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I think it's asking for too much to think that if we'd done X differently in Iraq ISIS wouldn't have happened (talk about beating yourself up). ISIS isn't just a product of Iraq but of the history of the Middle East, international politics, and radicalism in the region. Changing the course of Iraq in 1991, or 2004 might not have had any effect on what we have right now beyond the superficial.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But there also isn't really any evidence to suggest that Saddam would've been any more successful in preventing IS gaining a foothold to begin with.

Er, yes there is.

In 1991, after the Gulf War ceasefire, he lost control of huge areas of Iraq in an uprising against him, with the Iraqi forces often surrendering or deserting to join the rebels, with the exception of the Republican Guard. Internal struggles, lack of heavy weaponry (especially anti-aircraft weaponry) and lack of foreign support meant that he could put it down and regain control.

As for the death tolls, well, one mass grave which resulted from this uprising and the reprisals enacted on the people of Iraq after it was put down is estimated to contain around ten thousand people. That is only one of many sites and figures put the death toll of the uprising and resultant repression at over one hundred thousand, ranging up to around one hundred and eighty thousand

This is it. You literally demonstrate in your post that he has perfectly good experience in successfully putting down the sorts of trouble you're describing.

ISIS has a lot of captured weaponry, a proper command structure and a means of gathering resources and supplies. It is entirely possible they would have done just as well in Saddams Iraq as they did in non-Saddam Iraq.

If America hadn't flooded the place with equipment, it wouldn't have been there to steal. Not to mention that as a dictator, he would have responded a lot quicker than the half arsed Iraqi government of the time did to ISIL. And the core of ISIL's HQ wouldn't be made up of Sunni muslims fired from the Iraqi Army/Intelligence because they'd still be in charge under Saddam.

In order to presuppose the same thing would still have happened with regards to ISIL whoever was in charge requires a bunch of other factors to somehow miraculously fall into place. You'd need another event to cause vast internal disruption, a necessary rallying cause to bring fighters from outside, a cataclysmic occurrence that somehow forces the Sunnis to swap places with the Shias whilst still keeping Saddam in control, etc.

I mean, come on, you're effectively saying, 'Ah, how do you know Hitler wouldn't have taken over in Germany even if we hadn't deposed the Kaiser?!' The chain of causation is pretty clear. If you don't remove them, the likelihood of the other happening is pretty small. That's not to say another revolution wouldn't have occurred, but it would bear little resemblance to ISIS, in the same way the communists taking over in germany post war would probably have looked very different to the Nazis.

It should also be kept in mind that many of these places have been loci of conflict for millenia.

The armies fighting over Mosul are fighting on literally the eaxct same ground that Alexander and Darius III fought on, ground that was the heartland and capital of the brutal Assyrian Empire which was destroyed by Babylon and her allies centuries before Alexander was born, land the Akkadians rule for millenia before that, land the Mongols swept through a through and conquered in the 1200's.

There's a looooooooooooooong history of brutal conflict in these places and many of those pressures still exist.

Oh yea.

You know, I'm sitting here right now, hiding from my kids, because it hurts to much to look at them.

I was told today that I'm leaving in a handful of weeks to join this fight, instead of the 5 months I was supposed to have.

I find it amusing with how easily others are, just sitting back, pointing fingers, complaining about things that happened in the past, and how it's all someone else's fault, etc... etc... etc...

I'm sitting here trying to tell figure out how to tell my children that in a few weeks they won't see daddy for 6 months.

You know what I care about? That there is an organization of people over there who are so barbaric that I have to be torn away from my family, to take the fight to them. What I care about is how we're going to get this fight done. I'm sick of the finger pointing, the endless hours of armchair generals pontificating about crap they don't have a freaking clue about, first hand or otherwise.

Fact of the matter, ISIS exists. They are a brutal organization that needs to be stomped out, utterly destroyed. It would be nice to see a little more discussion regarding that topic. A little more support for those of us who are doing that work. It would be nice to see people seem to actually care about the sacrifices I am making with my life, the way my children will be hurting, because of these barbarians, for a change.

I am sorry you're going to be away from your family yet again my man.

 djones520 wrote:
You know, I'm sitting here right now, hiding from my kids, because it hurts to much to look at them.

I was told today that I'm leaving in a handful of weeks to join this fight, instead of the 5 months I was supposed to have.

I find it amusing with how easily others are, just sitting back, pointing fingers, complaining about things that happened in the past, and how it's all someone else's fault, etc... etc... etc...

I'm sitting here trying to tell figure out how to tell my children that in a few weeks they won't see daddy for 6 months.

You know what I care about? That there is an organization of people over there who are so barbaric that I have to be torn away from my family, to take the fight to them. What I care about is how we're going to get this fight done. I'm sick of the finger pointing, the endless hours of armchair generals pontificating about crap they don't have a freaking clue about, first hand or otherwise.

Fact of the matter, ISIS exists. They are a brutal organization that needs to be stomped out, utterly destroyed. It would be nice to see a little more discussion regarding that topic. A little more support for those of us who are doing that work. It would be nice to see people seem to actually care about the sacrifices I am making with my life, the way my children will be hurting, because of these barbarians, for a change.

Dude, I don't want you and your comrades to be sent there period. I don't want your lives to be sacrificed, because I fear they will be sacrificed in vain. What I fear most is an Iraq Occupation 2, that drags on for another decade and costs the lives of thousands more American and British and NATO lives. I don't want our militaries to get bogged down fighting yet another insurgency.

That doesn't mean I don't support you, of course I do. You, and all our soldiers (whether British or American or whatever) have my full support and respect and gratitude. I just think its a mistake. Its our political leaders and their decision to send you to war that I don't support. Feth them. Feth all of them. (our political leaders that is).


Good luck, I hope you come home safe.

Look, I'm sorry for that everyone. It wasn't fair of me to do.

Just got a lot pent up in me right now, and some of it spilled out, so again, I'm sorry.

No one wants to see estern troops deployed unless its utterly nessacery.

One. Why spend billions on Iraq's army...its fething useless it seems anyway.

Two, we have baggage, Iraq, two wars, former Brittish empire, and more, its just baggage, and baggage tends to not be forgotten.

Three, too many deaths, plain and simple. Too much blood and treasure spent.

Isis are cancer. Plain and simple. Hope no more lives have to be lost ending these phycopaths from there rampage.

There lives can go to hell. Where they deserve.



...
I don,t think apologies are needed. Good luck and a safe return.

 djones520 wrote:
Look, I'm sorry for that everyone. It wasn't fair of me to do.

Just got a lot pent up in me right now, and some of it spilled out, so again, I'm sorry.

I value your life too much, I can't in good conscience agree with the policy to send you there (again). I don't think its right that you're being sent there. I'm 26, and I was roughly 12 when the Iraq War began, the sort of age when you begin to become politically aware. The Iraq War, and the whole fallout that followed, from the "dodgy dossier", to the occupation, to the political failings and poor funding and mistreatment of (British) soldiers, has hardened my entire attitude to war. I'm extremely cynical, and I blame the Iraq War and New Labour for that.

And no hard feelings, don't worry about it. No apology is necessary. I can't possibly imagine what you're feeling right now.


Are you being sent on a combat deployment, are you and your regiment going to be directly involved in combat? Or is it more of a support role, like training Iraqis? I really hope its the latter. I don't think its right to send you to fight Iraq's battles.

 djones520 wrote:
Look, I'm sorry for that everyone. It wasn't fair of me to do.

Just got a lot pent up in me right now, and some of it spilled out, so again, I'm sorry.

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for buddy.

Palmyra liberated




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palmyra liberated

Palmyra liberated....again.....

Godspeed djones520

If it was up to me, none of our troops would be going.

Again... Not losing it again might be a good idea.

Still Mosul second half to recapture?

Then there's Stalingrad 2 which will be raqqa. They had years to expect a attack and plan accordingly.

The middle east is like playing wheel of fortune. But every category on the wheel has been replaced by a variety of dildo's that are gonna go where the sun doesn't shine and every choice you make, including leaving the whole thing alone gets you a spin on the wheel.

Hey guys, just wanted to be open about it, since I made a big deal out of it. That short notice deployment I get was cancelled, for me at least.

I will still be going over there to take part in this fight, but it's some time down the road as of right now. Thanks again for the support.

 djones520 wrote:
Hey guys, just wanted to be open about it, since I made a big deal out of it. That short notice deployment I get was cancelled, for me at least.

I will still be going over there to take part in this fight, but it's some time down the road as of right now. Thanks again for the support.

I'm glad to hear it.

 djones520 wrote:
Hey guys, just wanted to be open about it, since I made a big deal out of it. That short notice deployment I get was cancelled, for me at least.

I will still be going over there to take part in this fight, but it's some time down the road as of right now. Thanks again for the support.

good news!

 djones520 wrote:
Hey guys, just wanted to be open about it, since I made a big deal out of it. That short notice deployment I get was cancelled, for me at least.

I will still be going over there to take part in this fight, but it's some time down the road as of right now. Thanks again for the support.

Good news dude!

Leathernecks have officially landed in Syria.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/14246/us-marines-just-landed-syria-joshua-yasmeh

 Frazzled wrote:
Leathernecks have officially landed in Syria.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/14246/us-marines-just-landed-syria-joshua-yasmeh

Don't forget that Clinton was more likely to get the US into another war than Trump though!

 Frazzled wrote:
Leathernecks have officially landed in Syria.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/14246/us-marines-just-landed-syria-joshua-yasmeh

...and they've brought the artilleries. Dang...

Who pissed off Mattis?
<spoiler'ed for language>



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Leathernecks have officially landed in Syria.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/14246/us-marines-just-landed-syria-joshua-yasmeh

Don't forget that Clinton was more likely to get the US into another war than Trump though!

O.o

We were already there dude...

We had special forces there, not conventional forces with heavy metal engaged in direct conventional battle

Not that I'm against employing 155mm medicine to the ISIS folks that need it, but it does represent a change and an opportunity for escalation, one that many (on all ends of the political spectrun) are not entirely comfortable with and that both Clintom and Trump was disparaged as possibly enacting by some.

Well its also announced US main battle forces in er a completely different country...Syria.

I am surprised this isn't all over the news. Plus I think this is the first time we have been in the same country with the Rooskies theoretically on the same side since the BIG BIIMSHOW!

This is certainty a big change. However if they are to retake the enemy capital off them.

There going to need somthibf heavy to crack a city they had 2-3 years to plan to defend. That's alot of time to prepare. Build, tunnel and fortify.

The city is going to a rather tough target.

Bomb them with all the leftover caramel corn from Holloween. That should do the trick.

I'm all for slaughtering Isis. I just hope that this doesn't escalate things.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm all for slaughtering Isis. I just hope that this doesn't escalate things.

It would almost have to escalate in order to wipeout ISIS... imo.

I just hope we don't get bogged down on "nation building" and all that jazz...

Many people have a mistaken perception of ISIS as they consider them as the evil monsters of these days. They're not the real enemy, they're just a part of it. The real enemy is Islamic fondamentalism.

It's like considering SS the real enemy and not the nazis back at WW2 times.

We can destroy ISIS once and for all, but if we don't destroy all islamic fondamentalisms we would achieve nothing, someone else would take their place.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Leathernecks have officially landed in Syria.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/14246/us-marines-just-landed-syria-joshua-yasmeh

Don't forget that Clinton was more likely to get the US into another war than Trump though!

Straw man yay! Because this has nothing to do with the very laid out examples of how Clinton's strategy would have forced conflict with Russia, as posters on here have made clear.

At any rate... this "escalation" has nothing to do with Trump.