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2023/04/01 13:26:09
Subject: Re:10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
There's a fine line between removing bloat and doing increased consolidation and then just gimping the flavour of the game entirely.
It's really difficult right now to tell where 10th will land on that scale. The cynic in me feels that GW might definitely overreact and hit everything with the same hammer because of the sins of a few factions (Marines...) and how massively unwieldy they became to design and balance around. Like, if they decide to hit the amount of psychic powers in-game across the board because a chapter could have 3 different disciplines to choose from, that's just unfairly screwing over an Aeldari player who actually gets to use a large variety of spells in their army and who was probably drawn to the army in the first place because of the detailed psychic mechanics.
But still we're running off of very little info currently.
Nazi punks feth off
2023/04/01 13:44:45
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
They will do the same thing they did in 8th. Remove all or most cool rules, especialy for the mass popular armies. And then in order to get them back, the players will have to wait and buy the codex. At the same time some dudes in 10th are going to waiting for their non index rules till 6-9 months before 11th starts. Assuming no large scale wars, pandemics etc.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2023/04/01 14:44:23
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
alextroy wrote: There were no Chapter Tactics in the 8th Edition Indexes. Blood Angels were red Marines with a few extra units.
They weren't called Chapter Tactics, but there were additional rules.
The Blood Angels had Black Rage in addition to their own Psychic discipline on top of unit units and wargear. The Dark Angels had Unforgiven and Jink and their own Psychic discipline to go along with chapter units and wargear. So the framework was there.
I certainly hope we do not go back to the dreary days of 3rd and 4th edition. Since all the decisions have been made by the developers I suppose we just have to wait and see. I could be happy with 8th Ed era Index levels of differentiation.
No doubt they've scaled things back. Aaaaaand then they will bring it back.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2023/04/01 17:42:11
Subject: Re:10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
I forgot about the special Psychic Disciplines, but the other rules were for chapter specific units. They were not extended to normal Space Marine units.
Black Rage was on Death Company units only, not as an additional rule for Tactical Squads. Jink was on Ravenwing units like Sammael, but not Bike Squads. Unforgiven was on Deathwing and most characters and was an exception at being added to select normal units.
So for the most part, the Chapter Tactics were mostly ignored in the 8th Edition Indexes. Do need to make a special call out to Space Wolves, who shared almost no non-Primaris Infantry units with the rest of the Space Marine. Space Wolves gotta howl.
2023/04/01 22:36:57
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So will cross faction units that are the same unit, but named differentlly, still count as separate?
I know I'm assuming 10th will be soupy, but still. If a Faction of 1lk sons and a faction of DG get together in a single list, can they still take ro3 squads of their respective Terminators?
This is where I think keywords can save us. If it has the "x" keyword, you can have 3 of those per list. So no more 9 dreadnaught lists, etc.
I get this will piss off a fair many of the group, but it resolves the ever nagging issue of "Am I allowed to break the obvious rule with this specific unit?"
IF it wears terminator armor, it's a terminator, what it's armed with has no bearing. If it's a Dreadnaught, it's a dreadnaught. Doesn't matter if it was DOAT tech, or a Custodes Super Walker, you get three key word dreadnaught units. And done.
Obviously troops escape this.
There is no souping, they've been very clear about this so far with only GSC, Knights and summoned daemons as exceptions listed.
While I admit that you are correct, I would add an addendum: Currently. As in GW has been very clear that CURRENTLY only X factions can soup. Nothing is permanent with rules in 40k. You know that. All it takes is for them to change their minds.
2023/04/01 23:39:24
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Karol wrote: They will do the same thing they did in 8th. Remove all or most cool rules, especialy for the mass popular armies. And then in order to get them back, the players will have to wait and buy the codex. At the same time some dudes in 10th are going to waiting for their non index rules till 6-9 months before 11th starts. Assuming no large scale wars, pandemics etc.
There were no cool rules in 7th.
2023/04/02 07:48:57
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So will cross faction units that are the same unit, but named differentlly, still count as separate?
I know I'm assuming 10th will be soupy, but still. If a Faction of 1lk sons and a faction of DG get together in a single list, can they still take ro3 squads of their respective Terminators?
This is where I think keywords can save us. If it has the "x" keyword, you can have 3 of those per list. So no more 9 dreadnaught lists, etc.
I get this will piss off a fair many of the group, but it resolves the ever nagging issue of "Am I allowed to break the obvious rule with this specific unit?"
IF it wears terminator armor, it's a terminator, what it's armed with has no bearing. If it's a Dreadnaught, it's a dreadnaught. Doesn't matter if it was DOAT tech, or a Custodes Super Walker, you get three key word dreadnaught units. And done.
Obviously troops escape this.
There is no souping, they've been very clear about this so far with only GSC, Knights and summoned daemons as exceptions listed.
While I admit that you are correct, I would add an addendum: Currently. As in GW has been very clear that CURRENTLY only X factions can soup. Nothing is permanent with rules in 40k. You know that. All it takes is for them to change their minds.
This is the weirdest stance to take, have you just not been reading any of the new edition material and had to try and justify yourself, or are you genuinely concerned about unit profile ambiguity across factions that can't interact on a "what if"?
2023/04/02 09:43:08
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Karol wrote: They will do the same thing they did in 8th. Remove all or most cool rules, especialy for the mass popular armies. And then in order to get them back, the players will have to wait and buy the codex. At the same time some dudes in 10th are going to waiting for their non index rules till 6-9 months before 11th starts. Assuming no large scale wars, pandemics etc.
There were no cool rules in 7th.
Corsairs would like a word.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2023/04/02 13:42:29
Subject: Re:10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Insectum7 wrote: Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.
Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/02 14:22:43
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2023/04/02 14:27:38
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I wish GW would just show us a detachment sheet or two. Would give us a much clearer idea of what we’re playing with.
Yeah, their slow-burn approach feels like a drag already, and it will probably go on like this for four additional weeks...
Probably? Were you not here for the last two edition updates
I expect we will get 0-4 pieced of solid information daily throughout April and May. The amount of rehashed information even solid article (like the 3/30 one on army construction) will boggle the mind. If you don't want to watch the drip feed coffee brew, come back in June.
2023/04/02 14:59:04
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I wish GW would just show us a detachment sheet or two. Would give us a much clearer idea of what we’re playing with.
Yeah, their slow-burn approach feels like a drag already, and it will probably go on like this for four additional weeks...
Probably? Were you not here for the last two edition updates
I expect we will get 0-4 pieced of solid information daily throughout April and May. The amount of rehashed information even solid article (like the 3/30 one on army construction) will boggle the mind. If you don't want to watch the drip feed coffee brew, come back in June.
'Probably' because Warhammer Fest starts on April 29th, which is more or less exactly four weeks away, and it's not completely unthinkable that they offer a flip-through of the book or even trial games of 10th then. It's the optimistic case, at worst it will be months of this slow slog. But i'm an optimist at heart
2023/04/02 16:39:12
Subject: Re:10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Not Online!!! wrote: Consolidation is a good thing,
Consolidation also can improve balance. There i said it.
Here's hoping they at least consolidate the marine datasheets. Otherwise we might see the 'Oops! All Captains' army running around.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
I think it was in 8th, but with a little filler and the right detachments I put together and played a seven samurai style marine captain list. Obviously very choppy, but lousy at shooting/objectives. Fun for a lark, but not competitive.
Now I wasn’t trying to break the game, just try a fun concept with my assorted minis. The all smash-hammer list might be able to brute force it’s way to victory.
But I 100% agree that marines need a LOT of consolidation in datasheets. No excuse for the amount of bloat on those. OK, the excuse is actually one sheet per kit, NMNR. Still, no reason to have 2 separate gravis captain sheets as an example.
Consolidating Primaris into a data sheet with options would be interesting- we've already had a trial with the Deathwatch, where after the first five "Base" troops, Fortis teams can take any model in intercessor armour, Indomitor teams can take anyone in Gravis armour and Spectrus teams can take anyone in Phobos.
Obviously the construction requirements would be different, but it is cool to build mixed units. It takes away some of the staleness of monoloadout Primaris.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/02 16:55:27
2023/04/02 16:59:57
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
PenitentJake wrote: Consolidating Primaris into a data sheet with options would be interesting- we've already had a trial with the Deathwatch, where after the first five "Base" troops, Fortis teams can take any model in intercessor armour, Indomitor teams can take anyone in Gravis armour and Spectrus teams can take anyone in Phobos.
Obviously the construction requirements would be different, but it is cool to build mixed units. It takes away some of the staleness of monoloadout Primaris.
primaris as a mono concept shouldn't ever have been a thing period.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2023/04/02 17:28:27
Subject: Re:10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Insectum7 wrote: Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.
Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.
Lolwut?
The last edition (pre 8th) that I bought a SM codex for was 4th, but I absolutely assure you they had none of that. You could deck a marine captain out to tear through chaff and have a reasonably shot at smooshing most MEQ characters, but they were still likely to get bodied by big bads like hive tyrants / carnifex / greater demon. Not we’re they the equal of serious duelists such as Hesperix, Drazahar, or a brood lord.
2023/04/02 18:29:16
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Insectum7 wrote: Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.
Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.
SM Captains with WS7 and S and T5 were last seen in 2nd ed, I believe:
Bloodthirster
M6 WS10 BS10 S8 T7 W10 I8 A10 Ld10
Wears Chaos Heavy armour (3+ save on 2D6).
Yes, you could deck out Captains to be pretty awesome, but those 3 wounds were all they got. They did not go toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
2023/04/02 19:27:50
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Greater Daemons didn't have access to all the fields Marines could get. Those 3 wounds are way more durable than you'd think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/02 19:28:07
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2023/04/02 20:06:32
Subject: 10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Detachments replace FoC and subfactions
Honestly, I'm all for all character lists as long as they're fun and not oppressive. So, not lists of just flying hive tyrants, commander battlesuits of custodes jetbike captains or the like. Just a bunch of captains can make for an interesting scenario and I've fought such battles between a small group of heroes and the faceless masses of goons (my guardsmen). It was fun to see how many they managed to take down for instance.
Insectum7 wrote: Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.
Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.
SM Captains with WS7 and S and T5 were last seen in 2nd ed, I believe:
Insectum7 wrote: Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.
Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.
"Easily". . .
You had to beef them up quite a bit to manage a chance.
And that SM character could still be one-shotted with a Heavy Bolter. Right now we've got SM Characters that can take a max-damage, unsaved Lascannon to the face.
But straight up, if you asked me if a Captain should be close to as tough as a Carnifex, you'd get a big "NO" from me.
Combat Drugs, Terminator Armour with Powerfist, Conversion or Refractor Field, and a Vortex Grenade. Advantage Space Marine Captain
Basically just lob your Vortex Grenade and hope for the best.
Always the Vortex grenade, sure. . . But that Powerfist only did a single point of damage. That takes a while to get through 10w. For CC you'd really want Lightning Claws for the Parrys anyways. Otherwise the 'Thirster is just more likely to win each round of CC and kill him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/02 20:26:17
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