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It is an interesting one, as we’ve not really had this come up before.

Unlike Necromunda and AT, when WHFB was mothballed, it had a pretty wide range of units in existence. Whilst I can’t speak for metal or Finecast moulds, I think we can reasonably say the plastic moulds, stored properly, just need a dust off and away you go.

Some from a launch point of view, there’s far, far less that needs doing. In a pinch, they could arguably release No New Kits At All.

I very much doubt they would of course. As I think I’ve said before in this thread? I’m expecting a combination of old kits returning, and a few Tent Pole Attention Grabbers.

For Empire? Imperial Knignts and a War Wagon are both low hanging fruit in terms of Shiny News. Great swords, Soldiery etc remain relatively modern, and whilst they have their detractors don’t need their aesthetic modernised.

Khemri? Well they could get away with new Skellingtons, Cavalry, Chariots, Ushabti and Tomb Scorpions. That’s 5 kits, which is a fairly modest release by GW’s standards.

And with a decent range of plastic kits in existence, just OOP? I don’t see why New Stuff would be punted to resin. Yes FW normally does resin, but times have moved on. With the size of their factor, and (I think) in-house tooling? The need for resin for non-character “we’re going to sell a lot of these” type kits is greatly reduced.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tent Pole Attention Grabbers.

With the time shift i'd wager that their initial plan is something like releasing the basic troops in old plastic, e.g. as they were at the time of the great mothballing, and use the characters and special characters as Tentpoles - they do not need to conform to the limits of rank&file as strictly as mainline regiments, they can be done very characterfully with comparatively low investments for new sculpts, they can easily be done in resin, and they can give a whole range a visual theme if you do upgrade packs for the old regiments with style elements you pick up and turn to 11 in the Special characters. Have e.g. Marienburgers with some puffed sleeves, feathered hats and jewellery, and have their Empress run around like a full-blown 17th century dutch noblewoman. Thus, their first couple of years could rest upon the cornerstone of the old plastic regiments and focus on timeline-specific characters in resin, nice upgrade packs in the style of HH Legion kits, and the odd monster, war machine or special unit to flesh out the ranges.

They could just chuck square bases back in the old kits that got round bases however many years back - but I tend to agree that many of these kits are "out of date". Stripped of nostalgia, the quality isn't there with today's models. Especially with kits that were already old by 8th edition.

And this does sort of bleed into Sigmar releases. For example for High Elves, while they may have silly names - the Lumineth Wardens and Dawnriders are amazing models. Would I want to go "go back" to the frankly ancient 6th edition Spearmen and Silver Helms? Not really no. I may not have minded those kits so much 10-15 years ago - but they look decidedly poor today.

Certainly the idea of calling Greatswords (2009), Soldiery (what, State Troops - 2007?) "relatively modern" is just crazy to me. Relatively modern compared to what? That mostly metal army you put together in the mid-90s? The world has moved on somewhat.

Relatively modern compared to the WHFB range.

Whilst I know not everyone like the Soldiery in particular, it’s a solid kit, with a decent number of options.

It already exists, likely in steel mould form, and comfortably does the job intended of it.

And at relaunch, you’re relying on folks dusting off their new armies, and buying a few bits here and there rather than a wave of Entirely New Armies being bought.

Re-done Soldiery isn’t the same as a New War Wagon or Updated Knights.

 Just Tony wrote:

JSG wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?

Generally just being poor sculpts. People were waiting for half the core troops to be redone before WFB got squatted.

So you'd rather have "dynamic" posed fidgety frailty that shatters the second you try to transport it?


Honestly the Core troops need to be less modular poseable kits and more like the monopose models of old with maybe switchable fronts. Think Chaos Warriors. That is a great way to give people who think armies need individual poses their option and the people learned and intelligent enough to know how regimented troops look and act on an actual battlefield can have a uniform looking and moving regiment.

No that's just a conversation you're having with yourself. Many of the old core troops just looked like ass. No one wanted the HE spearmen, archers or silverhelms for example and if they were to be redone to an Island of Blood standard that would be perfect.

I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

Personally it's more a case of wanting to buy things for the first time that are no longer in active production. Much as ol' GW's pricing can be extortionate or baffling (or both) at times, it's still generally better than second hand.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And at relaunch, you’re relying on folks dusting off their new armies, and buying a few bits here and there rather than a wave of Entirely New Armies being bought.

Re-done Soldiery isn’t the same as a New War Wagon or Updated Knights.

I just disagree. GW will want to sell whole new armies - not only at launch, but in the years to come.
I can't imagine the level of ridicule and anti-hype if the big Old World Starter is revealed to include say 2-4 boxes of 2007 era State Troops.

I wouldn't be tempted by a re-release of older kits if there weren't also a framework of new core kits to put them in. And even in that case that would be limited to relatively modern kits like IoB elves, ork boar boys etc.

I certainly wouldn't buy a box of breton knights or kehmri chariots because those are absolutely core to their factions and desperately need a rework by modern standards. I would buy the peasant box or the snake riders though, if the former were to get an overhaul.

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

You mean buying new models with new sculpts and poses and details and refinements?
Or adding to existing collections with the same models
Or getting new models and building them to a higher standard after 10years of hobbying (at the very least).


I mean yeah of course many are going to choose to upgrade, model building and painting is PART of the hobby. Otherwise we'd be using square bits of cardboard on the table.

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

I have the feeling that some of these players ditched their armies soon after 8th edition went belly up and now has to rebuild.

While there will be some new plastic kits, they will not be many to start. New Plastic kits are expensive to make compared to metal and resin kits. I would expect a full re-release of several plastic kits for nearly every line, with one or two kits new plastic kits for new units or center pieces, like the War Wagon. To make everything available from the start, i would not be surprised if metal or, gods forbid, finecast models be made available via mail order because of how cheap it is to run these models.

As to completely new models for whole armies, other than the new armies of Kislev and Cathey, i do not see this happening at all. Mostly because they have not done this with AoS, Cities of Sigmar, Lizardmen, Chaos, and Greenkins still use allot of the old kits. Expectations on new models needs to tempered.

 Paymaster Games wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

I have the feeling that some of these players ditched their armies soon after 8th edition went belly up and now has to rebuild.

While there will be some new plastic kits, they will not be many to start. New Plastic kits are expensive to make compared to metal and resin kits. I would expect a full re-release of several plastic kits for nearly every line, with one or two kits new plastic kits for new units or center pieces, like the War Wagon. To make everything available from the start, i would not be surprised if metal or, gods forbid, finecast models be made available via mail order because of how cheap it is to run these models.

As to completely new models for whole armies, other than the new armies of Kislev and Cathey, i do not see this happening at all. Mostly because they have not done this with AoS, Cities of Sigmar, Lizardmen, Chaos, and Greenkins still use allot of the old kits. Expectations on new models needs to tempered.

I think we really do need to know what GW wants and thinks for the game, I could see a small 3 kits per army release for a lot at the start being enough if done well.
Heroes themselves can be in the kits, then sell some extra resin ones as well. And rerelease some of the standout kits, and a special run for some other ones for each army.
Do the first campaign book for games 500 to 1000, and write the rules so in small games units of minimum size are viable and people can buy into it at reasonable prices and not get stuck starting with a massive army all at once.

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

For me, it's not so much buying things I've already got but the opportunity to grab kits I didn't get (and kicked myself for missing out on).

I really like The Old World setting and follow this project with great interrest.
But honestly, there is no way I will start a new army. I wont be fooled by nostalgia. I know how tedious it is to build up 100+ spearmen to access fun units, and the frustration of trying to manouver them correctly, and the anger when you realise your cavalry is basicly spearmen that take up to much space. And then the foot of Mork thrash half your sword masters unit in one stomp.
Love the setting, hate the game.

That sounds like a 'late' Warhammer issue though.

I mean, WFB was 'more fun' in earlier editions - pre the push to massive units and game breaking magic...

Now that doesn't mean GW will "get it right" this time either, but hope remains!

(For now...)

Should it hit the stores it will have a lesser appeal as a game because R&F has become old-fashioned for the younger generation. So 40+ whales will be again the target demographic.

I don't think I know a single ASOIAF or Conquest player under 40, and I just spent a weekend at a convention playing both of those R&F games.

have to say the only R&F games I have seen younger people playing was Warhammer Fantasy during 6th/7th and Kings of War now

I got me some pistoliers last month, and they came with oval and square basses. And they still look good. I have a lot of wfb army's but will buy some models that i didnt get at the time wfb was a thing

For me eventually it will boil down to two things regarding to future models:

1. Close as possible to classic 6th to 8th edition design
2. Made out of plastic meterial, I dislike to work with resin.

Game wise should be fun and easy to pick up and could have a flavor of wackyness ( like animosity, ancestral grudge, crumvling ), while it should have some amount of complexity.

I love Oldhammer, I do not want rules bloat to sell models.

To me, Kings of War really has a lot going for it....except model design. Also, ASOIAF scratches the need for more complexity. If GW was looking for a place to find a happy medium I think between those two games would be great. They will wind up rehashing the old world just to take us old players out behind the wood-shed and put us out of our misery.

The inclusivity of the game for old timers as well as promising new minis for those that don't have or want the old miniatures will be one of the factors that make or break this game. Pricing (cost of entry) and rules are the other two things that will drive (or not drive) it's success.

So far personally I liked what I've seen. It's been all fluff to this point of course but it feels more grounded in reality than the mortal realms.

What's interesting to me is this article hints at rules/rule design for the undead. First time I've seen it mentioned at all in the preview articles (focused on the fluff) and of course they don't give us any substance with it, but clearly they are designing the minis/rules/fluff concurrently. Wouldn't surprise me if they just kept spoon feeding us fluff updates for the rest of 2023 and started revealing ideas on the rule system next year.

Well I can say that if it requires 200 basic skeleton warriors to fill the core for Tomb Kings with kits that come in boxes of 10 warriors with needless details and costing 40-50€ a box then I can say that it is not fun at all.

So, to get closer to the actual news/article again, did anyone else notice that they seem to refer to an actual spell/ability by name there?
Maybe they are closer to a release than we thought, if they have spell references to name drop…

 Mr_Rose wrote:
So, to get closer to the actual news/article again, did anyone else notice that they seem to refer to an actual spell/ability by name there?
Maybe they are closer to a release than we thought, if they have spell references to name drop…

They also talk about rules and balance - which suggests that they have got quite far.

Tyel wrote:They could just chuck square bases back in the old kits that got round bases however many years back

I have a feeling that if they're rebooting things after X years, they should go 25mm for all infantry.

And this does sort of bleed into Sigmar releases. For example for High Elves, while they may have silly names - the Lumineth Wardens and Dawnriders are amazing models. Would I want to go "go back" to the frankly ancient 6th edition Spearmen and Silver Helms? Not really no. I may not have minded those kits so much 10-15 years ago - but they look decidedly poor today.

I would love to finally get updated, modern, properly-Ulthuan spearmen and archers, but it feels like a pipe dream after all this time.

Fayric wrote:I really like The Old World setting and follow this project with great interrest.
But honestly, there is no way I will start a new army. I wont be fooled by nostalgia. I know how tedious it is to build up 100+ spearmen to access fun units

I would love to finally get updated, modern, properly-Ulthuan spearmen and archers for Dragon Rampant.

I personally find The Old World to be in a weird situation, where my first assumption would be that anyone of suitable age to have loved the original Old World setting of WHFB surely has already moved on to playing one of the several different rank n' flank games that are currently out there, and they just keep the (awesome) Warhammer fiction alive.

Same thing with Mordheim. Tons of fans either still just play the old game, or use different company's rulesets with the OG game setting.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think nostalgia is going to be enough to being me back to GW on this.

Total War Warhammer and the Vermintide games have had a lot of influence on newer people interested in the Old World. I picked up Cities of Sigmar to paint a Talabheim inspired army after play TWWH 1 when it first came out. When Tomb Kings were added to TWWH 2 I searched around for cheap bitz to make a TK inspired Legions of Nagash force.
The interest I would say is definitely there it just needs to be capitalised on before TWWH passes out of current game status.

Total War: Warhammer certainly helped the popularity of the setting. My principal concern is the size of armies/regiments and the functional size of game that the rules are designed for. In order for me to buy in on this I'd really want for unit sizes to be significantly smaller, and the game to be functional at smaller point totals. Ideally I'd like to be able to actually play a normal length, enjoyable game with the contents of an average starter box without it sort of falling apart mechanically. Now, if that could be accomplished with the game scaling well up to 2,000+ point armies as well, that'd be something that would interest me.

It's just not economically reasonable to expect 30 model units to be the minimum and something upwards of 40 or 50 to be 'combat effective'.

Edit: I can paint 40-50 models and have an entire or close to entire 40k army, by comparison.

Ignispacium wrote:
Total War: Warhammer certainly helped the popularity of the setting. My principal concern is the size of armies/regiments and the functional size of game that the rules are designed for. In order for me to buy in on this I'd really want for unit sizes to be significantly smaller, and the game to be functional at smaller point totals. Ideally I'd like to be able to actually play a normal length, enjoyable game with the contents of an average starter box without it sort of falling apart mechanically. Now, if that could be accomplished with the game scaling well up to 2,000+ point armies as well, that'd be something that would interest me.

It's just not economically reasonable to expect 30 model units to be the minimum and something upwards of 40 or 50 to be 'combat effective'.

Edit: I can paint 40-50 models and have an entire or close to entire 40k army, by comparison.

And yet if you run a Tyranid, Ork or Imperial Guard infantry heavy army you're no way near done for 2K points with 40models.

So big model counts do work.
The problem Old World had before was a few things

1) The game didn't "work" well until you hit at least 1.5K points for most armies. With many of them being totally broken below 1K points and the game not even really working or being all that engaging at, say, 500points.

2) As the game dwindled in popularity the number of people remaining were those more heavily invested. So they had a 2K army and wanted to use a 2K army and the games you saw would all be 2K armies etc... So newbies had a huge hill to climb to join that 2K group (or at least hit the 1.5K group).

3) GW did go overboard with numbers. Skaven are a fantastic example of taking the idea and going just too far. You needed legions of slaves for many ideal forces; which were mostly on the table to die ,but required huge numbers.



Now you can address these problems without removing big infantry blocks; in fact we've seen GW do it twice with AoS and 40K
They've marketed, for both, smaller scale skirmish games under their own rules and under their own marketing. Yes Killteam has been around for decades, but right now its not just a page in the book, its got its own book; its own starter sets; its own marketing; game leagues and all. Same for Warcry and Underworlds in AoS.
All 3 of those are ways to get people into the game with really small model counts. Heck all of them have a "1 box army" approach to marketing. You can expand from that, but 1 standard infantry box gets you going - 5 models for Underworld - perhaps 10 or so for Warcry and Killteam.

They've scaled elements of the core rules for different point values. Not huge changes, but they've made adjustments to 1K, 1.5K and 2K systems to try and make the games work better. IT also helps that functionally both 40K and AoS are "skirmish movement" style games rather than big block styles.

The final point is just getting an active playerbase, engaging and growing it and marketing the games. Focusing attention on them to keep them hot, current and played.



When you step back you can also see that as most wargames mature they scale up in model count. The armies we play with today are VAST compared to what they were 20 years ago in 40K. Longer term customers buy more models; longer term games introduce more models and niches and players want to use them; they want to see their stuff on the table. So army size often creeps up. Warmachine did it; Dystopian Wars is slowly doing it; 40K did it, AoS interestingly has gone backward this edition as GW came down insanely hard on big infantry blocks; but I think part of that is AoS being newer and also several armies being very tiny compared to others which are huge so in part some forces are just "spam 1 model" types (eg flesheaters). So there's good reason for GW to push back a bit against growth and curtail it for a time to let the game steady itself and then push for more later.




But in general Old World is also going to be another 30K; so GW is already thinking of it as a niche. A big infantry block niche to fill. If it takes off in a huge way then model counts weren't a concern; if it only grows so big and doesn't any more then perhaps that's one component of the issues it might face