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Regular Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Lets take a real world regime that is near Fascism and Catholic rigorism... both of which are heavy inspiration for the IOM... Franco´s Spain.

Those this mean that the IOM is a sci-fi space version of Franco´s Spain? ... not at all.

Satirical fiction and political science are not the same medium.

The tone of 40K should be as satirical as possible... obviously you cant remain as edgy as in the 80´s, but dont pretend either that the 40K setting is something that can be taken with a full straight face.


I'm glad to see a common shorthand for "brutal totalitarian regime that habitually commits war crimes and treats its people as expendable resources" has prompted so much discussion on whether the specific term "fascism" is technically accurate.


The term fascism in it self is very problematic both in academic and common live use. This has always been the case but it is even more problematic today.

Which shouldnt surprise anyone since in many parts of the world today we have very storng extreme right wing political movements that at least share some of the most prominent elements of classical fascism (even doe they dont self describe as fascist nor are a carbon copy of the 30´s fascist regimes).
   
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Nobody is saying the Imperium is 100% good. In fact all sides are bad. It is a grim dark setting after all. Most of the aliens are racists or evil too. Don't necrons view things that way and previously they were soulless robots. Eldar view other species as lesser and sacrifice millions or billions to save a handful of their own. Dark eldar torture others to extend their life and have husks for souls. Nids are just hungry. Tau have a lot more subtlety with their mind control, brainwashing and castration of some citizens. Chaos is basically selling your soul for power and is in many ways self destructive and does a lot of awful stuff.

Oh and orks just have fun fighting and killing everything.

Everything in the universe of 40k is bad or violent or just about.

-----
@matoro99: did you see my suggestion earlier a post or two ago?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 19:10:50


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't know how it is nowadays, but my professors told me not to use wikipedia as a primary source and to dig deeper. I take it my teachers were in poor form?
Emphasis on primary source. Wikipedia *is* incredibly useful in academic work as a repository for other primary sources. Yes, never cite your work as coming from Wikipedia, but you'd be foolish if you didn't see the use of Wikipedia in locating primary sources which you *can* quote from.

I don't think people in this thread are claiming to use Wikipedia as a primary source, only that dismissing it "because Wikipedia" is equally myopic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 20:02:22



They/them

 
   
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In response to a subthread that started out with a poster who had not done any source reading citing "somebody told me" as a basis from which to argue with the scholarship and spawned such spicy takes as "No True Fascism" no less...

All that said, I think that how the game's various media *addresses* the spectre of fascism and other authoritarianism is pretty important to hitting the right tone for 40k in terms of whether it's doing something interesting and subversive, or just pedalling Triumph Of The Will nazi tripe in spaaaace.
   
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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Eldar view other species as lesser and sacrifice millions or billions to save a handful of their own.

So does the Imperium.
Dark eldar torture others to extend their life and have husks for souls.

So does the Imperium. How many people are sacrificed daily to fuel the Emperors chair?
Tau have a lot more subtlety with their mind control, brainwashing and castration of some citizens.

The Imperium also does all of this.
Chaos is basically selling your soul for power and is in many ways self destructive and does a lot of awful stuff.

See Space Marines. Also, the Inquisition.

So everything bad that the other species in 40k do, the Imperium does on top of all of the other awful stuff it does. It is effectively the combination of all of the bad traits of every other species in the setting, plus some extra on top.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 20:51:18


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There is no good/pure faction in 40k, and that is the tone, and the tone that should be maintained, with it's injections of satirical humour here and there. The best human characters the lore has ever created are all flawed anti-heroes who are guaranteed to cross the line.

The imperium is arguably the worst faction, though in regards to the best of the rest, it is not the Eldar or the Tau. The Eldar because they are just as fascist as the imperium, whilst the tau's experimentation on their own populace is only not on par with the imperium due to not having the same amount of population.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Eldar view other species as lesser and sacrifice millions or billions to save a handful of their own.

So does the Imperium.

Orks view every other species as guys worth fightin'. Except when they are weedy, then they are enslaved or killed or blown up.

Dark eldar torture others to extend their life and have husks for souls.

So does the Imperium. How many people are sacrificed daily to fuel the Emperors chair?

Orks fight and kill each other when bored or for other trivial reasons. They also like to sacrifice others to see if a new gubbin' works or just for the explosion.

Tau have a lot more subtlety with their mind control, brainwashing and castration of some citizens.

The Imperium also does all of this.

If you don't listen to your boss, he will punch you in the face or stomp on your head.

Chaos is basically selling your soul for power and is in many ways self destructive and does a lot of awful stuff.

See Space Marines. Also, the Inquisition.

Orks are self-destructive to go fasta, fly higher, have more dakka or get more scrap. Also their psykers (and vehicles, some guns and also some melee weapons) can pretty much explode at any moment and are just roughly pointed in the correct direction.

So everything bad that the other species in 40k do, the Imperium does on top of all of the other awful stuff it does. It is effectively the combination of all of the bad traits of every other species in the setting, plus some extra on top.

So do orks. Except they are doing it for their enjoyment.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Labelling everything in 40k as 'fascist' is remarkably reductive.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Labelling everything in 40k as 'fascist' is remarkably reductive.


Wild over-generalizations and reductive statements in an Internet argument? Who would ever have thought?

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Given the amount of reports this thread is generating and the round and round nature of the discussion, I've decided to lock this thread, we have well reached JAM levels right now and I'd rather not see this go FLOPSY BUNNY.

Let's stay CAKEY, okay?


   
 
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