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I think the army's results speak for themselves, to some degree. Assuming the win/loss ratio is accurate and we give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of how he used his units... How can you possibly know better than the guy who played the list?

Great list and hats of for doing so well yours list was the only list I saw in the top 8 that was Intresting you have inspired me to try a dark Angels take on the list and again hats of for doing so well with a cool list

you are so welcome buddy! I hope you do well with it! Dark Angels can add a nasty spin on the list with the darkshroud speeder giving all your vehicles a nice -1 to hit modifier. Very cool!

How concerned was your list with Doom?

Ill be honest. Eldar psychic powers are rough on us...all of them. All of them are great at erasing our units. Our best bet is to be able to deny on a 4+ with the templar scouts (or templar equivelent unit) or use a raven guard libby with a jump pack to get within deny range on turn 1. Either way its rough going. I generally think powers that need to be stopped based on leathality to our army are:

1. Word of the Phoenix
2. Quickening
3. Jinx/Doom

Every situations different but thats what I have found the most problematic powers are.

Wonderful! Got anything else?

The point is Predators really aren't that durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable to kill one, and then focus on the Repulsors. I don't buy it.

Totally not a big deal buddy. This is just one style of marine lists that I think can be successful. The awesome thing about this game is we can all have cool and unique ideas and still be successful. I think this list preforms reasonably well but it does have some weaknesses. The space marine leader for most of the year was Patrick McElvey (sorry I butchered that), Patrick runs a space marine gulliman infantry heavy deathball list that also was very successful. Patrick uses his guilliman aggressively and pushes the army forward as one 3+ armor wall. Patricks list also has some weaknesses. Both of us are using the different tools to achieve the same results!

Enron wrote:

Totally not a big deal buddy. This is just one style of marine lists that I think can be successful. The awesome thing about this game is we can all have cool and unique ideas and still be successful. I think this list preforms reasonably well but it does have some weaknesses. The space marine leader for most of the year was Patrick McElvey (sorry I butchered that), Patrick runs a space marine gulliman infantry heavy deathball list that also was very successful. Patrick uses his guilliman aggressively and pushes the army forward as one 3+ armor wall. Patricks list also has some weaknesses. Both of us are using the different tools to achieve the same results!

First of all congratulations to your performance mate! Really refreshing to see an off beat list performing so well.

Do you think this kind of infantry deat ball could work? Which units are best for putting into it?
I was toying with the idea of running a Blood Angels which had the same idea: Move a ball of Intercessor and Aggressors up the board, supported by the 5+ FnP banner, whilst your HQs deal with your opponents heavy stuff.
Could something like this work against the firepower of a Knight list? How does it fair against Eldar and Ynnari? (I actually have no Eldar / Ynnari players in my club... )
Any other units you would include? Besides say 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors?

@Enron Thanks for your feedback!

I have a hard time picturing how my Marines would tackle even my Eldar, but can't square the hate Doom gets with how much I see it it actually do. My last game vs Marines, Quicken failed (bad dice despite CP reroll), and Doom was Statagem'd, and it was obvious to me that Quicken failing was the bigger blow.

@Lash,
Hopefully better SM player's than me answer. But remember both Reapers and Spears use D2 weapons with good AP. But a 5+FnP does nasty things to D2 weapons on W2 models.

Yeah that was the idea. You just need to pass one of two 5+ rolls to nullify the D2. Also the Aggressors T5 makes a huge difference against both.

Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.

Ice_can wrote:
Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.

The difference though is Slamguinus can earn several times his points back on the charge when you've dumped several CP into it. I'm not actually sure on the math of Roboute charging a Knight but now I'm curious if it has been done or if someone else wants to. If not I can.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.

The difference though is Slamguinus can earn several times his points back on the charge when you've dumped several CP into it. I'm not actually sure on the math of Roboute charging a Knight but now I'm curious if it has been done or if someone else wants to. If not I can.

I didn't mean that Gman beats a slamguinius, more just he can do work in buff bot, CP farmer and CC. Not bad for 1 model, but his 400points is a hard sell against slamguinius.

Losing Gmans rerolling wound is a real kicker for sure. But gaining the FnP banner solves many problems such a list would have otherwise imo.
Plus the chapter tactic allows your HQ's to be your anti armor source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what would one leave behind in such a list for holding back objectives?

Something cheap. That's about it.

I think the new Primaris sniper guys (Eliminators?) might make a good back-field objective camper.

There's no doubting G-man's effectiveness, but there are other similar options that cost far less. A chapter master like Pedro Kantor, plus a lietenant, costs only just more than half G-man's cost. And they fill out the HQ requirements of a battalion rather than requiring you to take a lord of war.

Guilliman is also a beatstick though. And it's impossible to argue against the fact that armies with him in are doing well at tournaments, while those without him really are not.

Yeah i'm really wondering what the new shadowspear units will be.

is it too optimistic to think that those snipers will be troops with 3 models for a min squad?

Hello dear Space Marine lovers,

Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.

Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.

The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Hello dear Space Marine lovers,

Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.

Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.

The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.

I think it´s not a great idea to combine Gman with DW, since he really needs many units around him to justify the 400 points. If you want some marine allies go for BA and take a Batallion of 3 Scouts and some CQC HQ´s.

 lash92 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Hello dear Space Marine lovers,

Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.

Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.

The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.

I think it´s not a great idea to combine Gman with DW, since he really needs many units around him to justify the 400 points. If you want some marine allies go for BA and take a Batallion of 3 Scouts and some CQC HQ´s.

Thing is I:

I already allied BA to my DW and it did good

Now I want to try the „different flavors“ of SM with my DW (vanilla Marines, Space Wolves, Dark angels, Sister when they come out etc.)

Sure, makes sense. It's just that bobby aint a great pick. SW assault element might be interesting, or a vanilla backline? I've been toying with IFs for mortal wounds and DW for killy vet squads. If it works at all I'll report back.

Yeah Bobby G is too expensive for a (heavily) mixed list. You want to maximize the units near him.

I just found out that I could play a GMan, Predator, Repulsor list on 1750 points. A shame that most of my local tourneys run Ars Bellica missions that restrict your choices to 2 per datasheet (except troops).

• Roboute Guilliman

• Tigurius (MoH, VoT, Nullzone)
• Techmarine (Axe, Bolter, Servoarm)

• 5x Scouts (Bolter)
• 5x Scouts (Bolter)
• 5x Scouts (Bolter)

• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)
• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)
• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)

• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)
• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)

I feel you mate, AB restrictions are really hard. If you are in western Germany there are ITC tournaments coming now.
Also you can take up to 5 times the same transport with the AB rule set afaik.

Ok thanks for the honest feedback!

Seems like my Emperor conversion will have to wait till unknown times

 Crimson_ wrote:
Yeah Bobby G is too expensive for a (heavily) mixed list. You want to maximize the units near him.

I just found out that I could play a GMan, Predator, Repulsor list on 1750 points. A shame that most of my local tourneys run Ars Bellica missions that restrict your choices to 2 per datasheet (except troops).

• Roboute Guilliman

• Tigurius (MoH, VoT, Nullzone)
• Techmarine (Axe, Bolter, Servoarm)

• 5x Scouts (Bolter)
• 5x Scouts (Bolter)
• 5x Scouts (Bolter)

• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)
• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)
• Predator (P-Autocannon, HBs)

• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)
• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)

It might be worth giving that Techmarine a Beamer. It isn't terribly expensive with the price drop the core Techmarine received and allows more contribution throughout the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?

Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher) 
• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)

I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!

Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?

I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.

Bobby G prefers ROF over quality of shots. Rerolling failed 2+s work out to a 16% improvement. Rerolling failed 6+s work out to an 83% improvement. So, assuming that two weapons are roughly equal in value without rerolls, the one that hits/wounds on worse will increase in value more with rerolls.

Nullzone feels like a trap. I've never seen a game where it would have been a reasonable strategy. It's really dicey to pull it off, and very costly if you try to pull it off and fail.

Both valid options, but those options are more expensive. I would need to drop Heavy Bolters or change weapons on one Repulsor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enron wrote:

Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher) 
• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)

I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!

Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?

I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.

Have not thought about the heavy onslaught gatling cannon on the Repulsor. I might try this - thanks!

Enron wrote:

Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher) 
• Repulsor (Twin-Las, Lastalon, 3 SBs, Stubber, Krak-Launcher)

I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!

Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?

I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.

Techmarines only heal 2 wounds a turn. This works out to 10 wounds over a game, which sounds impressive.

However, this is assuming the opponent doesn't just kill the unit each turn.

Often enough it just takes a wound or two to take the tank up a bracket. I found the Techmarine useful and he fills up the battalion.

Have not thought about the heavy onslaught gatling cannon on the Repulsor. I might try this - thanks

Or another option is give all the predators SB which now benifit from bolter drill as well as Kill Shot

Techmarines only heal 2 wounds a turn. This works out to 10 wounds over a game, which sounds impressive. 

However, this is assuming the opponent doesn't just kill the unit each turn.

Actually I think they heal D3 wounds a turn but to your point the average should be 2. As you said even if they heal 10-12 wounds over the course of the game its the equivalent of a free predators worth of points over the course of the game! Your right though if your opponent can kill a unit per turn where you cant heal them you could always just sit him on an objective and your opponent cant target him (unless he has some sniper type weapons of course). Slap on a convsion beamer and you can continue to shoot away!

Sniper weapons aren't really dangerous outside MAYBE Rangers using Arqs. You should be fine. I also recommended the Conversion Beamer as well due to the low buy-in for Techs now.

I also gave the average for a reason.

@ Enron :

What's your opinion on a primaris infantry deathball? (Preferably as Blood angels for that 5+ FnP banner)
Could something like this work or is it to weak and fragile against things like Ynnari or Knights?
Was thinking about running maybe 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors and letting my HQs deal with the heavier stuff from my opponent.

@ Enron :

What's your opinion on a primaris infantry deathball? (Preferably as Blood angels for that 5+ FnP banner)
Could something like this work or is it to weak and fragile against things like Ynnari or Knights?
Was thinking about running maybe 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors and letting my HQs deal with the heavier stuff from my opponent.

I think that if anyone can do it blood angels have the best chance. My recommendation is that you get a deredeo dred or a custodes preator to give all your infantry a 5+ invul. as well as a 5++ FnP from your banner dude. The key with a death ball type list is you have to have extremely fast durable units that can close in on your opponent in 1 turn. For example the reason why veteran bikers are the preferred unit in that type of list is because they can potentially get a 20" movement with a 3+ invul. before a turn 2 assault. Doing it with primaris may be substantially harder due to the fact they have to pay more to get a weaker invul save and are much slower to close with the opponent. Although its somewhat mitigated with a FnP and the fact you can hopefully hide in some cover on the way to your opponent.

Either way though test it out and let us know how it does!

Did the venerable dreadnought get a price drop in CA or did I just imagine it?