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So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/23 18:14:39
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/23 19:20:38
I'm really having trouble justifying running admech/knights.
It seems to me that any role admech would be brought to fill is a role that knights can handle by themselves.
Gallants, helverins, and warglaives seem to fill in all the niches really well.
Looking to get some CPs for your knights? Why get admech battalions when you can get IG battalions? Point for point more durable due to wound count and put out commensurate firepower per point spent via company commander orders.
Spending 35p for 5 Rangers vs spending 40p for 10 Guardsmen.
So ultimately, what does admech do that can't be done better by another faction?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/23 21:16:45
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
I don't think trading 1 robot away and putting a stormspear on the gallant or filling out the skitarii squads is a bad trade. 5 robots is enough to kill what you need killed. Having a few more bodies around wouldn't be bad. They get rerolls to hit. The helverins will provide your list with a shooting profile it lacks to make up for the missing robot. Warglaive shooting just isn't reliable enough.
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
I don't think trading 1 robot away and putting a stormspear on the gallant or filling out the skitarii squads is a bad trade. 5 robots is enough to kill what you need killed. Having a few more bodies around wouldn't be bad. They get rerolls to hit. The helverins will provide your list with a shooting profile it lacks to make up for the missing robot. Warglaive shooting just isn't reliable enough.
Cool, so something like the below. Give or take stubbers, troops etc.
Hmm that looks quite fun. Think I’ll give it a whirl. Cheers for the input
LexOdin9 wrote: I'm really having trouble justifying running admech/knights.
It seems to me that any role admech would be brought to fill is a role that knights can handle by themselves.
Gallants, helverins, and warglaives seem to fill in all the niches really well.
Looking to get some CPs for your knights? Why get admech battalions when you can get IG battalions? Point for point more durable due to wound count and put out commensurate firepower per point spent via company commander orders.
Spending 35p for 5 Rangers vs spending 40p for 10 Guardsmen.
So ultimately, what does admech do that can't be done better by another faction?
Really? I have the opposite problem. I cannot think of any way to run Knights but AdMech/Guard/Knights.
Alpha strike. AdMech can apply huge turn one pressure, tying up or removing key threats to your Knights.
I find Helverins over-specialized to kill T6 enemies. And Dragoons do everything Warglaives do, but better. Still. (I would use Guardsmen, Rangers, or Electro-Priests against infantry, not a Warglaive.)
Also, I still think a melee-focused Warden is better than a Gallant. The problem with the Gallant is its limited flexibility. You have to get it into melee combat, but melee combat is ironically where it is most vulnerable.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 05:10:03
I believe I'm confused as the rest seems to be heading on.
The whole purpose taking up allies was to gain options you didn't have. Why you take ad mch and why you take knights?
These simple questions in my mind create a big issue.
A) seems like the logical pick was Cawl with Robots and melee knight. But I'm not convinced
B) if we try to take Dragoons etc we need shooting knight . Somehow I don't see how to make it work for me.
C) if I aim for only 2 detachments I can't pick Mars nor invest so many points in Cawl for buffing Robots.
Picking up a super heavy detachments I can on!y see helverins working for me so my default list would replace helverins for spam and antiair issues vs onagers. Knight helverins 3 CP and switch onagers. In my mind that is. Unless you building a focused list or consider Icarus and helverins antihorde .
I can't find still a good combination taking advantage of ad mech and knights. Changing to dakka knight seems a bad option for me since I still consider if we want dakka Cawl star provides easier and better pew pew.
So melee option knight was a part of my decision to pick knight ally. Durable melee option drawing tons of fire . So your enemy let's some other units alone or actually make a Cawl star work.
Still not have a list. If I used Robots I would use Cawl and two onagers neutrons not Icarus. So far in my mind .
For 1750 points I'd go for two detachments stygies and kinghts.
For 2000 3* detachments
I am thinking Stygies for alpha strike (undecided on whether or not I want to commit to converting drills), Guard for bodies and indirect artillery, and either BA or a Knight for beta strike.
If I take a Knight, then I have another decision: Free Blade Warden (Legendary Hero, Haunted by Failure or , Weary Machine Spirit) or Raven Crusader? Super-heavy Auxiliary detachment; not convinced the Armiger tax is worth getting the Household tradition and 3 CP.
Though the downside to Haunted by Failure is that it means I almost always want Paragon, Mark, or Sanctuary, since Endless Fury doesn't work whenever I fail the leadership test. At the same time, Taranis is quite nice if I just want to resurrect my Knight.
I do agree with Yoda79 that if we're doing the alpha strike thing, a shooting Knight makes the most sense so you can make an immediate impact turn one and then have both fighting and shooting options after that.
Oh, and one more thing. Has anyone considered Taranis Errant with Fury of Mars? That thing is sweet. 48" always-melta is incredibly high damage output.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 10:51:13
Would your original idea of a warden be the best compromise. Let’s him shoot on his way in with the para gauntlet. A lot cheaper on CP than the blood angels slam bros too probably
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 15:04:01
Yeah. But I am torn on how to run him. Back when I thought Raven could be used in either shooting or fighting phases, it was a clear winner. Now... Freeblade? The least painful burden combo is Haunted by Failure and Weary Machine Spirit, but even that can be really bad. Taranis? Tough to sell me on the stratagem. Raven? Too shootey. Krast? Too fightey.
Also, here's a funny list I was tinkering around with:
Elite - 374 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1995 points 16 CP (-4)
Basically, embark 11 Electro-Priests and an Enginseer into your transports and infiltrate (2 CP). Hide the Enginseer behind the vehicle repairing, and your Electro-Priests can come out and fight twice (3 CP) once you get close enough. Dragoons also can infiltrate (1 CP) and charge with Doctrina (1 CP). The Slamguinius can Forlorn Fury (2 CP) and Descent of Angels (1 CP) fight twice (3 CP). So... spend 17 CP right off the bat. LOL.
This is just a thought exercise though. Not sure what to make of it, but there's a crapton of mobility in this list. Not too much customization though. You can cut one unit of Infantry to take 2x12 EPs, I guess.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 15:24:20
I consider this for 1750! Taking advantage of the best possible cheap combos. Knights dakka and durability ad mech infiltration and healing. That's should be the comination. Taranis cause you can revive and use from distance all your knight detach.
I'm just brainstorming. Haha. I am not even sure where to begin to convert two Drills. I also need to paint 20 Electro-Priests; I plan to make 30 though.
By the way, can anyone with a Drill please give me dimensions?
As always the list can be customized depending on playstyle and actual models you got. I initially made the list three detachments so you could change the battalion with guard if you decided to take guard as well. You make Cawl with robots and onagers spearhead and take a battalion as you like it. You can also remove the transport and or s weapons from troops and take what you believe best.
I gave two groups plasma to get them into transport and test them as support where need and because this list highly needs to go first . So imsitched a bit then list and now you get inside the transport wnginseer and two vang. Seems that only way doing so.
Simple change remove s weapons from troops and take one more robot.
Raven for options but as with the rest of options warlord heirlooms etc even if you I'll take helverins or warglaives should be decided almost /game meaning you need to consider tour rules meta etc.
Ideasweasel wrote: So do we think that the issue of warlord using “heirlooms of the household” and “exalted court” will stay as it is until Chapter approved?
Ie. If I want to use a forgeworld knight I can’t use those strats on him as it specifies Questoris/Dominus only
Also would tournaments let that slide in the mean time if you used an Atropos or would they hardline that?
I doubt theyd be that lenient. Some combos can be pretty tough, so disallowing them on FW knights kinda makes sense.
My take on the Admech + SHD. Not sure how well the Preceptor is going to help the Armigers, but as far as I can tell rerolling 1s is somewhat good. Especialy it's rerolling shooting and fighting hit rolls (as there's not differentiation in the rule).
The alternative I consider is to ditch one sniper squad for tesco Skitarii and getting rid of the Onager for another Helverin instead. However, as there's no anti-psyker on the list I hope them to be blown by Arquebusi, and 6 shots are a way more reliable way to do so then 4. Thoughts?
This is the most bog standard knight list I could imagine. It doesn't feel very optimized at all. But it went 4-1 at a bigtime GT.
EDIT: there were 3 lists with 1x castellans in the top 8. More castellans than shadowswords.
EDIT2: upon reviewing the top lists, I think that the RAVEN castellan can do the work of my dakkabots. Also, my MARS list would be pretty afraid of that castellan. If I get first turn I can pour the entire 5 dakkabot volley into the castellan and it might or might not die. It can have a 3++. If I go second ... erm ... that thing can kill a lot of dakkabots.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/25 05:06:37
Knights have always been strong; they're a dominant strategy that capitalizes on one primary strength, just like Green Tide or Poxwalker spam. Thing is, as they do better, people will begin to bring more anti-tank, and they will plummet like a rock.
EDIT: What does everyone think about this list?
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 499
HQ - 334 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
1x Techmarine - Boltgun, Chainsword, Conversion Beamer, Relic: Veritas Vitae
Elite - 323 19x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 18 CP (-4)
Basically, there's an overwhelming number of assault threats in this army. Aggressively deploy Scouts to control the opponent's deployment, infiltrate Dragoons and Electro-Priests on turn one. Get Mephiston to the front with Wings of Sanguinius and Slamguinius with Forlorn Fury.
The Commander with the swag camps in the artillery park with Master of Ordnance, 2 Enginseers, and the Techmarine.
3x5 Rangers, 3x10 Guardsmen, and 3x Mortar led by the nobody Company Commander screen your Basilisks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 10:03:08
I'm kinda out of the loop on the knight codex. So can the solo knight Castelan that was in both Top2 lists take a WL trait or artifact? Or is he just there to get pumped with stratagems?
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
He can be given trait and artifact for 1CP each(strategem). And of course he gets strategems including house ones. All he misses by being super heavy aux det is house trait(so in raven can advance and shoot without penalty both assault and heavy weapons. Somehow not rapid fire weapons though not that any knight has those but weird wording for the trait. Could be made easier like "knight can advance and fire all weapons and doesnt' suffer -1 to hit for advancing" and not have to have to clarify heavy weapons under it in FAQ)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 10:22:05
Suzuteo wrote: Can I see what lists we're talking about? I've been out of the loop travelling between the US and Japan.
But I am surprised people are going with a lone Castellan over a lone Crusader.
Guess they feel they want knight to bust vehicles and Castellan is pretty darn good. It's also awesome if you expect to run into plenty of shadowswords seeing that thing can literally take a hit from shadowsword and blow the little one out of the sky in return. Other knights less so.
That thing blows up repulsor AND leman russ in one go with pretty good chances and that's without accounting meltas, shoulder cannons and missile. That's anti-tank firepower crusader doesn't offer. Of course less good against hordes but that's what other models are up for.
Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Suzuteo wrote: Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).
