but i'll run it with those in mind.

He used it in his games at LVO, so i think it's worth it. Also i think if you roll a 6 for strength on one dice it's worth investigating a CP reroll on the other dice if it doesn't roll a 5+.

It will make little difference and for every 6 you roll you roll a 1. This is unbelievable. I'm lost for words.

Maybe if I keep this up I can get dakka to think I'm simultaneously biased towards and against every single army in the game. After all, a couple weeks ago I was a rabid ork-hating GSC-loving fanboi to you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


It will make little difference and for every 6 you roll you roll a 1. This is unbelievable. I'm lost for words.

There is a big potential payoff though.

A 6 and 3 or 6 and 4? I might leave it unless I really need the 11+.

There is less potential payoff in rerolling a die when you have a 6 on the table for the supa-shokka as there is in rerolling a damage result of 1 on a D6 damage weapon.

It is frankly incredible to me that there are people actually arguing that it is a sound investment of resources to spend 1cp on a specialist detachment, so you can spend 1cp on a relic, so you can spend 1cp on a 33% chance that that relic will be an above-average antitank weapon ...

you guys must really think that rapier laser destroyers are the absolute gak in 8th, huh?

the_scotsman wrote:

Maybe if I keep this up I can get dakka to think I'm simultaneously biased towards and against every single army in the game. After all, a couple weeks ago I was a rabid ork-hating GSC-loving fanboi to you

Hasn't changed dude. A broken clock is right twice a day though right? Is it that time?

In all seriousness you play both GSC and Orks, given everything happening in the meta right now which do you think is the stronger faction? Be honest.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


It will make little difference and for every 6 you roll you roll a 1. This is unbelievable. I'm lost for words.

There is a big potential payoff though.

A 6 and 3 or 6 and 4? I might leave it unless I really need the 11+.

There is less potential payoff in rerolling a die when you have a 6 on the table for the supa-shokka as there is in rerolling a damage result of 1 on a D6 damage weapon.

It is frankly incredible to me that there are people actually arguing that it is a sound investment of resources to spend 1cp on a specialist detachment, so you can spend 1cp on a relic, so you can spend 1cp on a 33% chance that that relic will be an above-average antitank weapon ...

you guys must really think that rapier laser destroyers are the absolute gak in 8th, huh?

I'm not sure if this is an elaborate prank.

Maybe they're all in on it? I thought dae was pretty on the money with his analyses of the past but credibility is rapidly dropping.

It's kind of impossible to make predictions on how the GSC will affect the competitive meta, because there's so much in the codex that is completely RAW and completely broken, but which also seems like the kind of thing that will not survive a 2-week FAQ. How many absurd interactions GW manages to whack in that FAQ is going to heavily determine how hard gsc hit the meta.

I do think Nid Soup is going to be at least viable in competitive play. There doesn't seem to be anything as meta-defining as ynnari or knights+guard in there as of now, and if the 2-week FAQ catches all the probably unintentional craziness they will have less of an impact overall than the meta ork list. They don't do things differently enough from standard imperial soup combos to make that big of an impact IMO. But if they let things like deep striking 20-man FRFSRF infantry squads or mental onslaught RAW through....yeah.

If the codex as written right now were to enter competitive play unchanged GSC would absolutely be defining the meta, mostly with their crazy brood brothers shenanigans. And I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong on Mental Onslaught - just like this discussion I was overly focused on the timmy combo of spending all your resources to make it crazy. A patriarch standing next to a single clamavus is as buffed as you need that power to be in order for him to just oneshot a medium vehicle every turn.

Orks are not a bad faction. They're just not ynnari or imperial soup.

the_scotsman wrote:

Orks are not a bad faction. They're just not ynnari or imperial soup.

No, but this is our competition. If you're not Ynarri/Imperial soup level you're jack. I'd add to that Chaos soup too. They perform very well but always get away with escaping the flakk that Ynarri and Imperium get.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Orks are not a bad faction. They're just not ynnari or imperial soup.

No, but this is our competition. If you're not Ynarri/Imperial soup level you're jack. I'd add to that Chaos soup too. They perform very well but always get away with escaping the flakk that Ynarri and Imperium get.

Not from me - they abuse stratagems harder than anyone IMO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Maybe they're all in on it? I thought dae was pretty on the money with his analyses of the past but credibility is rapidly dropping.

I'm not making any claims. I'm just having fun with my program and adding features. Making a decision tree for reroll usage has introduced bugs and become a pain in the ass, but it's why I enjoy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Maybe they're all in on it? I thought dae was pretty on the money with his analyses of the past but credibility is rapidly dropping.

I'm not making any claims. I'm just having fun with my program and adding features. Making a decision tree for reroll usage has introduced bugs and become a pain in the ass, but it's why I enjoy.

I claim that Orks are a good army. I would say they're top tier depending on the venue and missions. For example, with SoCal levels of terrain and ITC missions they are absolutely top tier. At LVO levels of terrain they're good, but not top tier.

Everyone struggles with Guard and Ynnari. That shouldn't be the benchmark to consider your army "good," if that's the case, then only 2 armies in the game are good.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Maybe they're all in on it? I thought dae was pretty on the money with his analyses of the past but credibility is rapidly dropping.

I'm not making any claims. I'm just having fun with my program and adding features. Making a decision tree for reroll usage has introduced bugs and become a pain in the ass, but it's why I enjoy.

I claim that Orks are a good army. I would say they're top tier depending on the venue and missions. For example, with SoCal levels of terrain and ITC missions they are absolutely top tier. At LVO levels of terrain they're good, but not top tier.

Everyone struggles with Guard and Ynnari. That shouldn't be the benchmark to consider your army "good," if that's the case, then only 2 armies in the game are good.

SM did better than Orks at the LVO and have been doing better for some time. What tier are they?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


SM did better than Orks at the LVO and have been doing better for some time. What tier are they?

Are you basing this on the fact that there is one SM at 8th that took almost nothing but vehicles and bobby?

Nick lost to Ynnari by 1 point and scored more total points than that SM player did. Had he not lost he would have been well above him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Hmm ok...good point on the CP usage if strength rolls high. More Dakka is dubious, because you need to declare before shooting, but i'll run it with those in mind.

So I ran through with it decided to reroll hits if strength was high enough and applied More Dakka. It probably gained by 2% (15% over previous) or so overall, but not drastically different from the previous numbers.

I still need to validate the script, but it still looks like one of those rare things that generates big stories.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


SM did better than Orks at the LVO and have been doing better for some time. What tier are they?

Are you basing this on the fact that there is one SM at 8th that took almost nothing but vehicles and bobby?

Nick lost to Ynnari by 1 point and scored more total points than that SM player did. Had he not lost he would have been well above him.

No? I'm basing it on he fact that are heir overall win percentage was higher, their top list finished higher, they had more 5-1 placements (I believe, not certain) and they had a 75% win percentage vs Orks.

I'm sure the SM player had some close games too that meant he didn't finish top. Welcome to competitive 40k.

The Souped up Shokka won't generate the ridiculous stories you're dreaming of because there is more chance of a meteor crashing through the ceiling and smashing the Castellan to bits than that gun. Stop ignoring facts. The chances are in the millions.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


The Souped up Shokka won't generate the ridiculous stories you're dreaming of because there is more chance of a meteor crashing through the ceiling and smashing the Castellan to bits than that gun. Stop ignoring facts. The chances are in the millions.

You need to read more posts a little more carefully.

Well, my first test game with the new assassins went about as I expected it to.

Played a pretty chill fluffy match against some Space Wolves, and I decided to bring a vanguard of assassins instead of the usual CP tack-on detachment of admech with my Deathwatch. So I had a battalion of deathwatch that was almost entirely mixed veteran squads and HQs, and a Callidus, Eversor, and Vindicare assassin.

My opponent had Bjorn, a primaris fatsuit dread, 2 TH/SS wulfen squads, a WGBL on thunderwolf with TH/SS, 2 grey hunter squads, an intercessor squad, wolfwolf freezeray gunship, a jump pack librarian, 3 aggressors and 2 reiver squads with a primaris battle leader.

We rolled on the new eternal war table and got the "priority intelligence" Mission that involved killing characters, which I felt was fairly fitting for the assassins. I made all my intel carriers my deathwatch HQs, the captain and libby in terminator armor, and my chaplain. his had to be all 3 of his HQ characters.

He decided deployment and went for hammer and anvil to allow his whole front line to be wulfen. I deployed everything first, and he deep struck the primaris battle leader and stashed the libby behind a supply crate, so my vindicare could only see the wolf lord. Vindicare hit him for 3 damage.

Turn 2, the two deep striking assassins showed up, and the vindicare missed his 4+ wound roll against the wolf lord (still the only character he could see, used a reroll on it). Eversor managed a charge against some backline intercessors, and only killed 1, so I spend 2cp for him to fight again and killed 2 more. The remainder punched him for 3 damage. Callidus roled a nice 5" for her deployment and got right on the libby. He took 1 hit from her phase sword putting him at half helath and returned 2 damage to her. My opponent's next turn he stuck in combat with the eversor to avoid his sensor array, and did another damage to him, but he killed the remaining 2 intercessors. Callidus got pasted by Smite and the redemptor dread. Reivers show up in my backline with the primaris battle leader.

My turn the vindicare had a shot on the jump librarian, but the librarian made his 6+ armor save. Eversor charged into aggressors and killed 1, then bio-exploded to kill another one, making him my most worthwhile assassin by far.

His turn, wolf guard primaris leader charged vindicare, tying him up in combat. Reivers die to primaris vets thanks to embedded terminator fists.

Game ends a close victory to the space wolves despite them taking more casualties because the librarian was able to do a little dance on the objective for the remainder of the game and everything else was too distracted killing reivers, wolfen, and guys who popped out of the gunship to get to the objective.

The vindicare has a combined 42% chance to miss any shot he takes on a power armored target, and so often he didn't even have one of those in view. Bikes, mounts etc are so common on characters these days that he'll very often need to wound on 3s or 4s rather than 2s. If I were to take any trio of assassins I think the best would probably be eversor/eversor/culexus just due to the high return the culexus gets against psykers and the pressure game of the eversors.

You know you get the headshot ability off even if they make their armor save right?