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(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 LunarSol wrote:
So with Indomitor Teams nearly upon us, what are people thinking of making? The 5 Eradicator build seems a little overkill at this point; I'm kind of wondering if some version of this might work better:

3 HI Hellstorm
2 HI Heavy (Executor?)
2 Eradicator Heavy Melta
1 Eradicator Melta Rifle
2 Inceptors Plasma (Assualt?)

The right answer might just be to spit out Inceptors, but I don't feel like the Heavy Intercessors are quite as valuable as a tax to give another squad objective secured.


I think the Aquila/Malleus/Dominatus/e.t.c. designations are more important than ObSec. Re-rolling 1's to Wound is wonderful.

I'm really not a fan of any gun on the HI's except the Executor. That .ight just be me. We should always give one of them a heavy bolt weapon (unless stretched for points) so we can pop MW with the strat.

5 Eradicators will evaporate a lot, but it does mean you can just lean on that unit as anti-tank (and the HI are effectively ablative wounds). They want to shoot different targets though and you wouldn't want the HI's shooting something else to mess up the double-tap on the Eradicators so combat-squadding deserves serious consideration.

The value of Inceptors in the unit changes dramatically based on whalen combat squadding occurs (see previous post discussions).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:

5 Eradicators will evaporate a lot, but it does mean you can just lean on that unit as anti-tank (and the HI are effectively ablative wounds). They want to shoot different targets though and you wouldn't want the HI's shooting something else to mess up the double-tap on the Eradicators so combat-squadding deserves serious consideration.


I wouldnt sleep on the HI guns. No they're not going to bring down a Russ or Knight by themselves, but with wound reroll support they can do not insubstantial chip damage over the course of a game. Similarly, I know Eradicators are all the rage for what they can do against vehicles and monsters, but their versatility to terrify elite heavy infantry (Gravis, Terminators, Custodians, etc) is just as, if not more valuable in my view. The formation as a whole has an answer for most medium to large targets if you build for it.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I've very curious how Dark Angels and Death Guard affect the composition. They seem to really hurt the Executor and Plasma options in the middle and favor the Assault variants or the Eradicator damage.

The Executor is probably the gun I'm most leery of. I'm really not seeing its appeal over the Rapid Fire version.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 LunarSol wrote:
I've very curious how Dark Angels and Death Guard affect the composition. They seem to really hurt the Executor and Plasma options in the middle and favor the Assault variants or the Eradicator damage.

The Executor is probably the gun I'm most leery of. I'm really not seeing its appeal over the Rapid Fire version.


I'm with you on the Executor. It (and the Stalker on regular Intercessors) is hit very hard by -1 damage abilities. The Heavy Bolter variant of the Executor is a completely different story. That thing is exquisite. A real shame we cant take two per Indomitor team.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





It hadn’t really occurred to me but we get to take the Executor Heavy without having to take the Executors... that’s.... very nice.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





 LunarSol wrote:
It hadn’t really occurred to me but we get to take the Executor Heavy without having to take the Executors... that’s.... very nice.


Interesting, that's because, if I'm understanding how this works, we can run any mix of heavy rifles, then upgrade one to the heavy bolter version?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:

Interesting, that's because, if I'm understanding how this works, we can run any mix of heavy rifles, then upgrade one to the heavy bolter version?


We can. Note, this is specific to the Indomitor Kill Team, not a blanket carveout for the Heavy Intercessor datasheet. Minor nuance detail, but potentially important when you're building lists.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Right, so the two rules on the unit boil down to this:

- You can replace everyone's rifle with a set of a different kind of rifles
- You can replace 1:5 rifles of a specific type with a heavy weapon of the matching type.

This means that normally, everyone has the same weapon, meaning the heavy weapon has to match the weapons of the rest of the squad. Note that you can't do the first replace if you've already put a Heavy Bolter on the unit specifically so you can't do that first, then swap all the Heavy Bolt Rifles for Hellstorm Rifles.... normally.

The Indomintor Killteam adds a third option to the list though that's essentially, you can replace individual rifles with whatever rifle you choose. This means that we can pick the weapons freely and for example, make 4 Hellstorm rifles and give the 5th guy an Executor. We can THEN replace the Executor on that one guy with a Heavy Executor, despite the rest of the unit being Hellstorm.
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

Early days, but my thoughts on Indomitor team's I'd fancy trying out:

Codex marines +1
Spoiler:
5 man squad taking the best pick and mix heavy bolt rifle variants to be more flexible than the standard codex heavy intercessor squad with no downside.
4 Hellstorm bolt rifles
1 Executor heavy bolter

Eradicators & elite hunters
Spoiler:
Would be more likely to try this if combat squad/deep strike is cleaned up. Possibly a good candidate for dominatus discipline (they probably don't need help on taking down tanks)
Combat sqaud 1 (would like to DS)
1 Hellstorm bolt rifle
4 Melta rifles

Combat squad 2 (would like to not DS if possible, plan on using this as just a better vanilla heavy intercessor unit, sit on an objective and hide a good gun inside)
3 Hellstorm bolt rifles (maybe just maybe executor rifles might work here)
1 Executor heavy bolter
1 Multi melta

Chonky boys
Spoiler:
To either deepstrike or beacon into place, and slap with every buff I can. Fortified by contempt/Premorphic resonance plus litanies and just get stuck in.
5 Hellstorm bolt rifles
5 Boltstorm aggressors
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I'd rather take the basic Heavy Rifle over the Executor personally. Bolter Discipline and all.

Also, post nerf, the basic Melta Rifles are really underwhelming since you can't assault and double tap anymore. Still more mobile, but its a huge drop in firepower to assault.

I'm curious how the Aggressors might play out. Their melee punch is really their only adavantage over Inceptors.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards:

4 Hellstorm
1 Executor Heavy Bolter
1 Multi Melta
2 Heavy Melta Rifles

From there I'm a bit uncertain. Probably some combination of 2 Assault Inceptors or 1 Inceptor and either another Eradicator of either type. Not sure if the Heavy Bolter is actually making the team less capable of Combat squading for the points though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/25 18:28:03


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

Yeah, melta rifles vs heavy melta rifles is a tough one, I may just be putting too much weighting on accuracy as they would likely be away from auras. I'm looking at the multi melta though as more of an opportunity to combat squad than a hindrance, sticking the multi in another unit separate from other eradicators seems like the ideal elite hunter as it would drop 4 shots on it's own against anything (nicely complimenting whatever heavy bolter type is accompanying).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Y'all know my stance on Eradicators (HMR + Multimelta or bust), but something to consider at their new price point...

An HMR Eradicator is 55 points.

A CML Terminator is 53 points.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think there's definite game with Terminators. In terms of raw output, 6 missiles and 10 rapid fire shots that can deepstrike is not something to overlook.
   
Made in us
Xenohunter Acolyte with Alacrity





Sterling191 wrote:
Y'all know my stance on Eradicators (HMR + Multimelta or bust), but something to consider at their new price point...

An HMR Eradicator is 55 points.

A CML Terminator is 53 points.


Isn't the Eradicator 50 points? 45 base +5 for the rifle? What am I missing?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vilgeir wrote:

Isn't the Eradicator 50 points? 45 base +5 for the rifle? What am I missing?


Just missing me being a transposition potato. Your points tallies are correct.

Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.
   
Made in us
Xenohunter Acolyte with Alacrity





Sterling191 wrote:
 Vilgeir wrote:

Isn't the Eradicator 50 points? 45 base +5 for the rifle? What am I missing?


Just missing me being a transposition potato. Your points tallies are correct.

Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.


Oh yes, yes, I see what you mean. That's a pretty cool unit, too, and I'm all about that rule of cool.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.


I really like the Cyclone Termies (I often run them with TH/SS in addition for better protection), but their firepower is way inferior to Eradicators - double tapping 2 shots with -4 and D6+2 D makes more than up for the longer range, even if you factor in that the ERadicators will usually have a -1 to hit, whereas the termies could stand still more often because of their superior range - so basically the main argument for the termies is the (in my opinion) better (more versatile) kill team they come with and the improved staying power.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bossdoc wrote:

I really like the Cyclone Termies (I often run them with TH/SS in addition for better protection), but their firepower is way inferior to Eradicators - double tapping 2 shots with -4 and D6+2 D makes more than up for the longer range, even if you factor in that the ERadicators will usually have a -1 to hit, whereas the termies could stand still more often because of their superior range - so basically the main argument for the termies is the (in my opinion) better (more versatile) kill team they come with and the improved staying power.


Hard disagree with your conclusion, but I think we're on the same page in terms of the underlying utilization. CMLs are volume of fire identical, are vastly easier to support with shooting boosting abilities, and most importantly do not require the unit to put every shot into a single target. That's before adding in the melee capacity, the additional bolter shots, and the simple fact that you need to dig through as many as seven storm shields (almost certainly behind a 5-6+++) to begin to ablate their output.

Eradicators definitely have their place in a Deatwatch force (generally sprinkled into Indomitor teams in my opinion), but they dont come close to doing for a unit what a Terminator can. Paradoxically enough, anti-tank doesnt need the 4-5 AP that elite infantry hunting in 9th really relies on, and that's about the only area that Eradicators significantly outperform Terminators.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/01 20:18:00


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Hi, I think I've already said that my Deathwatch army is going to be leaning slightly towards rule of cool rather than straight up competitive (although anything loyalist marine is never going to be trash right now).
I'd like to utilise some of the exclusive DW weapons so just wondered what the best way to use them was?

Xenophase blade seems great on a watch sergeant especially mastercrafted. I think i'm pretty comfortable with that choice.

I was thinking about giving a black shield a heavy thunder hammer due to the 3 attacks base and 2+ to hit but then you miss out on the extra 2 attacks from carrying 2 weapons and I'm struggling to overlook the possibility of a quite frankly disgusting 7 attacks with lightning claws! are the heavy thunder hammers still worth it on a regular veteran or should i just leave it at home?

How about the frag cannon and infernus? I remember the frag cannon being incredible a couple of years back but now it seems like a short range autocannon. As i write this i just noticed it's assault though so for a large chunck of the game it's gonna be -3ap which suddenly seems much more appealing!

I'm planning on leaning mostly into Primaris for this army so will probably only be building maybe around 10-15 deathwatch vets so i'd like to make sure I get their loadout pretty much on point. Thanks!

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




HTHs tucked into the otherwise usual pod of VanVets (LC/SS) can make for a disrupter unit that punches well above it's weight (which VanVets can already do scarily well). I dont rate them quite as highly in Proteus KTs, mostly because you either have to give up the weight of attacks that a Blackshield can put out or give up the shooting from a Vet.

That said, I wouldnt bet against them in that formation either.

With regards to the Infernus and Frag, they're just too damn pricey in my mind, and most importantly dont let you take a melee weapon or shield.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Coming from playing Death Guard, the frag at 10pts initially seems very comparable to the blight launcher which is pretty much the best special weapon we can take.
Appreciate they're not a straight comparison as DG aren't generally putting out large amounts of firepower and the -1T etc

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I can see the comparison and will fully admit that I've never been a fan of Frags in any edition which may be clouding my judgement on this, but a blight launcher doesnt preclude a plague marine from getting its defensive buffs. The opportunity cost for a Frag in relationship to what it does for the squad just doesnt cut it in my book, especially with standard plasma guns or combi-flamers at half the cost and leaving a hand free for a shield or melee weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/13 00:36:57


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




are the heavy thunder hammers still worth it on a regular veteran or should i just leave it at home


Standard loadout for my proteus sergeants - especially since the HTH does not prevent the sergeant from taking a combat shield, which adds at least some resilience... My blackshields usually come along with LC/PF or TH/CS - 5 heavy hitting attacks on 3+ and 1 softer attack for about same points cost...
As regarding DW special weapons, I usually try to get one of each in my list - the only one that's not really competitive is the shotgun (the gun actually is quite ok, but the loss of a side arm/ ss disqualifies it for competitive play in my opinion). Stalker Bolters work rather ok in combination with Cyclone terminators for fire support, the frag is decent for mid-field units, with 2 shots even at 24" and 2 D without risk, imho it's superior to the plasma in that role. Inferno Bolter has decent output but seems to be harder to fit into my lists - sometimes I run it out of a corvus but usually I don't have those points to spare. Xenophase blade usually goes on a jump captain with masterworked and sword of the imperium - nice character hunter.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bossdoc wrote:

Standard loadout for my proteus sergeants - especially since the HTH does not prevent the sergeant from taking a combat shield, which adds at least some resilience... My blackshields usually come along with LC/PF or TH/CS - 5 heavy hitting attacks on 3+ and 1 softer attack for about same points cost...


I'm a big fan of the LC/PF and LC/TH configurations for blackshields. You're basically looking at a Company Champion level duelist at 40 points who can tuck into a Proteus team for protection while giving the squad the capacity to HI (it's coming up more often in 9th now, especially with the need to charge opponents off objectives) and posing an existential threat to both big and small targets.

Bossdoc wrote:
Stalker Bolters work rather ok in combination with Cyclone terminators for fire support


I always find myself struggling to pick between Stalkers and a basic Bolter/Shield combo for backline CML teams. The former is unquestionably better against harder targets (AP2-3 at Damage 3 is no joke), but SIA with bolter discipline plus the defensive benefits of the shields to help protect the CML termies is just as potent. It's a real goddamn shame we can't take shields and Stalkers anymore.

Bossdoc wrote:
Xenophase blade usually goes on a jump captain with masterworked and sword of the imperium - nice character hunter.


Deathwatch Slash captain is not to be trifled with, and I think is one of the scariest headhunters Marines as a whole can currently field with the possible exception of a tooled up BA duelist. Inherently nulling invulns and scything through anything that isn't a 2+ armor save is terrifying against a ton of armies.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




I always find myself struggling to pick between Stalkers and a basic Bolter/Shield combo for backline CML teams. The former is unquestionably better against harder targets (AP2-3 at Damage 3 is no joke), but SIA with bolter discipline plus the defensive benefits of the shields to help protect the CML termies is just as potent.


Weel, since my most regular opponent is testing the new death guard rules at the moment, I started mixing stalker bolter in, whereas before I usally run only bolter/shield with the termies. I also found that TH/SS is a great combination with the cyclone and seems legal at the moment - the increased durability with a 3+ against e.g. lascannons when in cover is easily worth 10 points.

It's a real goddamn shame we can't take shields and Stalkers anymore.


I think I have no other army where weapon layouts changed so often in such short times - and I'm playing since rogue trader... Fortunately I'm a really lazy painter so at least I don't have to break painted models for every new deathwatch codex...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bossdoc wrote:

Weel, since my most regular opponent is testing the new death guard rules at the moment, I started mixing stalker bolter in, whereas before I usally run only bolter/shield with the termies. I also found that TH/SS is a great combination with the cyclone and seems legal at the moment - the increased durability with a 3+ against e.g. lascannons when in cover is easily worth 10 points.


For sure, matchup / local meta dependent things like that are always going to inform wargear choices, especially for a force that thrives on loadout flexibility as much as DW does. Needing to punch through a -1 damage malus makes the baseline SBG considerably more appealing.

I *really* wish we could customize the Terminator loadout similar to how Wolf Guard can. CML + SB + SS for daaaaaaaaaaaays

Bossdoc wrote:

I think I have no other army where weapon layouts changed so often in such short times - and I'm playing since rogue trader... Fortunately I'm a really lazy painter so at least I don't have to break painted models for every new deathwatch codex...


I know the feeling. My entire collection is heavily converted, done purely for ROC, and militantly anti-WISYWYG so I'm not one who goes around needing to hack apart models with each new edition or FAQ, but it's still just annoying that certain things can't done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/13 19:28:54


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Managed to get a couple of games in playing DW on TTS which has solidified some of my ideas and helped me work out what units i want to build up. It's hard work keeping up with all the rules and moving pieces but I've never played any type of loyalist marines so I've got 1.5 codexes to learn from scratch basically. The hardest is keeping track of the different loadouts in my kill teams and deciding who to take saves on/who to kill off.

The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!

Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:

The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!


My personal bias on the Corvus is to use it purely as a gunship if you're dead set on running it. Between Teleportarium, Reserves, the Beacon and a few other tricks we don't really need flyer transports. 185 points (don't pay for the Hurricanes, but absolutely go for the Auspex) for a distraction carnifex is a reasonable price, especially when you can guarantee it survives T1. Use the threat of a bombing run and character sniping to your advantage, and just lob Lascannon and Stormstrike shots downrange. Somewhat scarier since we can time when Devastator doctrine goes off to help line up juicy AP 4 shots.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?


Thought about VanVets for your melee? They're mobile enough to get a T2 Chappy boosted charge off nearly all the time, and survivable enough to really make a mess of things they tag. They can also pinch hit really well as White Scars. Tuck a HTH on the Sarge and the squad can punch surprisingly well above its weight.

One of the areas I havent really seen explored yet (and it's one big category of lists I've got squirreled away for when I can play in-person again) is going deep on DW's ability to be a mobile melee oriented army with fire support elements. With Bolter+CS vets being costwise identical to Intercessors but effectively better in every possible way (barring double tapping in shooting, which nobody uses anyway), the capacity to field T5 2+/4++ Bike/VanVet obsec disruption teams alongside traditional VanVet formations and access to not insignificant force multiplier abilities in things like the Aegis, the Tome and two frankly really good Psyker disciplines (yes, DA get better, but ours is still surprisingly potent) there's definitely ways to lean in on the way 9th wants its armies to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/15 14:44:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The main limitation is our ability to deliver the punch. In 9th, the dangerous CC armies are mostly about abusing fast things that can advance and charge army wide which we really can't manage. Most of our fast delivery is limited to Deep Strike style options that can't be delivered reliably en masse.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Sterling191 wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:

The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!


My personal bias on the Corvus is to use it purely as a gunship if you're dead set on running it. Between Teleportarium, Reserves, the Beacon and a few other tricks we don't really need flyer transports. 185 points (don't pay for the Hurricanes, but absolutely go for the Auspex) for a distraction carnifex is a reasonable price, especially when you can guarantee it survives T1. Use the threat of a bombing run and character sniping to your advantage, and just lob Lascannon and Stormstrike shots downrange. Somewhat scarier since we can time when Devastator doctrine goes off to help line up juicy AP 4 shots.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?


Thought about VanVets for your melee? They're mobile enough to get a T2 Chappy boosted charge off nearly all the time, and survivable enough to really make a mess of things they tag. They can also pinch hit really well as White Scars. Tuck a HTH on the Sarge and the squad can punch surprisingly well above its weight.

One of the areas I havent really seen explored yet (and it's one big category of lists I've got squirreled away for when I can play in-person again) is going deep on DW's ability to be a mobile melee oriented army with fire support elements. With Bolter+CS vets being costwise identical to Intercessors but effectively better in every possible way (barring double tapping in shooting, which nobody uses anyway), the capacity to field T5 2+/4++ Bike/VanVet obsec disruption teams alongside traditional VanVet formations and access to not insignificant force multiplier abilities in things like the Aegis, the Tome and two frankly really good Psyker disciplines (yes, DA get better, but ours is still surprisingly potent) there's definitely ways to lean in on the way 9th wants its armies to play.


Yeh thanks, I'll try running the Corvus as a gunship and see how it does and yeh 15pts for 3 combibolters can do one lol.

If i can keep it at range for the first turn or two it should be able to avoid the melta spam we seem to be seeing in 9th and hopefully become more survivable as the game goes on. With no transport load it'll be less of a target too i guess. It just occurred to me actually that I can put it in hover first turn and pop the strat and it doesn't matter about losing the hard to hit as it will be untargetable.

My list at the moment is taking three big and expensive kill teams and putting WWSWF on them. So far I've scored 10pts each game for it. I have an Indomitor kill team that i combat squad, a Fortis of bikes and ints that i tend to protect with 5++ relic and 5+++ psychic and then just try to keep units topped up with the apothecary.

I've got VanVets in my Proteus kill team but not a separate unit, no jump packs either due to room in the Corvus. My Proteus team consists of the following:
Serg with MC xenohase & SS
4x DW Vets with bolter & SS
2x VanVets with claw & SS
Terminator with Pair of claws
Terminator with TH & SS
Blackshield with HTH

I'm a little loathe to go much beyond the Proteus kill team with firstborn options tbh, I'm converting them from Primaris and while I think it makes sense all contained in one unique unit, I think it'll start getting weird if i have other firstborn units. I'm not planning on taking this army to competitions as this is more of a rule of cool army but at the same time i don't want to cause undue confusion for opponents...


   
 
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