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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Dysartes wrote:
Question for those who have existing teams with new rules - how similar are the new rules to the previous edition?

Wondering how practical it might be for "the community" to port over Compendium teams to the new edition.


I think it would fairly easy to do the port. The bespoke teams that received the most changes were the season 1 and 2 teams, and of those, it was the ones that received numerous balance changes to the rules over the last 3 years that are the most different now.

The compendium received very few balance changes, as they are simpler to begin with. I would go hog-wild in "updating" the compendium to the new edition, which mostly entails replacing special rules with their current keyword and replacing weapon profiles with their current profile.

Henry R. 
   
Made in de
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Dudeface wrote:
 parakuribo wrote:
I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?


Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.


Sure, but Lictors or Genestealers should do at least similar stuff. I mean, Gellerpox Infected and Fellgor Reavers aren't exactly paragons for operatives, too.


Prometheum5 wrote:Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.


It was a mixed team - the really mean guys and the leader were Genestealers.

It's dissapointing though that both GSC teams can't even take a single (normal) Purestrain or Acolythe/Metamorph. Or even an Abberrant as bodyguard.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Dryaktylus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 parakuribo wrote:
I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?


Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.


Sure, but Lictors or Genestealers should do at least similar stuff. I mean, Gellerpox Infected and Fellgor Reavers aren't exactly paragons for operatives, too.


Prometheum5 wrote:Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.


It was a mixed team - the really mean guys and the leader were Genestealers.

It's dissapointing though that both GSC teams can't even take a single (normal) Purestrain or Acolythe/Metamorph. Or even an Abberrant as bodyguard.


I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines, or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish. You can't really include most other species as synapse becomes an issue.

I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






No reason the Hive Mind can’t pop out particularly clever Gaunts for such missions.

Their original background, going back to Rogue Trader when they were called Hunter-Slayers described them as being designed for, well, hunting and slaying interlopers aboard ship, using their smaller stature and squishy bodies to fit where nobody else could, the better to launch ambushes.

It would make some sense for a breed of Termagant, known as the Hunter Slayer have greater intelligence and autonomy for such a task, which could be seen as wasteful on those Termagants whose sole purpose is to die gloriously and make the enemy expend as much ammo as possible.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





I'd love to torment other players with a Neurolictor & Von-Ryan's Leapers team. That would be a good laugh.

I take it the compendium teams won't be available as free pdfs? I'm cool regardless as I have the models for at least three of the specific teams( Void-Dancers, Angels of Death, Blades of Khaine ) but just curious, thats all.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







As far as we're aware, no return of the Compendium teams at all - which is why I was asking to see how different KT21 and KT24 teams seemed to be.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in de
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ripper kill team please.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Dryaktylus wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.


I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.

Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.

Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.

So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Oakland, CA

Oooo, Zoat Kill Team.

We'll never see it but it would be fun to put on the table!
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Dudeface wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.


I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.

Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.

Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.

So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.

I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".

I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.

For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.

As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/10/03 09:31:04


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Dudeface wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.


I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.

Yep.

Worth remember all the fuss over "my 40K faction doesn't have a Kill Team anymore" next time someone sighs about GW doing a models first, rules second approach to most of their games. This is what happens when you flip it around.

They're focused on making a good game and then putting out models to support that, rather than the other way around.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Haighus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.


I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.

Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.

Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.

So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.

Spoiler:

I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".

I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.

For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.


As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.


I was there during 4th, it was 100% 40k lite, it used all the core rules of 40k in the 40k setting with a layer of additional mechanics for the alarms and brute squads. It also had to cater for 40k armies and models in 40k army ranges and whilst they could have excluded one faction they opted not to as it's appeal was to all. It was a fun extra for the core game to encourage beginners to play with a box or two of squaddies.

But as you note they recognised Nids don't really fit in with the setting and as a result needed the rules change and bespoke missions, which as you again note would be ideal here. Which is exactly why it won't happen imo. KT in my perspective is intended as another fairly (open to interpretation) balanced competitive game GW want to be pick up and play, so they're unlikely to produce a kill team that requires special missions to make narrative sense.

The Great Gun isn't going to be skillfully hacked by a lictor operating under instructions from the hive mind after ingesting the senior tech priests brains to turn it off. The hive mind isn't likely to send just a dozen creatures to go chew through a pipe. It'll launch a massive orbital invasion as method A and as a distraction then direct the swarms to the specific locations to remove the biomass operating the gun.

I'd welcome any fluff of a Nid kill team doing anything other than assassinations.
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
 Haighus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines


I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.

Dudeface wrote:
or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.


They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).

Dudeface wrote:
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.


Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.


I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.

Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.

Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.

So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.

I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".

I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.

For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.

As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.


I was there during 4th, it was 100% 40k lite, it used all the core rules of 40k in the 40k setting with a layer of additional mechanics for the alarms and brute squads. It also had to cater for 40k armies and models in 40k army ranges and whilst they could have excluded one faction they opted not to as it's appeal was to all. It was a fun extra for the core game to encourage beginners to play with a box or two of squaddies.

"It was 100% 40k lite but had a bunch of extra rules making it markedly more complex than core 40k". Rules-wise Kill Team back then was 40k heavy. It used 40k rules as a base but the asymmetric play made it feel more different in scope than modern kill team is between symmetrical forces.

It was small in scale but doesn't mean it was a simpler gateway game for people with small collections. Combat patrol was the game mode for new players with a handful of units. Kill team was supposed to be a thematic modelling opportunity for dedicated players.

But as you note they recognised Nids don't really fit in with the setting and as a result needed the rules change and bespoke missions, which as you again note would be ideal here. Which is exactly why it won't happen imo. KT in my perspective is intended as another fairly (open to interpretation) balanced competitive game GW want to be pick up and play, so they're unlikely to produce a kill team that requires special missions to make narrative sense.

The Great Gun isn't going to be skillfully hacked by a lictor operating under instructions from the hive mind after ingesting the senior tech priests brains to turn it off. The hive mind isn't likely to send just a dozen creatures to go chew through a pipe. It'll launch a massive orbital invasion as method A and as a distraction then direct the swarms to the specific locations to remove the biomass operating the gun.

I'd welcome any fluff of a Nid kill team doing anything other than assassinations.

Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.

We also know 'Nids target specific infrastructure that is slowing their advance. On Amphelion IV, the Inquisitorial expedition found the whole place powered down deactivating the containment fences. The escaped 'Nids had infiltrated the generators and switched them off. After the Imperial forces reactivated them they targeted them again in later attacks.

Given the existing missions either make no sense to start with (why are both sides trying to deactivate the same firewalls?) or are already written explicitly from an Imperial perspective (particularly notable in missions like Consecrate ground), you already need to adapt the lore as given for other forces. I see no reason why a Tyranid kill team wouldn't be capable of those actions.

For example, the Secure archeotech mission can represent any valuable item that is portable and could, for Tyranids, be a valuable specimen or corpse they are retrieving. The mission lore is about an Imperial team retrieving human archeotech. Why would Eldar or Necrons (other than Trazyn) retrieve such low-tech gear? They'd just destroy it, it isn't any use to them. But the mission is symmetrical for simplicity. Or, you adapt the lore to it being a piece of Eldar tech or a piece of Necron tech that can't teleport for some reason or a piece of valuable biomass.... see what I mean? Or lets try another example- why does a Tau vs a LoV kill team care about consecrating the ground in their secular societies? That one actually makes more sense for 'Nids as they could be infesting something. Why is it Tyranids specifically that break the immersion for generic missions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/10/03 13:37:17


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Tyranids will probably end up as GW's favoured faction as hostiles for solo-coop missions.

Although sabotage-wise they can disrupt the warp and are inspired by classic swarm movies like Phase Four and ALIENS, cut wires and the like. Even in Starship Troopers, they didn't just "suck his brains out" but also made the poor fellow send a false message, to lead the troopers into an ambush! And lets not forget the Raptors from Jurassic Park....

Spoiler:



...its all silly nonsense of course, but 40K boils down to appealing to fans of sci-fi movies and novels. If Dinoriders suddenly makes a comeback and takes the sci-fi world by storm, then GW will bang out Exodites like they're preparing to invade the Hoth System.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Haighus wrote:

Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.


I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

deano2099 wrote:
 Haighus wrote:

Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.


I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.

Maybe, but we got the Eldar space pirates before the space hulk season so there is hope. To be honest, most of the teams have not been particularly themed to the combat environment.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
2nd Lieutenant





deano2099 wrote:
 Haighus wrote:

Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.


I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.


We also didn't get the traditional enemies of the genestealers in space hulk either. Heck we didn't get Space Marines of any type (for a change).
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Space Hulk is life, and we ain't been living.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut





IIRC, a fairly large part of the "Devastation of Baal" book is dedicated to a Lictor infiltrating the Blood Angels Chapter Fortress in order to disable the shields and allow for ground assault.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

I think nids would make a great asymmetrical OpFor. Instead of classic KTs give them monsters and mooks. While they might not be able to slot into every single scenario, there are plenty they would be great with.

The KT needs to clear it’s way through the gaunts to poison the spawning pool.

Playing cat and mouse with the lictor in the shield generator.

Sneak behind enemy lines to assassinate the synapse creature

As an army nids don’t lend themselves to evenly matched mirror balanced TAC forces. But narratively, there is a TON of space to tell stories.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Somewhere in Canada

As others have said, I think Nids will be the ideal Solo/ Coop antagonists.

That said, playing a Cult that grows from a single brood of 'Stealers is AWESOME. GW doesn't want to do it, because the GSC lifestyle gets cringy after the infection, since growth of the cult from that point on is standard reproduction according to the anatomy of the host species. Genestealers infect humans with DNA, but hybrids (whether Acolytes, Neophytes, Metamorphs, character or even Aberrants and the Purestrains of subsequent Brood Cycles) are all produced via standard sexual reproduction.

Gestation and maturation of these offspring is very rapidly accelerated, but conception is consistent with standard biological process for the host species.

I do still think a 'Nid team composed of leapers and stealers is viable. Flesh hooks are "ladders" and spore mines are "grenades," and these organism are designed to collect information and destroy enemy infrastructure.

But I think GW will leave them as antagonists for PVE/ Coop. And you know what? I can still follow the brood cycle just as easily to grow a cult when models are included this way.
   
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Nids are much more than wild beasts that some of you seem to think.

They take infiltration and recon to new levels... vanguard organisms can be planted on a planet hidden for a long time to observe movement, they can even hibernate on inhospitable space hulks for undetermined periods of time, both rippers and trygons can dig beneath the foundations of given fort and lictors can simply live behind enemy lines unnoticed.

I dont know about you but relegating nids to brainless beasts seems a bit simplistic.

Another point is that new Gaunts have one-of biomorph weapons sprues, meaning the specialisation of unique members of a brood are more welcome than ever. Kill team? yes.

Edit. anecdotal evidence if an octopus can unscrew a bottle to reach food are you telling me a anthropomorphic octopoid like a lictor cannot use its fingers to click on a button to get to their prey behind the doors?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/10/04 17:16:24


   
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 NAVARRO wrote:
Nids are much more than wild beasts that some of you seem to think.

They take infiltration and recon to new levels... vanguard organisms can be planted on a planet hidden for a long time to observe movement, they can even hibernate on inhospitable space hulks for undetermined periods of time, both rippers and trygons can dig beneath the foundations of given fort and lictors can simply live behind enemy lines unnoticed.

I dont know about you but relegating nids to brainless beasts seems a bit simplistic.

Another point is that new Gaunts have one-of biomorph weapons sprues, meaning the specialisation of unique members of a brood are more welcome than ever. Kill team? yes.

Edit. anecdotal evidence if an octopus can unscrew a bottle to reach food are you telling me a anthropomorphic octopoid like a lictor cannot use its fingers to click on a button to get to their prey behind the doors?


I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb. That a trygon is not a kill team. Rippers need synapse control, gaunts need synapse control, the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.

Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use. Unless new gaunts etc. With synapse capability come to pass, they make no sense, nor do rippers or gargoyles or whatever.

This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.
   
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England

CorwinB wrote:
IIRC, a fairly large part of the "Devastation of Baal" book is dedicated to a Lictor infiltrating the Blood Angels Chapter Fortress in order to disable the shields and allow for ground assault.

I looked this up. The Lictor snuck into the fortress monastery, homed in on the generator powering the void shield array, and destroyed it by dissolving a critical component using a bespoke bioadaption to liquefy its entire body into potent acid. The passage specifically relays how the Hive Mind isn't really aware of the lictor individually in the same way we are not aware of our cells, but it was still able to be spawned for the specific task of infiltrating a heavily-defended base and sabotaging critical infrastructure via a precision attack. The lictor died in the mission.

Now, I think this does highlight a potential issue- Tyranid kill teams exist, but they are spawned as disposable assets for a task and are unlikely to survive the task. There isn't a team that can grow and gain experience per se, although I suppose you could interpret that as the Hive Mind learning from the previous mission and spawning each version of the team to be a bit better adapted for its next mission.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
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Dudeface wrote:

I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb.

So animals these days have proven that they can, colour code, solve puzzles, arrange objects some even copy human voice by mimicking, observing etc. Are you telling me a super evolved brainy space creature cannot mimic a key combination he had previous gathered knowledge about? It's like saying Lictors cannot for some bizarre reason understand cause and effect on any given situations. Im not saying a lictor will understand in and outs of such devices but if in stealth he sees a guard man entering a bunker by typing some keys he for sure can copy that action. Lictor goal would still be the same and like an octopus he would just use a form of logical thinking to get to the food.

Dudeface wrote:
That a trygon is not a kill team.
Its not but the point was nids understand and temper with non organic objects to reach their objectives... In this case they are manipulating the environment and understand the idea of what foundations do to a structure. Thats not an action of wild beasts. Thats logical behaviour.

Dudeface wrote:
Rippers need synapse control, gaunts need synapse control, the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.

So your beef is the synapse rule? Well could not neurolictors, lictors, stealers a prime warrior, neurogaunts etc be some kind of synaptic presence in Killteam rules? I dont see that much of a problem, the leader of the Tyranid KT could easily bring it in to the field.

Dudeface wrote:
Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use. Unless new gaunts etc. With synapse capability come to pass, they make no sense, nor do rippers or gargoyles or whatever.

Sure they travel the universe in vast biovessels strip a planet to its mineral core in a freakish efficient way and display really complex behaviours because well they are clueless beasts right? From a narrative point of of view I understand the appeal of " ravaging beasts devour! " but Tyranids as the "faster evolving race in 40k" would by now have some immensely clever superbrains.

Dudeface wrote:
This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.

I tend not to dwell in knowing what people accept or not. Im telling you Elite was even part of Tyranid 40k army structure... They have elite creatures and the goals are still the same, even if they need to unscrew a jar to get to their target.

You may well say they have no interest into creating the traditional mechanic machines, but thats probably because their organic biomorphs manipulations do that for them already, does not mean they don't identify what that mechanic machine is for the enemy and by destroying it it becomes easier/faster to consume the planet.

   
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So, Orks vs Ratlings & Ogryn tomorrow.

Actually, this could be very likely as they can throw in Rein & Raus from BSF, and they are nice little models. Straight away it would have a sniper and a well equiped scout, I suppose. Grappling hook you can travel quick and a scanner...well, you can scan things!

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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Let's take all the other discussion to a thread of its own please? Thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/10/04 21:24:59




Fatum Iustum Stultorum



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Somewhere in Canada

Dudeface wrote:


I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb.


If a Lictor sinks its feeder tendrils into the brain of an enemy who knows the code, yes, it absolutely can- that's how Lictors work.

Dudeface wrote:

the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.


I mostly argee; the only point of contention for me is that now there's a Lictor family- Von Ryan's Leapers, Neurolictors and Deathleaper all fit into the Lictor family. I skipped the Nid dex this edition, so I'm not sure how much of the Lictor's mind reading via feeder tendril those variants retain, but it's not a stretch.

Synapse control IS a valid point against Nids outside Stealers and the Lictor family, but in previous editions, biomorphs have been able to grant synapse control. If GW wanted to, releasing a Nid KT could be very easy and very fluffy.

Dudeface wrote:

Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use.


Again, sort of true... But Nids are smart enough to know that if the biomass is on the other side of a door, they need to open the door to get to it. They understand target priority, etc. It is true, however that non-vanguard Nids do usually require synapse control... But again, that's a matter of a biomorph upgrade sprue, which has a precedent. And of course, Vanguard organisms (Stealers + Lictor family) don't need synapse control.

Dudeface wrote:

This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.


No, I think people readily accept it because the all or nothing nature of a Nid attack, the hivemind-nature of the species, and the lack of personal identities among the individual creatures make them suitable for "Brute squad/ Sentry" style play- Not because they couldn't also make an effective Kill Team. It doesn't have to be either/ or - it can be both, and while I can't speculate on the opinions of others, I'd like to see both.
   
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Exeter, UK

Dudeface wrote:
I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb.


One does pretty much just that in the Book of Martyrs novel.
   
 
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