Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.

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**Quasistellar**

Hmm he might have tech marine keyword. He has WS3 BS3 stat line instead of ws2 bs2 of captain.

**ERJAK**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.

400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.

That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".

At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.

I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)

Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.

But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.

Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.

Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.

Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.

I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)

650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.

**Kithail**

Lemondish wrote:

Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?

I guess so, but that was his problem before. I used to have a guy with him, usually a Lt. with teeth of terra, as the warlord with that trait, so he was the one soaking wet the overwatch first. Usually you make Shrike charge last for that same reason.

Edit: In this codex tho, maybe a Chaplain is better with the +2 to charge litany. Of course you must have the Chaplain on the table and drop Shrike and the VV escort around him.

**Lemondish**

ERJAK wrote:

Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.

I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)

650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.

That range band happens to be where the preferred targets actually are, so it doesn't seem weird at all to me.

Unless you think keeping armour behind infantry in 40k isn't a common choice

But you're wrong on the speed. You'd still be stuck moving 5'' for the Iron Father every turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kithail wrote:
Lemondish wrote:

Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?

I guess so, but that was his problem before. I used to have a guy with him, usually a Lt. with teeth of terra, as the warlord with that trait, so he was the one soaking wet the overwatch first. Usually you make Shrike charge last for that same reason.

Edit: In this codex tho, maybe a Chaplain is better with the +2 to charge litany. Of course you must have the Chaplain on the table and drop Shrike and the VV escort around him.

Sure, but it's kind of a pain in the ass that his own warlord trait is so bass ackwards.

**Stevefamine**

Quick question - with this supplement will the Iron hands still have access to Space Marine Scouts and other units like Assault Terminators?

In terms of Dreadnoughts - are the basic Lascannon/Missile dreads or dual auto cannons still viable? or would I have to get the newer Dreads?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
in an edition where bikes absolutely suck of course white scars will suck. just for example.

I thought people were saying they suck cause you have to make the army last til turn 3 to make sure they are actually doing their special doctrine stuff.

I think you'll see a fair bit of White Scars. They have good strats and relics, etc.. People will probably just skip units that require the doctrine, take good characters, maybe one hard-hitting deepstrike unit they can 3D6 charge 7" from reserves, and soup up the rest. There are gems in that book.

Iron Hands on the other hand will favour the pure list very heavily. Their super-doctrine is just universally good on basically everything. Dreads, Tanks, Flyers, but even stuff like Sniper Scouts, etc.. You can ball-up a Repulsor castle in a super-bubble of -1 damage, 5++, etc., etc.. or you can MSU it out, cover the table and let the in-built re-roll 1s, move-and-shoot, FNP, 5+ overwatch, etc.. carry you.

As far as "here're free rules that make stuff better", Iron Hands just adds to almost anything in the Codex. Even people who don't wanna go for the super-ball-of-shooty-indestructable-death, it's a solid buff for almost any build. White Scars (and presumably Raven Guard) get things you need to build for very specifically.

Oh yeah Im sure we'll see some WS, Ive considered them. But most of the complaining Ive heard was about their Doctrine.

**BaconCatBug**

Stevefamine wrote:
Quick question - with this supplement will the Iron hands still have access to Space Marine Scouts and other units like Assault Terminators?

Yes, every unit in the SM codex is available to every chapter with a codex Supplement.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
Respulsors are special - they require an 11 to charge from deep strike - you use them to screen your units - not the other way around. blood angels smash captain or something you just put intercessors in front of your units - there is not reason to pay the infiltrator tax to push units out another 3 inches. If warhammer had sideboards they would be useful but they are too expensive for what they do.

Fair point, but then you're only saving like 50 points for the double battalion.

**Blood Hawk**

Stevefamine wrote:
Quick question - with this supplement will the Iron hands still have access to Space Marine Scouts and other units like Assault Terminators?

In terms of Dreadnoughts - are the basic Lascannon/Missile dreads or dual auto cannons still viable? or would I have to get the newer Dreads?

Yes the supplements just add onto codex space marines. They still get all the units from there.

Venerable dreads are very playable. They are kinda brittle units but still very good.

**Spoletta**

ERJAK wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
IH will be good, but not with the parking lot.

After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.

You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp.

You will have a decent death star in the middle of the table, but short ranged and low mobility (8" or less, no advancing). It doesn't even have all that firepower honestly. There are too many ways to play around it or to crush frontally.

IH will be really good when playing lots of vehicles in a scattered formation, thanks to the auto captain aura and mobility. The iron father will probably not get taken if it costs 200 points, one more redemptor drednaught is better and you want a librarian and some LTs. 5++ on vehicles isn't really that good, it's a +1 sv against -3 weapons when you are not in cover (which you should almost always be with mobile tanks).

I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I just disagree about the 1750. The only tournament I'm aware of that actually uses 1750 is GW's little fluff bunny thing they run and they only use 1750 because their TOs are too incompetent to see obvious slow play or too ineffective to do anything about it(or both).

That's the only official event though, so if someone says "GW is incompetent because it made x and y" i answer "No, with GW rules this cannot happen". You cannot judge balance with your personal house rules, even if they are widely used.

By the way, 1750 is used quite a lot in Europe for regular pick up games and local tournaments. (i.e. 99% of the games being played)

**Stevefamine**

Would it be viable to spam tanks over Dreadnoughts for the repair/healing? I feel like spamming Repulsors is really not ideal here.

I'm planning on just running a 4-6 Dread mix with HQ dreads + chaplain dread if available

**MistaGav**

Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

**Daedalus81**

MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.

He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.

**Kithail**

MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

Hope not. I don't want a 180 points Shrike against a 110p Feirros

**Sterling191**

I have a very hard time believing that Feirros is only as expensive as a Gravis Captain.

**Spoletta**

MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

That would be extremely strange and disappointing.

**Sagittarii Orientalis**

According to the recent Iron Hands supplement preview from Warhammer Twitch, Iron Hands stratagem "March of the Ancients" can give CHARACTER keyword to a dreadnought.
This further unlocks relics and stratagems that apply to characters.
The previewers specifically mentioned a combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic Gorgon's Chain.
Gorgon's Chain gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, and subtracts 1 from the wound rolls of enemy ranged attack targeting the bearer.
Then there is the technomancy power manifested at 5+ that heals d3 lost wounds of a vehicle.
And of course there is the already infamous Duty Eternal......the supplement will open up various combos.

P.S.
One of the Iron Hands specific warlord trait confers 5+ feel no pain roll to the bearer.
This, of course, can be given to the CHARACTER dreadnought.

**Stevefamine**

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
According to the recent Iron Hands supplement preview from Warhammer Twitch, Iron Hands stratagem "March of the Ancients" can give CHARACTER keyword to a dreadnought.
This further unlocks relics and stratagems that apply to characters.
The previewers specifically mentioned a combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic Gorgon's Chain.
Gorgon's Chain gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, and subtracts 1 from the wound rolls of enemy ranged attack targeting the bearer.
Then there is the technomancy power manifested at 5+ that heals d3 lost wounds of a vehicle.
And of course there is the already infamous Duty Eternal......the supplement will open up various combos.

I'm 100% going to run a Chaplain Dread and make an Ironclad a Character with that March of the Ancients. Target me now

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.

He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.

This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.

**Sterling191**

Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

**Sagittarii Orientalis**

Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.

**Sterling191**

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.

Was this a GW community team preview? They get mechanical and rules gak wrong all the time.

**Blood Hawk**

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.

Yea I wouldn't trust GW employees on rules unless they are on the rules team.

**BaconCatBug**

Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.

There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."

**Crazyterran**

Iron Hands have been a strong choice for half of the previous three editions' worth of codices.

I think they were the best chapter (short of Grav Cent shenanigans) in 6th and the first book of 7th, and WS was the best in the Gladius book and UM (due to Roboute) was the best chapter in the first 8th book.

BaconCatBug wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.

There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."

That line is also in WS and UM's rules, so we will see.

Though, the UM/WS relics also say to treat them for all rules purposes as Chapter Relics, so...

**Sterling191**

Crazyterran wrote:

BaconCatBug wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.

There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."

That line is also in WS and UM's rules, so we will see.

Though, the UM/WS relics also say to treat them for all rules purposes as Chapter Relics, so...

Which brings us right back to...

Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.

He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.

This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.

GW didn't do anything except try and make a characterful codex for IH (and will be victims of their success). There is no incentive for them to go ham with IH and not the other codexes.

At this point it seems like either GW did not factor in feedback from playtesters (most likely) or there is some limiting factor we're not aware of (unlikely).

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
MistaGav wrote:
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!

Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.

He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.

This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.

GW didn't do anything except try and make a characterful codex for IH (and will be victims of their success). There is no incentive for them to go ham with IH and not the other codexes.

At this point it seems like either GW did not factor in feedback from playtesters (most likely) or there is some limiting factor we're not aware of (unlikely).

Supposed playtesters that they don't even listen to their feedback? That sounds like unplaytested to me.

**BaconCatBug**

Sterling191 wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:

BaconCatBug wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.

There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."

That line is also in WS and UM's rules, so we will see.

Though, the UM/WS relics also say to treat them for all rules purposes as Chapter Relics, so...

Which brings us right back to...

Sterling191 wrote:
Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.

Again, there is no rule that says "Vehicles cannot take relics." Until we see the IH supplement, there is nothing to say the Dreadnought can or can't take a relic either way.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

Supposed playtesters that they don't even listen to their feedback? That sounds like unplaytested to me.

*shrug* Either way there is a break down in the process, that GW needs to address, if there is nothing level-setting this codex. I'm all for new content, but they can't be doing a seesaw like this.