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I think pHaley was the one everyone complained about--but after reading eHaley's card--I'm assuming this is the Haley everyone hates. We have a friendly group just starting Warmahordes--which means one week we think something is pretty damn strong (Until we play another week or so..).

So how bad is eHaley? I don't want to play a model that isn't any fun for my friends and we really can't judge yet.

I started playing warmachine with this model. There was a rather large learning curve, she does a ton of different things. People hate her feat, so for half of a turn people don't get their way. The telekinesis shenanigans, time bombing and the ever important TA on a jack are what makes her.

It's fun I think to learn to play against her when your learning, and its not like they won't want to learn how to deal with her anyway. Just don't burn your friends out on playing against her. I use her for my anti horde list, as she is the only caster I seem to ever have a shot against locks/beasts with.

You will most likely get the same reaction if not a worse playing eCaine.

I hate her both

They're both rough, but Captain Haley is more straightforward
(the brute force version) and Major Haley is a Major Pain in my
Sock Drawer.

The most unfun part of Haley2 is the feat turn as you get to break opponents activation sequence. The turn will be pretty nasty to the opponent.

Otherwise she is a good toolbox caster, who is pretty hard to play well. She has so many options per turn that deciding the correct way to proceed may take a bit of time to think through.

eHaley make's the opponent's life annoying as all hell. Having said that, she does NONE of the heavy lifting herself. She's not like, say, eVlad, or eCaine, or the butcher: she can't go "welp, my army's dead. Guess it's time to go kick the other caster's army in the junk all by my lonesome."

Without enough models to actually do the job of taking ground/killing things, she's plain out of luck. She just makes the aforementioned jobs much, much easier to do.

eHaley has an amazing spell list, but you have to pump a LOT of focus into an effective turn with her. She's a ton of fun to play and has notable strengths and weaknesses like any other caster. She plays well as a control caster, and anyone who's played for long enough can tell you that control elements are very potent. She isn't the only control caster though, and isn't in a faction with many control elements to layer on.
The feat is very strong, but on the safe edge of overpowered since it cannot win the game by itself, instead it robs the opponent of all his tempo. The biggest complaint I hear about her feat is that it essentially prevents the opponent from playing the game and takes all the fun out of their next turn.

The easiest way to get around her feat is to be moving forward all the time....or have a shooting army. Her feat is annoying but not game breaking.

I think you'll find that it's mostly matchup dependent. Haley likes to move her army forward aggressively, feat, and then get the alpha strike against the opponent. The 1-2 knockout has to be devastating (and often is) because Cygnar simply cannot do attrition battles.

Against armies that brick up, or have little shooting, or are dependent on specific activation sequences, eHaley's feat can absolutely crush their turn. You may as well consider it an ability to skip their turn and let Cygnar go twice in a row.

Against armies that do not do those things, however, especially incredibly mobile armies or those who do their heavy lifting at range (eLylitn is often an obvious example) eHaley can look unsatisfying as her army falls apart around her.

The big factor is whether your opponent has an army that can force eHaley to use her feat defensively or offensively. eMakeda and Molik Karn, for example, have a 20" Haley-is-dead radius. eLylith has a 24" Haley-is-dead radius. eGaspy can absorb the feat turn charge, watch all his stuff die, resurrect his army, and kill hers. Then it's a caster-caster fight, and Gaspy can do a lot more heavy lifting than Haley.

For beginning players, though, it's going to be tough to find a better way to suck all the fun out of their game than by going with eHaley.

sourclams wrote: The 1-2 knockout has to be devastating (and often is) because Cygnar simply cannot do attrition battles.

Since when can't Cygnar play attrition? They have one of the best infantry control pieces in the game (Cyclone), one of the most durable jacks (Centurion), access to Arcane Shield in every list, access to the piper (tough or +1 def), access to a solid supply of mercs like Boomhowler, access to a caster that can repair all the damage on his jacks and one that confers +5 arm to essentially the whole list, etc.

Anyway, eHaley is quite strong, but requires you to be a skilled player not only with your list, but your opponents. Sure, you get to pick their activation order, but if you don't know how their list works, you may end up activating stuff in the "correct" order (like having them activate an arc node, then activate their caster). The common trap with eHaley I see from multiple players is taking a very low model count army with her -- often times the stuff killed from the initial attack + feat turn ends up evening up the model count, and then eHaley ends up losing.

Endgame wrote:Since when can't Cygnar play attrition? They have one of the best infantry control pieces in the game (Cyclone), one of the most durable jacks (Centurion), access to Arcane Shield in every list, access to the piper (tough or +1 def), access to a solid supply of mercs like Boomhowler, access to a caster that can repair all the damage on his jacks and one that confers +5 arm to essentially the whole list, etc.

Frankly, no, "you're doing it wrong".

You've listed reasons that Cygnar can compete with other factions that have cheaper infantry and tougher heavies.

There's very few Cygnar lists that can afford to trade model-for-model with other lists' "crapfintry". Nothing that provides army-wide Tough bonuses like Trolls or Terminus, nothing that brings models back into play or creates new models like Cryx can with necro surgeons, Tartarus, or feats. Nothing that is as disgustingly cheap as Winterguard, Kriel Warriors, Mech Thralls. And while Cygnar can general stack ARM buffs on a single model, they simply can't present a cost-effective ARM21 jack wall like Menoth or Trolls.

Rhupert and certain Mercs can make up for that somewhat, but Rhupert is 1 unit at a time and far from unkillable and Boomhowlers are not at all cheap and lack real hitting power. You have the additional tax then of big units that don't benefit from feats without Murdoch, who escalates point costs.

Playstyle-wise, Cygnar has to control the flow of battle so that they're hitting first, and using innumerable accuracy buffs, synergies, and mini-feats to hit above their weight. And they have a lot of tools that allow them to do exactly this. Trying to play them like Trolls, or Cryx Horde, or T4 eButcher, especially in scenario games, is simply not going to yield results.

eHaley is a tough caster if you're playing a straightforward melee focused force. Any force with mobility firepower or "tricks" can handle her, though she does provide a tough fight, no lie.

If players have cut their teeth on the likes of pDenny (who I find MUCH more aggravating to play against) they should be able to adapt to the playstyle needed to face eHaley easy enough.

I play a troll list with only a few shooty or mobile elements and I beat her reasonably handily (and the guy I was playing I'd put at an equal or better skill level to me, generally). Compare that to my games against Denny when I feel like a mewling child being slapped around by the village bully .

Ok, appreciate the replies. It sounds like, even if an argument was made regarding her power level, her feat is a pretty bad kill-joy (Which it reads like it would be). Thanks again.

sourclams wrote:
Playstyle-wise, Cygnar has to control the flow of battle so that they're hitting first, and using innumerable accuracy buffs, synergies, and mini-feats to hit above their weight. And they have a lot of tools that allow them to do exactly this. Trying to play them like Trolls, or Cryx Horde, or T4 eButcher, especially in scenario games, is simply not going to yield results.

And yet, I went 4-1 at Gen Con Hardcore this year with Darius playing a Troll like brick -- absorb the enemy charge, grind their army, and win by attrition. My only loss was to Lord Tyrant Watt who went on to win hardcore, and that game went to VPs at a 4 to 3 win for him because Dice Down got called at the top of my turn. I essentially out attritioned a double centrati + Xerxis brick.

With pStryker, in tournament play, I attritioned through a Mordikaar list and a Shae list (Shae was at lock n load, not Gen Con). Do not discount Arm 20 on infantry and Arm 28 and 29 on Jacks and what that can do for you.

You're doing it wrong if you're only trying to win via assassination with Cygnar, IMO.

Endgame wrote:You're doing it wrong if you're only trying to win via assassination with Cygnar, IMO.

Kara and Caine say Hello.

Sparks wrote:

Endgame wrote:You're doing it wrong if you're only trying to win via assassination with Cygnar, IMO.

Kara and Caine say Hello.

But you wouldn't only try to win by assassination with them. You can always use eCaine's feat to decimate the opposing army, for example. Good luck beating the best players (like Neutralize, the guy who won Gen Con Masters, or Lord Tyrant Watt, the guy who won Hardcore) if your only plan on winning by assassination.

Right because when I try to win by assassination I ignore every unit but the caster.

Endgame wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Playstyle-wise, Cygnar has to control the flow of battle so that they're hitting first, and using innumerable accuracy buffs, synergies, and mini-feats to hit above their weight. And they have a lot of tools that allow them to do exactly this. Trying to play them like Trolls, or Cryx Horde, or T4 eButcher, especially in scenario games, is simply not going to yield results.

And yet, I went 4-1 at Gen Con Hardcore this year with Darius playing a Troll like brick -- absorb the enemy charge, grind their army, and win by attrition. My only loss was to Lord Tyrant Watt who went on to win hardcore, and that game went to VPs at a 4 to 3 win for him because Dice Down got called at the top of my turn. I essentially out attritioned a double centrati + Xerxis brick.

With pStryker, in tournament play, I attritioned through a Mordikaar list and a Shae list (Shae was at lock n load, not Gen Con). Do not discount Arm 20 on infantry and Arm 28 and 29 on Jacks and what that can do for you.

You're doing it wrong if you're only trying to win via assassination with Cygnar, IMO.

Pst. Watts lost this year. A Rasheth player whose name I can't recall won.

Not that this really disproves anything.

Laughing Man wrote:
Pst. Watts lost this year. A Rasheth player whose name I can't recall won.

Not that this really disproves anything.

The Finals were PG_Bulldog vs Watts -- looks like I confused who won!

A fair point, Endgame, and one that I can't discount. Darius and Centurions are terrifying to people who can't wipe upkeeps or get to you without charging or kill ARM24 before you repair.

And yes, T4 Rasheth won Hardcore. He did it with some of the 'weakest' Titans in Skorne's arsenal, and in so doing turned the Skorne meta-game on its head. A good player truly can with with anything, provided they can build a nasty, synergistic list.

Her feat is extemly annoying.

but.

pKeross.. everyone within 14" is knockdown..

harbinger.. if within 20" and you move closer...

Searyn.. cannot target us with melee attacks.. oh and i have def 19 against ranged and immune blast dmg.. with spd7 flying heavy beasts with reach..

dene.. your army cannot move.. and -3 def. ? i think

egaspy.. i just brought back 10 bane knights that just killed your heavies.


ehaley is harsh.. but there are others that are just as much of a kill-joy

Yes, but.

Many things are immune to knockdown. Many other things can stand models up. The Fell Caller, for example, turns pKreoss' entire feat into a 1-round RAT buff (being hyperbolic here but you get the idea).

Harby only matters against 1wound infantry and lighter solos. POW14s are nice, but it's a typed damage (fire) and some army lists ignore her feat entirely so matchup is important here. Harbinger feats and... Karchev just keeps coming.

No doubt Saeryn is a powerful warlock/feat, but the nature of Angels means that they're only ever going to kill 1-2 models a turn and still can't target warlocks/warcasters they don't have LOS to for a freestrike-ignoring charge. A brutal assassination, but very manageable especially for ranged-centric armies.

pDenny chops down your stats brutally, but you can still pull off certain activation chains with moderate effectiveness (like Karchev + Tow or Choir + pKreoss knockdown + Vassal + shooting Warjack).

eGaspy can be blocked off by sacrificial screens or LOS with intervening models and the entirety of your army is relatively unaffected, beyond what he can get his charging ghostly weapon masters into contact with. Another crushing feat, to be sure, but one that can be managed.

The difference with eHaley is that the opposing player really has no options to manage her feat beyond simply weathering it. No combination of models or abilities or activations should ever work, and melee-centric armies probably won't ever be able to attack.