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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army...

When people that already have a space marine army decide to start collecting another army, they are WAY less likely to decide to start another differently colored space marine army now. Some still will, sure, but most will settle for an army other than SM loyalist.


Why wouldn't they ?

What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"
the people who want a different colored marine army, will still get a different colored marine army.... all this means is, they might not bother at all because the colors and aesthetics are arbitrary now.
You guys are fooling yourselves.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).
WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.




And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 Type40 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.


and I am the one being called gatekeepy lol.

You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army... All this means is you will get to play against even more generic marines... your point is moot. these changes make your problem worse not better... your are really silly if you cant see that.

Of course GW wants to sell me stuff, but shady business is shady business and its important to call it out. How would you feel if your electricity company released a new model of circuit breaker and told you that you had to buy this new one to continue getting electricity. Its not that the old cant' work anymore, or even that the old one isnt safe. The old one is perfectly fine. They just refused to send electricity to a house with the old one, so you better go replace that thing you have...
Giving people the option to have new fancy stuff and selling it to them is good buisness. Invalidating perfectly good stuff so you HAVE to buy the new stuff is shady. I am sorry you are ok with gak buisness practices, I feel bad for you, honestly, life will be expensive for you/everyone if we just let business get away with gak like this. (p.s. doing exactly this is illegal in some industries. )

Thanks and your feelings are noted too. Your condescending elitism also really just doesnt mater. If there is no where else to voice our concerns about a hobby then a hobby forum then I don't know where. The point is, you dont get to tell people they dont have the right to voice their opinions and perspective. You arn't special and you arn't the king of Dakka. So thanks for the advice, but i dont think I will listen to your silly order/decree ,,, your highness.


I am not being a gatekeeper. I don't care what you do. I am just laying out the facts of the situation. Be upset if you want. SW are going to be part of a singular SM dex with a supplement book.

I am not worried about which armies I face. I am worried about which armies I play as. I don't care if I fight 4 different colors of SM. I care that I am not playing them myself.

This isn't shady business. Old marines are old kits and they have nowhere else to go with them except a line refresh. Just new models won't necessarily sell new models. So it needs to be replacement units.

I didn't tell you you don't have a right to be here being whiny about the inevitable. You ABSOLUTELY have the right. Be here. Whine. I said it was pointless. And it is. Your being upset will accomplish nothing and get you nothing.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Type40 wrote:
What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"

It's going to be more.
"hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play, but I can already play just like that with my current chapter if I declare them space wolves successors/count-as, and I also like the look of eldars, and they give me a completely different play-style. Well let's try Eldar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 13:25:10


"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in at
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Austria

the_scotsman wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different


Boy, if only you had....let's see....FOUR units to choose from to represent your Wolf Scouts?.


you know, I am not worried about Wolf Scouts but Blood Claws, as being Grey Hunters without Bolters just does not fit
the one thing that make Space Wolves unique is that their Recruits wear Power Armour and are weaker than the Veterans, using the same unit with different markings and there is nothing that is left. (and no special flayer or units with strange background are rather new and might vansih again, but this is the one thing that that stayed)


a_typical_hero wrote:

You put too much emphasis on actual crunch differences, when the system is simply not granular enough to accomodate for that.
A Scout got the same stats as a tactical Marine got the same as a Veteran got the same as a 10.000 year old Chaos Marine.

When everything has to be stuffed into numbers from 1 to 10 (or in case of BS and WS from 2 to 6), you will run into problems with plausability.

if Marines would be all 5 +2Wound, while humans are all 3s with 1Wound there would be enough room to make a difference between a human, a human veteran, a marine recruit and a marine veteran

 Crimson wrote:
But seriously, in codex chapter scouts represent pre-black carapace stage, so as long as the fluff is that such recruits take part in battles having a separate not-power-armour-wearing marine profile makes sense. What the SW do with their pre-black-carapace recruits I don't know, it never made any sense that they wouldn't have them.

Wolves put them in Power Armour and let them fight, that is why Blood Claws are more like normal humans in Power Armour
and unless something like pre-black-carapace Primaris do not exist, it should not be different for them

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"

It's going to be more.
"hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play, but I can already play just like that with my current chapter if I declare them space wolves successors/count-as, and I also like the look of eldars, and they give me a completely different play-style. Well let's try Eldar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.


That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

think about what you are saying.

Making the factions more generic does nothing to stop people from playing the factions they want, it just makes the overall game more bland, repetitive and uninspired. Have fun playing against the exact same list of generic primaris marines always. at least with the separate factions there was the options to not play the bland stuff.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:
That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.

Well that's where we disagree but okay.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.

Well that's where we disagree but okay.

Here let me show you the justification again

The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

think about what you are saying.

Making the factions more generic does nothing to stop people from playing the factions they want, it just makes the overall game more bland, repetitive and uninspired. Have fun playing against the exact same list of generic primaris marines always. at least with the separate factions there was the options to not play the bland stuff.


disagreeing with the first statement and not acknowledging why I disagreed with you is a bit silly dont you think XD lol .

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Type40 wrote:
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

They don't need to buy a few extra model, it's all primaris now, and they share the same models. Also, none of their current models aren't available to space wolves now.
Also the rules are closer, and you don't even need to buy the supplement to play space wolves.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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Dakka Veteran




I think the implementation of the snowflake supplements is key. Sure they'll have the traits, relics and faction specific units that are unlike any normal datasheet (like Wulfen), but when it comes to say Grey Hunters, ruleswise where they land on the:

1) Use Tac marines datasheet
2) Use Tac marines datasheet, with the following differences
3) Here's a Grey Hunters datasheet
4) Here's a Grey Hunters datasheet and you cannot use the Tac Marines datasheet

is important to many people. Whether they feel the faction is marines in another colour, or has enough to differentiate it from the normal lists. Even if those changes are mechanically superficial, presentation matters.

Personally i hope they go down the "Space Wolves cannot use the following datasheets from the main Codex" method, with things like Grey Hunters getting a datasheet in the supplement. It solves the problem they're trying to fix (1000 FAQ's every time a new Marine unit appears) and keeps the snowflake feeling. Love it or hate it, rules bloat is a thing to stay, it always will be there for GW games.

Long term, all chapters will get Primaris chapter specific units, once GW have finished the replacement of the cross faction oldmarines. Which is nearly there tbh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 13:47:03


 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.


I am no expert on things space marine. But from what I remember about 8th ed. No one but RG run assault centurions, no one but DW run SS/SB vets, no one but DA run plasmacide bike with speeders, in fact I don't think anyone but Da run speeders and they run at least two different ones. SW stuff had different gear, different rules and different weapon options.

Orcs and nids on the other hand, were . here are my 100+ bullet sponges , my key buffers and HQs. Eldar players till the nerf litteraly played an army that mixed all 3 factions as one and let them double dip on stratagems, rules etc As someone else in this thread said, what is the difference between chaos and sm, if we assume that a tac is the same as a squad o GH? This means that a csm squad is equal to a tac squad. And even the argument that csm stuff is weaker then marine stuff won't stand here, because SW stuff ain't stellar either. Those TWC or WG units, are much better then CSM chosen .

That is why I am saying that saying that marines are the same is an argument I do not understand. GH and BC are substentialy different, and core of an army, then what other marines have. Running Raven wing talons spam with speeders support is something no other marine army can do, because they have non of the units or replacment that is close rules wise.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
Elite Tyranid Warrior



France

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).
WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the number of datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.
And what did GW do to balance out the game after SM 2.0 codex ? They released PA, i.e. books that offer more strat, more relics, more rules and disciplines to all factions. Yes : every time a faction get X rules, the only way to balance out the game is to give the same number/quality of rules to all factions.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:02:41


 
   
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WhiteDog wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).
WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.


Well yes, NOW that's 30 basic marine kits per year. Before 8th, that was 30 Space Wolf/Dark Angel/Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Blood Angel/whatever kits a year.

GW released the entire marine range, made it roughly twice as large as every other factions for good measure.

Then they released supplementary models for all the special snowflake chapters.

Then they rereleased the entire marine range, still twice as large, with the new rhino chassis.

Then they released more special snowflake chapters and plastics for the existing ones like the SW box, BA box, DA boxes, GK, etc

Then they made updates for many of the original models, and released a bunch of new super-special "elite" variants like vendreads, veterans, sternguard, and finecast characters.

Then why, it was time for an edition of expanding the special snowflake marines again! Gotta make sure they've got special snowflake veteran models like ravenguard, wulfen, knights, etc!

Oh ho ho, but now it's time for the primaris relaunch! Redesign everything again to be slightly taller!

Now we're rolling into the edition of "Time to get all the special snowflakes in primaris."

The existence of the special snowflakes is ABSOLUTELY the reason why GW never stops releasing all marines all the time. We go edition by edition, rotating between GW paying attention to basic bitch marines and then special snowflake marines.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fr
Elite Tyranid Warrior



France

the_scotsman wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).
WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.


Well yes, NOW that's 30 basic marine kits per year. Before 8th, that was 30 Space Wolf/Dark Angel/Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Blood Angel/whatever kits a year.

GW released the entire marine range, made it roughly twice as large as every other factions for good measure.

Then they released supplementary models for all the special snowflake chapters.

Then they rereleased the entire marine range, still twice as large, with the new rhino chassis.

Then they released more special snowflake chapters and plastics for the existing ones like the SW box, BA box, DA boxes, GK, etc

Then they made updates for many of the original models, and released a bunch of new super-special "elite" variants like vendreads, veterans, sternguard, and finecast characters.

Then why, it was time for an edition of expanding the special snowflake marines again! Gotta make sure they've got special snowflake veteran models like ravenguard, wulfen, knights, etc!

Oh ho ho, but now it's time for the primaris relaunch! Redesign everything again to be slightly taller!

Now we're rolling into the edition of "Time to get all the special snowflakes in primaris."

The existence of the special snowflakes is ABSOLUTELY the reason why GW never stops releasing all marines all the time. We go edition by edition, rotating between GW paying attention to basic bitch marines and then special snowflake marines.

Damned lies. Pityful. Like SW/DA/BA had, at any point in time, as much kit as SM are getting since primaris came in the fray. DA/SW/BA got very few kits, and those kits were released throughout many years.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:12:05


 
   
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Individually, absolutely not. But together over the course of an edition, they absolutely did.

This is what GW does: They either choose to revamp a section of the existing marine line, or they choose to release 1-2 new kits for each special snowflake marine line and usually for good measure tack on another one into the codex release schedule, just to make everyone wait for yet more marine BS to slog through before they get updated for each new edition. For 9th it'll probably be something like

-Primaris Sang Guard and Dante+Sanguinor
-Primaris Blood Claws/Grey Hunters and Logan
-Primaris Ravenwing and Sammael
-Primaris DW vets and Artemis
-Primaris GK Strikes/Interceptors and Brother Captain

That's probably your standard "special snowflake edition" kit load.

Wonder how long it'll take to get through all the DW/SW/DA/BA/GK/DW crap this time round before a faction that was actually screwed over by 9th gets any attention like Eldar Dark Eldar Nids or GSC. I had a real fun time with my GSC playing in the index for a year and a fething half.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:18:01


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).
WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the number of datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.
And what did GW do to balance out the game after SM 2.0 codex ? They released PA, i.e. books that offer more strat, more relics, more rules and disciplines to all factions. Yes : every time a faction get X rules, the only way to balance out the game is to give the same number/quality of rules to all factions.


I didnt say it was the number of datasheets. I said it was the core rules. The basic game itself is the problem. Not the number of iterations of a individual mechanic one faction gets. Any faction based issues are an afterthought to the real problems with the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:19:08



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

They don't need to buy a few extra model, it's all primaris now, and they share the same models. Also, none of their current models aren't available to space wolves now.
Also the rules are closer, and you don't even need to buy the supplement to play space wolves.


Are you seriously not reading what you are writing ?

We already know there will be a space wolf supplement... so ya they ll need the supplement.
And fine, if they player doesnt want to buy some wulfen and maybe SW dread they ll just stick with their primaris...

The same player would have
bought the SW codex, kept their primaris v.s. bought the SW supplement and kept their primaris.

Stop making all of this circular. Your point doesnt stand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:34:02


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

   
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no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.
   
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 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 14:51:05


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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Its insanity that a SW player would look at all the primis stuff they have been getting access to and the. Say "we have only gotten 2 characters. Woop de doo!"


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

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 Lance845 wrote:
Its insanity that a SW player would look at all the primis stuff they have been getting access to and the. Say "we have only gotten 2 characters. Woop de doo!"
Most SW players don't want to play Terran Fursuiters, they want to play Space Wolves.

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or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.


Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:03:44



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?


fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.


You know, it's weird. My Evil Sunz orks could not work more differently than Goff orks - goffs are this huge green tide of melee-oriented footsloggers, with a hierarchy of boyz, nobz, meganobz, all the way up to big daddy ghazghkull thrakka, whereas Evil Sunz are a crazy mad max fury road army where your status is basically determined by whether you can afford your own vehicle, and if you can, how big that vehicle is.

In game, we are differentiated by

1) a clan trait
2) one warlord trait
3) one relic
4) one stratagem
5) one psychic power

And honestly? That's about what you need, because I've got this big army range, and I can go ahead and take Deffkilla wartrikes, buggies, trukks, wagons, etc and make a wonderful mad max ork army, while my buddy who plays goffs can use boyz, nobz, meganobz, waagh banners, ghazghkull, and walkers and we have two armies that are much, much, MUCH more distinct than an army with

Ultramarines tacticals, marneus calgar, chief librarian tigurius, tactical terminators, venerable dreadnoughts, marine bikers, assault marines, and devastators

and an army with

Space wolves grey hunters, logan grimnar, Njal Stormcaller, wolf guard terminators, space wolf dreadnought, swiftclaws, skyclaws, and long fangs

Even assuming (which I in no way believe) every single space wolf named character, datasheet and kit was IMMEDIATELY squatted and you were left only with the unique rules to differentiate yourself, you get:

1) a chapter trait
2) 6 warlord traits
3) A dozen odd stratagems? Honestly don't know. More than 1 for sure.
4) 6 relics
6) 6 psychic powers
7) Sagas?
8) Unique superdoctrine

If you look at all that, and you STILL go "but muh army isn't UNIQUE enough, they're basically just ultramarines wearing baby blue and who have replaced the stick up their butt with a tasteful furry tail plug!!!" then....I dunno, maybe your army wasn't really that distinct from UM in the first place? Maybe it was all just units with EXTREMELY MINOR wargear distinctions and stat distinctions shuffled around and given new names?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

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I don't think any of the Dark Eldar units have Shuriken stuff, and actually the only units to really share Power Weapons are HQ units. So you're wrong again!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?


fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.
Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.

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