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Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Torgroll wrote:
Audustum this is just wrong, Custodes train with their weapons all their life and guess what, they have a bolter inbuild so where is the difference especially if you have more skills and a longer life to learn more than the normal Space Marine?


I'm giving you GW's line. GW's line is that Space Marines drill bolters, bolters and bolters. Custodes seem to be considered more 'well rounded'.
   
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Yeah, but sorry that doesn't make it more right in my opinion especially if you consider that Space Marine Scouts have it as well and we even shoot better with the boltweapons too haha... it is just a lame excuse from gw.

I mean with all that stuff like no transhuman, no fearless, no bolter dicipline, no better weapons or gear it just feels wrong for custodes.

I'm not saying we are too weak in the competitive environment but their are so many things that just doesn't make sense if you consider the special role for the custodes. Their is no point in having them around if they are only a tiny bit better then Space Marines which are multiple times their number in the end lore- and game-wise.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 16:30:58


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
Torgroll wrote:
Audustum this is just wrong, Custodes train with their weapons all their life and guess what, they have a bolter inbuild so where is the difference especially if you have more skills and a longer life to learn more than the normal Space Marine?


I'm giving you GW's line. GW's line is that Space Marines drill bolters, bolters and bolters. Custodes seem to be considered more 'well rounded'.


The detail of Bolter Discipline or not is just semantics at this point. It is true that simply from a design perspective the line between Custodes and Marines becomes increasingly muddy, especially when you look at the statblock on the datasheet. This is in part because GW chose to put less levers into the statblock you can adjust to differentiate units and factions (like initiative or weapon skill values) and it is only exacerbated by the constant power creep. You can only differentiate so much if your statblock goes from 1-10 and you have a fixed to hit stat from +2 to +6.

Proper faction and unit differentiation and semi-good lore representation is absolutely crucial in a game and setting like 40k and that is a hill I am willing to die on. GW definitely needs to be careful about this....and people who say lore representation doesn't matter on the tabletop are full of gak because according to that logic a flat dmg4 lasgun would be totally fine if it costed 40p or something like that.

BUT when considering gameplay however we still mulch space marines with the new codex. Our characters can be kitted out to utterly stomp almost any space marine character they throw at us. Our units in combination with the shield host traits, stratagems and katas can counter most space marine units very well. We're not in a bad spot here, but GWs design philosophy utterly sucks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 16:38:15


 
   
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Lebanon NH

Well said!
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






 Thairne wrote:
Now in
Gravis Captains once again have more attacks than Custodes Shield Captains.
We just can't have SM being inferior for more than 2 weeks.
They also get "fighting styles" now which just translates to more attacks for specific weapon types.

It is just poorly named. GW should have named it differently and no one would have seen a problem.
Although i must say the Gravis captain is pretty close to a shield captain now. give him +1 S, + 1 M, +2 Ld and he has the same profile as a Blade champion, give him a 2+ save on top and he has the same profile as a SC.

Don't get me wrong the new codex is great and I really like the new shield host but IMO the difference between a SM character and a Custodes character should be bigger.

While I was writing this I realized, at this point what could you give Custodes to separate them from SM? The Custodes profile is almost maxed out.
You can't give them more wounds because the bike cap. would be over 9 wounds.
You can't give them more Toughness because a base line of T 6 would make bikes as tough as a dreadnought and that wouldn't make sense lore wise.
More than Ld 11 is almost pointless.

All the other stats are maxed except for Attacks, Strength, Save and movement.
A 1+ save would just mean, lower all AP by 1 which would probably be powerful but not too much with the right points. Custdoes are supposed to have the best armor after all.
Strength 6 would make meaningful buffs by the weapons hard but not impossible. Although the melee weapon profiles are too similar as is.
More Attacks would be the easiest option but also not make too much of a difference.

The non character options are another story. There is still room to improve the stat line.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Torgroll wrote:
Audustum this is just wrong, Custodes train with their weapons all their life and guess what, they have a bolter inbuild so where is the difference especially if you have more skills and a longer life to learn more than the normal Space Marine?


I'm giving you GW's line. GW's line is that Space Marines drill bolters, bolters and bolters. Custodes seem to be considered more 'well rounded'.


The detail of Bolter Discipline or not is just semantics at this point. It is true that simply from a design perspective the line between Custodes and Marines becomes increasingly muddy, especially when you look at the statblock on the datasheet. This is in part because GW chose to put less levers into the statblock you can adjust to differentiate units and factions (like initiative or weapon skill values) and it is only exacerbated by the constant power creep. You can only differentiate so much if your statblock goes from 1-10 and you have a fixed to hit stat from +2 to +6.

Proper faction and unit differentiation and semi-good lore representation is absolutely crucial in a game and setting like 40k and that is a hill I am willing to die on. GW definitely needs to be careful about this....and people who say lore representation doesn't matter on the tabletop are full of gak because according to that logic a flat dmg4 lasgun would be totally fine if it costed 40p or something like that.

BUT when considering gameplay however we still mulch space marines with the new codex. Our characters can be kitted out to utterly stomp almost any space marine character they throw at us. Our units in combination with the shield host traits, stratagems and katas can counter most space marine units very well. We're not in a bad spot here, but GWs design philosophy utterly sucks.

I totally agree. i really hope the SM stats creep stops.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:14:24


 
   
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dorset

Minor point, but hes also 20 points more expensive than a shield cap. 120 vs 100/105 with misa.


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
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Torgroll wrote:
Yeah, but sorry that doesn't make it more right in my opinion especially if you consider that Space Marine Scouts have it as well and we even shoot better with the boltweapons too haha... it is just a lame excuse from gw.

I mean with all that stuff like no transhuman, no fearless, no bolter dicipline, no better weapons or gear it just feels wrong for custodes.

I'm not saying we are too weak in the competitive environment but their are so many things that just doesn't make sense if you consider the special role for the custodes. Their is no point in having them around if they are only a tiny bit better then Space Marines which are multiple times their number in the end lore- and game-wise.



Tiberias wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Torgroll wrote:
Audustum this is just wrong, Custodes train with their weapons all their life and guess what, they have a bolter inbuild so where is the difference especially if you have more skills and a longer life to learn more than the normal Space Marine?


I'm giving you GW's line. GW's line is that Space Marines drill bolters, bolters and bolters. Custodes seem to be considered more 'well rounded'.


The detail of Bolter Discipline or not is just semantics at this point. It is true that simply from a design perspective the line between Custodes and Marines becomes increasingly muddy, especially when you look at the statblock on the datasheet. This is in part because GW chose to put less levers into the statblock you can adjust to differentiate units and factions (like initiative or weapon skill values) and it is only exacerbated by the constant power creep. You can only differentiate so much if your statblock goes from 1-10 and you have a fixed to hit stat from +2 to +6.

Proper faction and unit differentiation and semi-good lore representation is absolutely crucial in a game and setting like 40k and that is a hill I am willing to die on. GW definitely needs to be careful about this....and people who say lore representation doesn't matter on the tabletop are full of gak because according to that logic a flat dmg4 lasgun would be totally fine if it costed 40p or something like that.

BUT when considering gameplay however we still mulch space marines with the new codex. Our characters can be kitted out to utterly stomp almost any space marine character they throw at us. Our units in combination with the shield host traits, stratagems and katas can counter most space marine units very well. We're not in a bad spot here, but GWs design philosophy utterly sucks.


Sure, look, I've been saying for awhile that Gravis creeps on our design space with T5 and 3W. You're not gonna get a fight from me there. The issue is that, despite saying things can go above 10, GW hasn't made use of that newfound freedom. If Custodes start pushing T6 and T7 on bikes, we're effectively light vehicles because that's their design space and if those push up their infringing on Knights and heavy armor. GW just has to sit down and re-do what T4, T6, T8, e.t.c. mean. Marines going up in stats helps open up design space for Guard, Eldar, GSC, e.t.c. It's just an issue that they're not using the granularity they already have at their disposal and making something like a Knight T12 so Custodes can be T6/T7 without feeling like a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:24:46


 
   
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xerxeskingofking wrote:
Minor point, but hes also 20 points more expensive than a shield cap. 120 vs 100/105 with misa.

Have the points been leaked? 1PL is not really 20 points anymore. After CA 22 it is more like 17 and before it was 18 at least for the Custodes characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:29:53


 
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Even if it isnt really close, the point is - Gravis SM Captains are better and more expensive than a Custodes Shield Captain.
And that simply should not be, they shouldn't be equal, let alone more powerful!

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 Thairne wrote:
Even if it isnt really close, the point is - Gravis SM Captains are better and more expensive than a Custodes Shield Captain.
And that simply should not be, they shouldn't be equal, let alone more powerful!

Yeah it really buggs me too.

GW and SM players:

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 21:02:14


 
   
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Lebanon NH

It's funny because I have an almost 100% proxy Custodes collection that I sometimes run as space-marines instead with everyone as gravis.

So, with the statlines being almost identical now it's really just a matter of "flavor" above anything else. I totally agree that the custodes seem a bit better at playing objectives and "tricks" (tanglefoot grenade etc), but I also really wish that they had more personality in their rules.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's a moot point now, but giving all our guys the Consummate Swordsman ability, so can't be hit on better than a 4+ in melee, would have been a cool idea imo.
So it's not exactly like permanent transhuman and would represent our guys being superlative warriors in comparison to say, Space Marines for example. All with an appropriate points increase.

But again, I'm not a game designer and I for sure don't call the shots at GW so right now we should at least be happy that our favorite faction has a good codex.

And to return to the topic of tactics: I think it's telling that there are more Custodes players (42) than Dark Eldar players (40) attending LVO.
We are surely going to get some interesting data from that event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:59:08


 
   
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 Thairne wrote:
Even if it isnt really close, the point is - Gravis SM Captains are better and more expensive than a Custodes Shield Captain.
And that simply should not be, they shouldn't be equal, let alone more powerful!


Whoa, whoa, what? I'll take any of our Captains over this guy any day. No way is he more powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
It's a moot point now, but giving all our guys the Consummate Swordsman ability, so can't be hit on better than a 4+ in melee, would have been a cool idea imo.
So it's not exactly like permanent transhuman and would represent our guys being superlative warriors in comparison to say, Space Marines for example. All with an appropriate points increase.

But again, I'm not a game designer and I for sure don't call the shots at GW so right now we should at least be happy that our favorite faction has a good codex.

And to return to the topic of tactics: I think it's telling that there are more Custodes players (42) than Dark Eldar players (40) attending LVO.
We are surely going to get some interesting data from that event.


Keep in mind too it's pre-points drop for CA and 2021 missions. One thing hurts us and one thing that allegedly helps us. I'll be curious about it too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 21:00:12


 
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






I mean just compare the statlines alone

5" 2+ 2+ 4 5 7 5 9 3+/4++
6" 2+ 2+ 5 5 7 6 11 2+/4++

That is uncomfortably close.

1" movement, 1 Attack, 2 LD and 1 sv.
The attacks actually pull equal shield captain stats if you equip him with a power fist at increased AP to a castellan axe, even MORE if in assault doctrine.
Then you get the slew of special rules that murk the waters even more.
Like MORE attacks if he makes the charge. More bolter shots by a significant margin (granted for 1D which cancels that out - somewhat. 1D in this meta is actually better).
In the correct doctrine, the boltstorm surpasses our "auric weapons".
And if you add things like keen senses so he actually hits on the same BS as a shield captain with the other chapter tactics, I do not see how a custodes is, by any reasonable margin, better than a SM captain.
They're at least on equal footing and that should.not.be.

The codex power level is nice but not really relevant for this discussion. I mean if you drop custodes down to 1pt/model they're obviously broken, but the point is that SM are now on a custodes level individually and are taking away the identity of the Custodes by occupying the same design space almost to a T.
Once codex 2.0 drops, you can be pretty sure a power bump will follow which WILL make SM not only the superior army statswise and model wise, but also as a competitive army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 21:41:46


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dorset

 nordsturmking wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
Minor point, but hes also 20 points more expensive than a shield cap. 120 vs 100/105 with misa.

Have the points been leaked? 1PL is not really 20 points anymore. After CA 22 it is more like 17 and before it was 18 at least for the Custodes characters.


its on the PDF with the new datasheets, so not so much leaked as annouced. (bottom left of page 2)

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






xerxeskingofking wrote:
 nordsturmking wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
Minor point, but hes also 20 points more expensive than a shield cap. 120 vs 100/105 with misa.

Have the points been leaked? 1PL is not really 20 points anymore. After CA 22 it is more like 17 and before it was 18 at least for the Custodes characters.


its on the PDF with the new datasheets, so not so much leaked as annouced. (bottom left of page 2)

Ah ok i see. Hm thats a bit odd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thairne wrote:
I mean just compare the statlines alone

5" 2+ 2+ 4 5 7 5 9 3+/4++
6" 2+ 2+ 5 5 7 6 11 2+/4++

That is uncomfortably close.

1" movement, 1 Attack, 2 LD and 1 sv.
The attacks actually pull equal shield captain stats if you equip him with a power fist at increased AP to a castellan axe, even MORE if in assault doctrine.
Then you get the slew of special rules that murk the waters even more.
Like MORE attacks if he makes the charge. More bolter shots by a significant margin (granted for 1D which cancels that out - somewhat. 1D in this meta is actually better).
In the correct doctrine, the boltstorm surpasses our "auric weapons".
And if you add things like keen senses so he actually hits on the same BS as a shield captain with the other chapter tactics, I do not see how a custodes is, by any reasonable margin, better than a SM captain.
They're at least on equal footing and that should.not.be.

The codex power level is nice but not really relevant for this discussion. I mean if you drop custodes down to 1pt/model they're obviously broken, but the point is that SM are now on a custodes level individually and are taking away the identity of the Custodes by occupying the same design space almost to a T.
Once codex 2.0 drops, you can be pretty sure a power bump will follow which WILL make SM not only the superior army statswise and model wise, but also as a competitive army.

Yes the stats creep needs to stop. Did you see my post where i comment on your first post on the new gravis cap? In case you didn't here the part i wrote about the stats creep:

Although i must say the Gravis captain is pretty close to a shield captain now. give him +1 S, + 1 M, +2 Ld and he has the same profile as a Blade champion, give him a 2+ save on top and he has the same profile as a SC.
Don't get me wrong the new codex is great and I really like the new shield host but IMO the difference between a SM character and a Custodes character should be bigger.
While I was writing this I realized, at this point what could you give Custodes to separate them from SM? The Custodes profile is almost maxed out.
You can't give them more wounds because the bike cap. would be over 9 wounds.
You can't give them more Toughness because a base line of T 6 would make bikes as tough as a dreadnought and that wouldn't make sense lore wise.
More than Ld 11 is almost pointless.

All the other stats are maxed except for Attacks, Strength, Save and movement.
A 1+ save would just mean, lower all AP by 1 which would probably be powerful but not too much with the right points. Custdoes are supposed to have the best armor after all.
Strength 6 would make meaningful buffs by the weapons hard but not impossible. Although the melee weapon profiles are too similar as is.
More Attacks would be the easiest option but also not make too much of a difference.

The non character options are another story. There is still room to improve the stat line.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 22:11:58


 
   
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So our Custodes Blademaster may turn out to be the best melee HQ in the game, he is quickly turning me around. I was wrong to doubt his power. My only concern is that he's a Telemon. Opponents know what he is and what he can do, and will devote a lot to downing him. That leaves my character killing and chaff clearing up to bikes, right? Is it a viable strategy to use a Bike Captain, Trajaan, and a Blademaster? With the Blademaster playing Distraction Carnifex?
   
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Blade champ is just that. He's a distraction. He does nothing for your army except present himself a target, either for avoidance, or to gun for.

He doesnt buff you army, and he doesnt solo squads of elites by himself. He doesnt have particularily great mobility, and he isnt amazingly duable (though he is pretty tanky one on one).


You wont see him in my lists........

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Tiberias wrote:
It's a moot point now, but giving all our guys the Consummate Swordsman ability, so can't be hit on better than a 4+ in melee, would have been a cool idea imo.
So it's not exactly like permanent transhuman and would represent our guys being superlative warriors in comparison to say, Space Marines for example. All with an appropriate points increase.


I actually would like that quite a bit, Custodes are often noted in the BL as being a class about when it comes to hand-to-hand combat with other mortals so a 4+ Hit in Melee would have been great and really distinguish us. Maybe in 10th edition
   
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Denison, Iowa

Custodes need dueling rules to set them apart. They should give an addition mortal wound on 6's to wound.
   
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So what's the verdict on troops, spears or sword&board???

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Mysterious Techpriest






S&B or Saggitarum so far, it looks like is the current choice.

Im sorry to hug this thread, but that's its purpose - tactics
The map/mission for the game tomorrow game is set.

GT 11, Retrieval Mission
Pending Terrain and deployment, my plan is as follows:
Auric Mortalis, Engage, Assassinat/no Prisoners. Mission secondary is a no go since its gonna be darn bloody.
I pretty much know there will be 5 Wolves with TH, so those will be the Mortalis target. I cannot allow them to make more than one fighting phase or I'll collapse quickly, so thats not a win more, its a "have a chance to win"

Deployment looks like this:
1 Squad of Sisters on each side of the HO to score engage T1 (I expect to lose them due to a DS of blood claws in a pod T2 at the latest. Again, nothing I can do about that).
If I move just 1" out of my deploy on "my" objectives, that puts me 23" away from his deployment - that should put him on a 9" charge even if he advances 6". If he makes THAT, since I probably cant tanglefoot them, that would suck, but nothing I can do against. I really want that one round of shooting though. Also would require him to commit to a flank (where I definitely might well redeploy the blademaster to with the Oubliette) instead of holding the wolves in the middle and pick&choose. One shield squad each with Blade Master/Trajann as support. Bikes will redeploy with Castellans Mark if needed to get LoS with advance/shoot Katah to whittle down the Wolves. Vexila goes where wolfs deploy to shore up that side (possibly with Castellans).
Then we'll slog it out and see who comes off as the winner, then roll up with the bikes to take objs from him.

Katahs: Calistus, Dactarai, Kaptaris

Sounds reasonable as a pregame plan?
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I really don't see the value of +1 armor and extra cost, over the value of relic bolters and S7 melee, for less cost?
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Praesidium Shield Wall
-1 to hit on demand is nice and ups the survivability of the squad, especially when you KNOW you're going against a melee army.
Also S6->S7 is not that big of an improvement (plus I only have 9 Shield bois and 9 sagittarum)

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I guess it matters less that we lost the Spear strat, and the shoot twice strat. But I still say the ability to wound S7 things on a 4+ is good, being able to plink away wounds with relic bolters is also nice. Being able to get -1 to hit in melee for 1 cp isn't worth the extra cost.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






if it saves 45 pts from keeling over, it is.
Also, its not like you lose all shooting. You lose 1 S4 -1 D2 shot between 12" and 24" and gain the ability to pistol ship the muggers in combat.
The strength difference is there, and while I agree that shields should honestly be free for the tradeoffs, I see merit in both loadouts depending on what you go for.
In my case, I want to hold midfield objectives against a fast and durable melee army. Spears dont help me with that, shields can.

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I like mixed MSU squads with one shield. All shields are a good choice still, it's just that spears became more viable instead of being a non-choice.

The game plan looks good and you get extra points from me for picking auric mortalis.

But if my memory serves, Assassinate and Auric Mortalis share a category, so you can't pick both.

Engage is nice, but are you mobile enough? You want to face him in the midfield anyway, maybe Domination would even be easier to do, since it plays into your game plan anyway.

   
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 Thairne wrote:
I mean just compare the statlines alone

5" 2+ 2+ 4 5 7 5 9 3+/4++
6" 2+ 2+ 5 5 7 6 11 2+/4++

That is uncomfortably close.

1" movement, 1 Attack, 2 LD and 1 sv.
The attacks actually pull equal shield captain stats if you equip him with a power fist at increased AP to a castellan axe, even MORE if in assault doctrine.
Then you get the slew of special rules that murk the waters even more.
Like MORE attacks if he makes the charge. More bolter shots by a significant margin (granted for 1D which cancels that out - somewhat. 1D in this meta is actually better).
In the correct doctrine, the boltstorm surpasses our "auric weapons".
And if you add things like keen senses so he actually hits on the same BS as a shield captain with the other chapter tactics, I do not see how a custodes is, by any reasonable margin, better than a SM captain.
They're at least on equal footing and that should.not.be.

The codex power level is nice but not really relevant for this discussion. I mean if you drop custodes down to 1pt/model they're obviously broken, but the point is that SM are now on a custodes level individually and are taking away the identity of the Custodes by occupying the same design space almost to a T.
Once codex 2.0 drops, you can be pretty sure a power bump will follow which WILL make SM not only the superior army statswise and model wise, but also as a competitive army.



To quibble in my own defense; 'close' isn't the same as 'clearly better' which is what I was arguing against.

That said, if you're going to bring in all of his special bonuses and stratagems, then you have to bring in ours too. Shutting off re-rolls, Tanglefooting (non-SW), Transhuman (for both of them), not getting a -1 to Hit on our 2 damage weapon, free re-roll to hit/wound or always fight first and ignore hit/wound modifiers, all the Katahs, e.t.c. I think our guy is still clearly above the SM captain even if we go down this route.

Also, it's begun. Reddit has started getting front page posts calling for us to be nerfed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/se9mkf/getting_ahead_of_this_before_the_lvo_results/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 14:32:03


 
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






I mean auric is just "get VP for eliminating TWC" which I desperately NEED to do anyway, so I get double rewarded

Looking at the map... it could. All it requires is taking/holding my objective in the midfield and use the bikes to zoom onto his.
You're right tho, Auric and Assassinate are the same category.
I assume by domination you mean Strangehold? That could be possible as well.
Raise is pretty off though with only 1 obj in the homezone, the middle is to easily contested for that - and quite a bit too slow.

So Auric, Supremacy (this one really scares me though) and maybe still Raise. I will be able to raise 3 Banners first turn, and even if I lose one, thats still 10 pts if I dont get one back from him.


Edit: I lost it when the reddit post claims we can flood the board

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 14:41:54


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Damsel of the Lady




 Thairne wrote:
S&B or Saggitarum so far, it looks like is the current choice.

Im sorry to hug this thread, but that's its purpose - tactics
The map/mission for the game tomorrow game is set.

GT 11, Retrieval Mission
Pending Terrain and deployment, my plan is as follows:
Auric Mortalis, Engage, Assassinat/no Prisoners. Mission secondary is a no go since its gonna be darn bloody.
I pretty much know there will be 5 Wolves with TH, so those will be the Mortalis target. I cannot allow them to make more than one fighting phase or I'll collapse quickly, so thats not a win more, its a "have a chance to win"

Deployment looks like this:
1 Squad of Sisters on each side of the HO to score engage T1 (I expect to lose them due to a DS of blood claws in a pod T2 at the latest. Again, nothing I can do about that).
If I move just 1" out of my deploy on "my" objectives, that puts me 23" away from his deployment - that should put him on a 9" charge even if he advances 6". If he makes THAT, since I probably cant tanglefoot them, that would suck, but nothing I can do against. I really want that one round of shooting though. Also would require him to commit to a flank (where I definitely might well redeploy the blademaster to with the Oubliette) instead of holding the wolves in the middle and pick&choose. One shield squad each with Blade Master/Trajann as support. Bikes will redeploy with Castellans Mark if needed to get LoS with advance/shoot Katah to whittle down the Wolves. Vexila goes where wolfs deploy to shore up that side (possibly with Castellans).
Then we'll slog it out and see who comes off as the winner, then roll up with the bikes to take objs from him.

Katahs: Calistus, Dactarai, Kaptaris

Sounds reasonable as a pregame plan?


Let's break this down.

GT2021 Retrieval, right? That's not a bad one. If you're using the list you posted before:

1. Engage is solid for you. You've got 2 squads of Jetbikes and a Jetbike captain. You should be able to be where you need to be to get points. I'd be careful with Stranglehold because he has access to Transhuman and that can be an issue (i.e. he can crowd up, buff up and deny your ability to blow off objectives). Engage is generally a safer path because there's no counterplay from your opponent when you have 14" FLY models.

2. Assassinate is probably better than Auric here. His characters are his lynchpin and you throw him into a tough choice: does he use them and put them in danger (since they're close range) or hide them and keep them safe to deny you points? Either way, you have a clear idea of what to do with them. Auric is dangerous because, assuming the TWC are what qualifies, you're likely to lose some points when they kill things and he can ram them towards your DZ to deny more points.

3. Retrieval's secondary is almost always a trap for everybody. You're making the right call there. I don't like Supremacy here either because this map is easy to stalemate 2-2 on mid-field objectives. In your shoes, I'd take Raise or ROD.

4. Calistus is solid. If you go first, use Stance 1 and get positioned (somewhere safe but further up). If you go second, maybe try Stance 2 and blast him. I'd probably put Kaptaris second over Dacatarai. You want the 'no re-rolls' to blunt the initial collision of the two armies.

5. The jetbikes can work as a responsive unit and move from center positioning to whatever flank the TWC choose. You out number him and can soften them up with shooting.
   
 
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