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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Karol wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Called it. To the person(s) saying bans don't work, here is a literal set of nerfs to a faction that hasn't even been released yet. Just the threat of a ban to their new release spurred GW into action.

BTW, love the "How did this happen" part.

It's like that two panel meme where the host shoots the person, then asks the audience, "How did this happen?"


It is worth to note that from the way GW described their method of testing the rules for their later in edition armies, the Tyranids and Eldar were designed to coexist with armies like LoV. Yet somehow there was no planet wide call for bans of those factions, even if they were just or more broken the LoV. It is a double standard, and it will create a situation where some factions are more privilaged then others and just allowed to be broken, while others won't.
Alternative theory, Nids being broken as gak and running roughshod over the competitive scene in the past is why people are less willing to take gak now.

"We've been on this ride before, it was garbage. Lets not do that again".
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




So it is a double standard. Eldar and tyranids have their books not "fixed", necrons can have their do what their do with no fixs or bans, same with sob. But if your factions is less popular or new, it is okey to ban it. That is not how rules should work, they should be the same for everyone.

Even GW wanted to implement such changes then they should write an article, that this codex starts a new batch of book and that since this one they will be adjusting it X days or weeks in to the game, and that this is going to be done to all books.

The problem wasn't the tournament bans, the list people could build out of the limited edition boxs were bad, because they like the crucial units like the fortress or the LoV techmarine. The problem is the trickle down to stores, store events and regular games, where people suddenly didn't go with the prior talk about waiting for meta to adjust, something they often said when their armies were OP, but to no playing for you till GW nerfs the faction.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Karol wrote:
So it is a double standard. Eldar and tyranids have their books not "fixed", necrons can have their do what their do with no fixs or bans, same with sob. But if your factions is less popular or new, it is okey to ban it. That is not how rules should work, they should be the same for everyone.

Even GW wanted to implement such changes then they should write an article, that this codex starts a new batch of book and that since this one they will be adjusting it X days or weeks in to the game, and that this is going to be done to all books.

The problem wasn't the tournament bans, the list people could build out of the limited edition boxs were bad, because they like the crucial units like the fortress or the LoV techmarine. The problem is the trickle down to stores, store events and regular games, where people suddenly didn't go with the prior talk about waiting for meta to adjust, something they often said when their armies were OP, but to no playing for you till GW nerfs the faction.



wtf are you on? the fact that a tournament in germany bans a codex (like they do with EVERY CODEX) doesn't suddenly mean you can't play the codex at your LGS.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Ordana wrote:
Alternative theory, Nids being broken as gak and running roughshod over the competitive scene in the past is why people are less willing to take gak now.

"We've been on this ride before, it was garbage. Lets not do that again".

Try playing not Eldar, Necrons, SoB or a mirror in to leviathan and then we can talk what ever Tyranids are broken or not. The only thing that is keeping them in check, is the other top factions and the secondaries they have. If nids, or eldar, had necron seconderies then in comperation something like LoV would seem laughably mid tier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:



wtf are you on? the fact that a tournament in germany bans a codex (like they do with EVERY CODEX) doesn't suddenly mean you can't play the codex at your LGS.


Only that is what was happening here, people were refusing to play LoV. Same way they were refusing to play IH at the end of 8th ed. It should not be an option, and it should not be an option especialy for people whose armies have been at the top for a long time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 13:07:50


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Karol wrote:

Only that is what was happening here, people were refusing to play LoV. Same way they were refusing to play IH at the end of 8th ed. It should not be an option, and it should not be an option especialy for people whose armies have been at the top for a long time.


Thats a problem with the toxicity of your LGS, not the situation for the whole world. We've already told you how bad your store is.
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 13:19:30


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
So it is a double standard.

No. It's logic and common sense.

Karol wrote:
Eldar and tyranids have their books not "fixed", necrons can have their do what their do with no fixs or bans, same with sob. But if your factions is less popular or new, it is okey to ban it. That is not how rules should work, they should be the same for everyone.

No. If those rules don't work and we realise they're causing too many problems we absolutely should change our behaviour in light of this new information. Again, what you're proposing is continuing to make a mistake because we made the same mistake in the past. That's stupid.

People thought LoV were massively overpowered. If we're talking about banning them the following are things we need to consider:

1. Are the rules really as broken as we think?
2. Will the meta evolve to counter them in a way that maintains a healthy overall game state?
3. (More minor concern, possibly) How will a ban affect owners of the army?

You'll notice "what did we do in the past?" is not a question we need to concern ourselves with. It's utterly irrelevant. Either the rules are so OP we need to ban them, or they're not. There's a discussion to be had there, for sure, but it's got nothing to do with how we handled things in the past.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point
   
Made in us
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 MinscS2 wrote:
The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.


Nobody mentioned Thudnerkyn because there were so many other broken things to worry about, but what is a thunderkyn? its a stronger Gravis Space Marine armed with a +1S and +1AP Heavy bolter as stock. It basically gets AoC on steroids and ignores dense cover when shooting. Yeah I would say those guys are pretty damn good at 40ppm, They aren't as game breaking as other things but christ almighty, they make my 25pt Flashgitz look like grots by comparison

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.


Nobody mentioned Thudnerkyn because there were so many other broken things to worry about, but what is a thunderkyn? its a stronger Gravis Space Marine armed with a +1S and +1AP Heavy bolter as stock. It basically gets AoC on steroids and ignores dense cover when shooting. Yeah I would say those guys are pretty damn good at 40ppm, They aren't as game breaking as other things but christ almighty, they make my 25pt Flashgitz look like grots by comparison

Orks shouldn't be used as a measure of power though because they're so bad right now that I'm surprised it made it through GW's vigorous playtesting (assuming you actually believe them when they say they do LOL)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




EviscerationPlague wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.


Nobody mentioned Thudnerkyn because there were so many other broken things to worry about, but what is a thunderkyn? its a stronger Gravis Space Marine armed with a +1S and +1AP Heavy bolter as stock. It basically gets AoC on steroids and ignores dense cover when shooting. Yeah I would say those guys are pretty damn good at 40ppm, They aren't as game breaking as other things but christ almighty, they make my 25pt Flashgitz look like grots by comparison

Orks shouldn't be used as a measure of power though because they're so bad right now that I'm surprised it made it through GW's vigorous playtesting (assuming you actually believe them when they say they do LOL)


LOL, fair point in regards to Flashgitz, but compare them to Mairnes and its still the same, a Devastator Marine armed with a heavy bolter is 28ppm, He is -1S, -1T, -1W, -1A his weapon is Heavy3 to the Thunderkyn's HunTR3, the weapon is also -1S and -1AP. So 12pts gets the Thunderkyn a lot of advantages over that Heavy Bolter Devastator. Naturally being able to ignore Dense cover is awesome for example

I'm just pointing out that yeah Thunderkyn aren't as ridiculous as auto 6s to wound and spillover dmg from huge weapons but they were still ridiculous at 35ppm.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.
Au contraire, maybee gw will reign it's bs in even more if they fear for their$£€¥chf,etc

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.

It doesn't need to do anything NOW, it needs to do something in the future. Instead of being "ooooh shiny must buy", think further ahead. I WANT them to lose money on this because they fethed up and deserve it. Stop defending GW.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:

Oddly, said organisers do not appear to have done the same for other factions which have proven to be meta-deforming within the same edition, presumably because they'd lose money by banning existing armies...


There are three good reasons why that's not the case.

1. Votann is even more busted

2. Nobody has existing Votann armies

3. Eventually you gotta say enough is enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Leagues already getting hit with nerfs: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Also, looks like I was right on the money in terms of how timeline effects balance (that or GW was browsing on dakka and saw my post and said "yeah, thats a good excuse!").


Almost certainly the latter lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
It is worth to note that from the way GW described their method of testing the rules for their later in edition armies, the Tyranids and Eldar were designed to coexist with armies like LoV. Yet somehow there was no planet wide call for bans of those factions, even if they were just or more broken the LoV. It is a double standard, and it will create a situation where some factions are more privilaged then others and just allowed to be broken, while others won't.


It's not a double standard, but keep on with your roleplaying like you hate balance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/29 17:46:08


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.

It doesn't need to do anything NOW, it needs to do something in the future. Instead of being "ooooh shiny must buy", think further ahead. I WANT them to lose money on this because they fethed up and deserve it. Stop defending GW.


I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
The problem is the trickle down to stores, store events and regular games, where people suddenly didn't go with the prior talk about waiting for meta to adjust, something they often said when their armies were OP, but to no playing for you till GW nerfs the faction.


That's the responsibility of regular players.

And no, Votann players are not entitled to unearned wins with a broken codex. Votann players should have been very reticent to bust that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.


You defend GW past the point of reason fairly frequently though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 18:21:53


 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Hecaton wrote:
Karol wrote:
The problem is the trickle down to stores, store events and regular games, where people suddenly didn't go with the prior talk about waiting for meta to adjust, something they often said when their armies were OP, but to no playing for you till GW nerfs the faction.


That's the responsibility of regular players.

And no, Votann players are not entitled to unearned wins with a broken codex. Votann players should have been very reticent to bust that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.


You defend GW past the point of reason fairly frequently though.


There are no Votann players at present, unless someone bought 3 of the army box and has been assembling and painting like a maniac, in which case they have a seriously limited force anyway.

They definitely needed a kick into touch, I don't think anyone seriously suggested otherwise, no debate there, but there has been 0 harm done to any events or meta and there reasonably wouldn't have been for nearly 2 months.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.

It doesn't need to do anything NOW, it needs to do something in the future. Instead of being "ooooh shiny must buy", think further ahead. I WANT them to lose money on this because they fethed up and deserve it. Stop defending GW.


I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.

"GW did not even the bare minimum so we should give them money still" is not a middle ground. Either you think they should pay for a mistake they keep making or not.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.

It doesn't need to do anything NOW, it needs to do something in the future. Instead of being "ooooh shiny must buy", think further ahead. I WANT them to lose money on this because they fethed up and deserve it. Stop defending GW.


I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.

"GW did not even the bare minimum so we should give them money still" is not a middle ground. Either you think they should pay for a mistake they keep making or not.


What do you want them to do exactly? What circumstance will result you in thinking it's ok for someone to have Votann force and attend an event here? If they've fixed the main issues (remains to be seen) before the army is widely released how do you justify punishing them financially? How are you going to punish them by telling people to not buy something they can't buy?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hecaton wrote:
You defend GW past the point of reason fairly frequently though.


That you think so tells me more about how you think than it does about how I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
"GW did not even the bare minimum so we should give them money still" is not a middle ground. Either you think they should pay for a mistake they keep making or not.


I literally said don't buy the book, but you think I'm advocating giving them money still.

You guys need to get out more.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/29 20:02:01


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
I actually think we need to continue with the ban/boycott to prove a point


No, I think the point is made with the customer now. Don't buy a book that is out of date so quickly. Banning doesn't do anything helpful now.

It doesn't need to do anything NOW, it needs to do something in the future. Instead of being "ooooh shiny must buy", think further ahead. I WANT them to lose money on this because they fethed up and deserve it. Stop defending GW.


I like how not taking the most extreme stance is considered defending GW.

"GW did not even the bare minimum so we should give them money still" is not a middle ground. Either you think they should pay for a mistake they keep making or not.


What do you want them to do exactly? What circumstance will result you in thinking it's ok for someone to have Votann force and attend an event here? If they've fixed the main issues (remains to be seen) before the army is widely released how do you justify punishing them financially? How are you going to punish them by telling people to not buy something they can't buy?

Maybe a year or so. So not too long for punishing them.
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





SemperMortis wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.


Nobody mentioned Thudnerkyn because there were so many other broken things to worry about, but what is a thunderkyn? its a stronger Gravis Space Marine armed with a +1S and +1AP Heavy bolter as stock. It basically gets AoC on steroids and ignores dense cover when shooting. Yeah I would say those guys are pretty damn good at 40ppm, They aren't as game breaking as other things but christ almighty, they make my 25pt Flashgitz look like grots by comparison

Orks shouldn't be used as a measure of power though because they're so bad right now that I'm surprised it made it through GW's vigorous playtesting (assuming you actually believe them when they say they do LOL)


LOL, fair point in regards to Flashgitz, but compare them to Mairnes and its still the same, a Devastator Marine armed with a heavy bolter is 28ppm, He is -1S, -1T, -1W, -1A his weapon is Heavy3 to the Thunderkyn's HunTR3, the weapon is also -1S and -1AP. So 12pts gets the Thunderkyn a lot of advantages over that Heavy Bolter Devastator. Naturally being able to ignore Dense cover is awesome for example

I'm just pointing out that yeah Thunderkyn aren't as ridiculous as auto 6s to wound and spillover dmg from huge weapons but they were still ridiculous at 35ppm.


Your comparison is flawed, you're comparing to a unit who can have several ablative wounds to one that can not.
And a 12 ppm difference between models is huge, so you're really comparing apples to oranges.

A better comparison would be Thunderkyn to Havocs;
3 Thunderkyn with Boltcannon: 105/120 points. 9 T5 wounds spread out on 3 models, 9 S6 AP2 D2 shots at 36"
5 Havocs with Havoc Autocannons: 125 points, 10 T5 wounds spread out on 5 models, 8 S7 AP2 D2 shots at 48" + 2 boltershots at 24".

Both can move and fire without penalty.
Thunderkyn ignore dense and can't be re-rolled to wound at.
Havocs are faster, harder to kill (5x2 > 3x3), shoot slightly better, have 2 ablative wounds and have more punch in close combat if they end up there.
I'd say for 120 points, the Havocs are a nobrainer choice at 5 points more.

To quote Auspex Tactics in his latest video about the LoV balance patch: "If there was ever a unit in the codex they probably could've left alone I think it was them", speaking about the Thunderkyn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 23:54:48


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Sacratomato

God I'm glad I don't play the tournament scene anymore. Reading here has made me understand society and 2020 so much better.

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
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 Da-Rock wrote:
God I'm glad I don't play the tournament scene anymore. Reading here has made me understand society and 2020 so much better.

gakky balance affects everyone, or are you saying you'd purposely not pick the rail weapons to benefit from Grudge token wounding?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MinscS2 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.


Nobody mentioned Thudnerkyn because there were so many other broken things to worry about, but what is a thunderkyn? its a stronger Gravis Space Marine armed with a +1S and +1AP Heavy bolter as stock. It basically gets AoC on steroids and ignores dense cover when shooting. Yeah I would say those guys are pretty damn good at 40ppm, They aren't as game breaking as other things but christ almighty, they make my 25pt Flashgitz look like grots by comparison

Orks shouldn't be used as a measure of power though because they're so bad right now that I'm surprised it made it through GW's vigorous playtesting (assuming you actually believe them when they say they do LOL)


LOL, fair point in regards to Flashgitz, but compare them to Mairnes and its still the same, a Devastator Marine armed with a heavy bolter is 28ppm, He is -1S, -1T, -1W, -1A his weapon is Heavy3 to the Thunderkyn's HunTR3, the weapon is also -1S and -1AP. So 12pts gets the Thunderkyn a lot of advantages over that Heavy Bolter Devastator. Naturally being able to ignore Dense cover is awesome for example

I'm just pointing out that yeah Thunderkyn aren't as ridiculous as auto 6s to wound and spillover dmg from huge weapons but they were still ridiculous at 35ppm.


Your comparison is flawed, you're comparing to a unit who can have several ablative wounds to one that can not.
And a 12 ppm difference between models is huge, so you're really comparing apples to oranges.

A better comparison would be Thunderkyn to Havocs;
3 Thunderkyn with Boltcannon: 105/120 points. 9 T5 wounds spread out on 3 models, 9 S6 AP2 D2 shots at 36"
5 Havocs with Havoc Autocannons: 125 points, 10 T5 wounds spread out on 5 models, 8 S7 AP2 D2 shots at 48" + 2 boltershots at 24".

Both can move and fire without penalty.
Thunderkyn ignore dense and can't be re-rolled to wound at.
Havocs are faster, harder to kill (5x2 > 3x3), shoot slightly better, have 2 ablative wounds and have more punch in close combat if they end up there.
I'd say for 120 points, the Havocs are a nobrainer choice at 5 points more.

To quote Auspex Tactics in his latest video about the LoV balance patch: "If there was ever a unit in the codex they probably could've left alone I think it was them", speaking about the Thunderkyn.

I LOL at the notion that you give Havocs are faster because they literally only have 1" more movement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 00:07:24


 
   
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^It's small, but when it's 5 vs 6 it's 20%, and it does occasionally matter.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
^It's small, but when it's 5 vs 6 it's 20%, and it does occasionally matter.

Not on small boards with long range guns.
   
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 Dysartes wrote:

Oddly, said organisers do not appear to have done the same for other factions which have proven to be meta-deforming within the same edition, presumably because they'd lose money by banning existing armies...



1) They should've done so.

2) Votann was about to drop another Tyranid-style grenade on the game just when it seemed like it almost got playable for maybe the first time in 2 years.

3) Isn't it great people finally grew some balls and aren't bending over no matter what GW does? Hopefully the scene will be more vocal about such issues in the future too.
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^It's small, but when it's 5 vs 6 it's 20%, and it does occasionally matter.

Not on small boards with long range guns.


Thunderkyn can move a maximum of 8".
Havocs can move a maximum of 12".

If you don't see the value in that extra movement in a game of objectives, I honestly don't know what to say.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Does anyone bring Autocannon Havocs?

I think its fair to say Thunderkyn are not good, and didn't need the points hike to be made even worse. But equally they do have all these soft-stat upgrades over comparable units, and should therefore pay something for them.

Basically if Thunderkyn are not good at 35/40 points, HB Devs & Flashgitz etc are terrible at their points level. Which they are. But fixing one faction's units and not the wider game is the nature of creep.
   
 
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