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I am increasingly thinking the reason the Pentagon is willing to allow the public to speculate that these are maybe aliens! who knows? is because that fun, splashy, news-grabbing idea allows them to distract from how badly they are being outpaced in drone tech by other (hostile) countries.

"We currently lack data to indicate any UAP are part of a foreign collection program or indicative of a major technological advancement by a potential adversary."

Meanwhile, Iran has developed suicide drones that cannot be functionally tracked. Intelligence failures and domestic weapon system development incompetencies make for much less fun headlines.

Cronch wrote:

Why are aliens so clearly obsessed with the USA and the UK?

Maybe because you don't get disappeared for seeing something strange, and people don't assume that it's some religious phenomena? Try overlaying sightings of 'spirits' or 'angels' and see if that clears things up.

 kodos wrote:
So the Pentagon Report left us with ~100 sightings since 2004 that fall under different categories like foreign projects, us or private projects, animals/garbage/natural and "other"

18 sightings were marked as "other"

Not exactly. These are sightings that they 'could be' those things, but are not provable. The 18 that 'cannot be any of them' are somewhat more disturbing.

Cronch wrote:
I've got a more pressing issue

Why are aliens so clearly obsessed with the USA and the UK?

A couple of possibilities come to mind - one would be a guess that the data in that map comes from FBI records, which would have more data from the US and UK than anywhere else. The other would be that people in the UK and US might just be more likely to report seeing unidentified things in the sky thanks to pop culture influences, where a very large chunk of the rest of the world would just say 'Huh, that's weird' and get on with their life.

 Pacific wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Agreed. If there's any nation on earth with the resources and desire to do this, then it's the Russians.
.

There was a report by someone from Janes (the defense analyst people) a few months ago that was saying there is a strong possibility that China has now overtaken Russia in some areas of avionics and cutting-edge fighter technology.

They're also spending vastly more money than Russia on their military, some $250 billion vs. $70 billion of Russia.

While I've certainly no basis to argue with that idea, I'd also be slightly dubious of just raw numbers like that, I'd also like to see a "on what" as well as how much.

As to the map, it looks curiously like a population density map, where there are disparities I'd suggest there may be cultural or technical reasons why incidents go unreported.

I suspect there may be some cherry picking as to what counts, also. I remember a stream of international news stories of sightings in Russia/the former Soviet Union back in the 90’s. For a while they were supposedly having more sightings than the US, or so those cable “sightings” documentaries said. You’re not saying Jonathan Frakes was lying to me, are you?


Edit:
Dammit, Frakes!

Ouze wrote:
Meanwhile, Iran has developed suicide drones that cannot be functionally tracked. Intelligence failures and domestic weapon system development incompetencies make for much less fun headlines.

Meanwhile the US has had these for decades. I highly doubt these ufo/uaps that out perform US fighters, and baffle seasoned combat pilots are Russians, especially not the Chinese, or any terrestrial power.

Cronch wrote:
I've got a more pressing issue

Why are aliens so clearly obsessed with the USA and the UK?

If I was a betting man, I'd say it's because the US was the first to make and deploy a nuclear bomb. I don't trust this map, as Russia had rashes of sightings during the cold war as well. And UFO activity seemed to spike in the fifties through the 80s. When nuclear weapons were the forefront concern. As well as the space race, which any ET would probably take in to observe with great academic interest and curiosity. (Or as I mentioned earlier, the same interest we have in Animal Planet.)

Also the timeline is missing the Rendlesham Forest Incident.

How can it be considered anything like complete and not have Rendlesham Forest?

Ufo as in unidentified flying object? Yes.

Ufo as in grey-skinned aliens visiting Earth. Nope.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
*snip* As well as the space race, which any ET would probably take in to observe with great academic interest and curiosity. (Or as I mentioned earlier, the same interest we have in Animal Planet.)

I was listening to quite an interesting podcast with Neil DeGrasse Tyson (the scientist) and Sam Harris a few days ago. One of the topics that touched on this was about genetic/DNA difference between human beings and chimps. The genetic difference is tiny (less than 1%) but look what that difference can account for. A chimp can just about use a tool to get to some food (poke a grub out of a tree with a stick), human beings are constructing buildings a KM tall and have travelled to other planetary bodies.
So, imagining the whole, vast cornucopia of how life can develop (and this is another question) what might a 4 or even 5% difference in DNA look like?

This is one of the potential solutions (or perhaps explanations) to the Fermi paradox. Why haven't they reached out and contacted us? Anything that is capable of travelling the gulf between stars is stepping over us and ignoring our lives as something that is completely inconsequential and of no interest. In the same way that most of us step over a worm or an insect, perhaps without evening knowing it is there or noticing. I guess in that scenario you might have the odd Entomologist !

Don't forget it also took us a very very long time to go from sticks and stones to building. There are clearly gateway understandings which hold back development and gateway communication methods that mean any individual development can be shared with the group.


It might be that part of our very rapid advance in technology wasn't so much that we got smarter, but that we developed a means to communicate which allowed us to exchange ideas and thoughts in such a way that we could basically share those ideas and discoveries and bounce ideas off each other and take those basic ideas further.

Much like how many animals can show surprising levels of skill when taught* to perform actions or tricks that we teach them. Or even work out complex puzzles and tricks.


*deliberately not using the word trained because that tends to come pre-loaded with assumptions

 Overread wrote:
Don't forget it also took us a very very long time to go from sticks and stones to building. There are clearly gateway understandings which hold back development and gateway communication methods that mean any individual development can be shared with the group.


It might be that part of our very rapid advance in technology wasn't so much that we got smarter, but that we developed a means to communicate which allowed us to exchange ideas and thoughts in such a way that we could basically share those ideas and discoveries and bounce ideas off each other and take those basic ideas further.

Much like how many animals can show surprising levels of skill when taught* to perform actions or tricks that we teach them. Or even work out complex puzzles and tricks.


*deliberately not using the word trained because that tends to come pre-loaded with assumptions

Wouldn't it be funny if we were the galactic equivalent of a hive mind due to our communicative powers and social structure? I read a similar perspective shift once about humans being super-regenerative nutters by an alien perspective. 'Humans are space orcs' or somesuch.

Hah very cool and yes its amazing how putting a different perspective and spin on things can change the impression.


I also forgot to mention there's also gateway morphology - hands are freaking amazing; as is having a skeletal and muscular structure that allows us to put them to good use. Dolphins or Whales could be eventually proven to be as smart as people, but they would have a hard time building anything because of their lack of hands to really manipulate their environment as we can.

 Overread wrote:
Hah very cool and yes its amazing how putting a different perspective and spin on things can change the impression.


I also forgot to mention there's also gateway morphology - hands are freaking amazing; as is having a skeletal and muscular structure that allows us to put them to good use. Dolphins or Whales could be eventually proven to be as smart as people, but they would have a hard time building anything because of their lack of hands to really manipulate their environment as we can.

I've seen it in some videos that only Octopi and Parrots have the dexterity to match human tool use. Even chimps are too clumsy and lack the dexterity in their hands to really take advantage of their intelligence. Mainly down to them being only able to move their hands forward and backwards and not also side to side. Octopi obviously have 8 limbs which don't really have any limits on their ability to manipulate. Parrots have a similar range of motion on their feet as we do with our hands so they are capable of complex motions with their feet.

 Pacific wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
*snip* As well as the space race, which any ET would probably take in to observe with great academic interest and curiosity. (Or as I mentioned earlier, the same interest we have in Animal Planet.)

I was listening to quite an interesting podcast with Neil DeGrasse Tyson (the scientist) and Sam Harris a few days ago. One of the topics that touched on this was about genetic/DNA difference between human beings and chimps. The genetic difference is tiny (less than 1%) but look what that difference can account for. A chimp can just about use a tool to get to some food (poke a grub out of a tree with a stick), human beings are constructing buildings a KM tall and have travelled to other planetary bodies.
So, imagining the whole, vast cornucopia of how life can develop (and this is another question) what might a 4 or even 5% difference in DNA look like?

This is one of the potential solutions (or perhaps explanations) to the Fermi paradox. Why haven't they reached out and contacted us? Anything that is capable of travelling the gulf between stars is stepping over us and ignoring our lives as something that is completely inconsequential and of no interest. In the same way that most of us step over a worm or an insect, perhaps without evening knowing it is there or noticing. I guess in that scenario you might have the odd Entomologist !

I've seen the theory that if an artificial intelligence existed that was several levels above our intelligence, we wouldn't necessarily be able to perceive it. An ant doesn't really perceive human culture, technology, etc. beyond more big animals and objects in its environment. An hyperadvanced AI could be operating around us in very powerful ways that might still be very subtle to us.

A few (ok perhaps 10) years back there was a film where the premise the lead actor was a life long reality TV star without realising it. Every day of his life was crafted around him being on TV with hidden cameras and all and him totally unaware.

The ultimate Big Brother entertainment.

So in fairness not only could aliens or super advanced AI be watching our every move in ways we cannot perceive; we could equally be in a reality TV show. Or at least I could since I know I'm not running a TV show which would mean the rest of you are all actors!

 Overread wrote:
A few (ok perhaps 10) years back there was a film where the premise the lead actor was a life long reality TV star without realising it. Every day of his life was crafted around him being on TV with hidden cameras and all and him totally unaware.

The ultimate Big Brother entertainment.

So in fairness not only could aliens or super advanced AI be watching our every move in ways we cannot perceive; we could equally be in a reality TV show. Or at least I could since I know I'm not running a TV show which would mean the rest of you are all actors!

SO.......while i have no problem believing in the existence of alien society.... i may have a bit of an issue thinking its all some kind of Truman Show setup

I have trouble thinking anyone thinks The Truman Show was 10 years ago!

But the 90s were only 10 years ago
or so...



..roughly




with a bit of rounding

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Hah very cool and yes its amazing how putting a different perspective and spin on things can change the impression.


I also forgot to mention there's also gateway morphology - hands are freaking amazing; as is having a skeletal and muscular structure that allows us to put them to good use. Dolphins or Whales could be eventually proven to be as smart as people, but they would have a hard time building anything because of their lack of hands to really manipulate their environment as we can.

I've seen it in some videos that only Octopi and Parrots have the dexterity to match human tool use. Even chimps are too clumsy and lack the dexterity in their hands to really take advantage of their intelligence. Mainly down to them being only able to move their hands forward and backwards and not also side to side. Octopi obviously have 8 limbs which don't really have any limits on their ability to manipulate. Parrots have a similar range of motion on their feet as we do with our hands so they are capable of complex motions with their feet.

There is also the added issue of scale and need. We know some parrots are perfectly capable of learning other languages (human in this case) and communicating. We know they can solve puzzles (even on their own, without humans to show them how). But flight is such an incredibly useful trait that evolving away from it just to make better sticks would be a huge evolutionary gamble. Intelligence is NOT the goal of evolution. Likewise elephants- they are, for all intents, aliens with their own social structures, clans and (far as we can tell) beliefs. But they also have damn little in the way of natural predators, they would not benefit much more from say, getting smaller to feed larger brain.

No, elephants are evolving smaller tusks which should make them less vulnerable to poaching.

Also, dint think parrots can "learn other languages" any more than dogs can. What they are is excellent mimics who can connect making a specific sound with a specific outcome. That's not the same as understanding what they are saying.

Well obviously, humans are excellent mimics that connect making specific sounds to specific outcome, it's literally how language works.
We have all the proof in Alex the grey parrot, but a lot of people prefer to think they're "just" mimicking noises, because the idea that some other animal can communicate thoughts is offensive. We're surrounded by aliens, but we prefer to turn them into aphrodisiacs or destroy their habitat, no wonder no one bothers picking up our calls in the universe (if space aliens do exist).

You're conflating "species" with "alien."

Let me know the next time a parrot writes a short story, a poem or even a shopping list and I'll believe they actually understand other species' languages.

Even the guy who trained Alex didn't claim he was using language as understood between humans.

The issue with animal language is developing common means to comprehend one another and to then increase that level of comprehension on both sides to increase the depth of the language.

The problem is there are fundamental barriers. For example hearing is different species to species, so vocal inflections we can hear others might not; and vis versa. Physical language is the same and many animals use a complex mix of audio, physical and scent based communication. Heck we use those 3 as well, but we often only think of the audio. Body language is a skill we don't develop to a high degree in general (its there and is used but its a specialist skill).


There's interesting experiments with animals using buttons whereby pressing specific buttons yields a specific reward for the animal which can be then used to train a level of communication. Eg a cat can ask for treats or pets. A higher level allows for the concepts of now and later etc...



It's honestly an area of science and understanding that we are only now just starting to really appreciate. Even with individual animals and humans that have bridged the gap more than the normal, its still been the exception rather than the rule. We talk of people like "horse whisperers" and such and treat it like a mythical skill rather than one which can be studied, interpreted and taught.




Heck even within subjects of our "own creation" like art we have the same. There are generations who have grown up with the idea of art being a thing you're "born with the eye for" rather than a subject one can learn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Even the guy who trained Alex didn't claim he was using language as understood between humans.

Agreed, we are a long way if ever from a point where animals can interpret human language at a higher level ;but we might get to a point where humans (perhaps with computer aid) can learn animal language to a higher level .OF course this won't suddenly mean animals start acting like they do in cartoons. They will still be what they are, but it might allow for a greater level of comprehension.

"Teach a lion to speak like a man, and you still won't understand a thing he has to say."

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/navy-ships-swarmed-by-drones-not-ufos-defense-officials-confirm

As I said, they're drones. Or at least these were, but im willing to bet more time spent studying other incidents and events will reveal that they are mostly explainable within the parameters of existing technical knowledge and the majority of their ability to "defy the laws of physics" are the result of electronic warfare technologies combined with atypical and unexpected propulsion systems/design features

There are some really impressive drone displays now that you can see happening around the world. Fleets/swarms of drones creating light patterns in the sky.

Can’t wait for the Conspirasphere’s nonsense to dribble down on this one!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can’t wait for the Conspirasphere’s nonsense to dribble down on this one!

The what now ?

 Overread wrote:
A few (ok perhaps 10) years back there was a film where the premise the lead actor was a life long reality TV star without realising it. Every day of his life was crafted around him being on TV with hidden cameras and all and him totally unaware.

The ultimate Big Brother entertainment.

So in fairness not only could aliens or super advanced AI be watching our every move in ways we cannot perceive; we could equally be in a reality TV show. Or at least I could since I know I'm not running a TV show which would mean the rest of you are all actors!

Literally an episode of South Park


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
*snip* As well as the space race, which any ET would probably take in to observe with great academic interest and curiosity. (Or as I mentioned earlier, the same interest we have in Animal Planet.)

I was listening to quite an interesting podcast with Neil DeGrasse Tyson (the scientist) and Sam Harris a few days ago. One of the topics that touched on this was about genetic/DNA difference between human beings and chimps. The genetic difference is tiny (less than 1%) but look what that difference can account for. A chimp can just about use a tool to get to some food (poke a grub out of a tree with a stick), human beings are constructing buildings a KM tall and have travelled to other planetary bodies.
So, imagining the whole, vast cornucopia of how life can develop (and this is another question) what might a 4 or even 5% difference in DNA look like?

This is one of the potential solutions (or perhaps explanations) to the Fermi paradox. Why haven't they reached out and contacted us? Anything that is capable of travelling the gulf between stars is stepping over us and ignoring our lives as something that is completely inconsequential and of no interest. In the same way that most of us step over a worm or an insect, perhaps without evening knowing it is there or noticing. I guess in that scenario you might have the odd Entomologist !

The Fermi paradox is the logical equivalent of swiss cheese anyways. The basic premise is more or less a slippery slope fallacy, relying on assumption within assumption within... etc. It floors me that something so unscientific could even be considered as valid by the scientific community.

Something on the recent hearings on the subject.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1099410910/ufo-hearing-congress-military-intelligence