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Suzuteo wrote:
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.

Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.

Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?

He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?

That sound about right

I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .

You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.

I want to get my ad mech playing and use an ally that can full fill roles in my army I don't have. I'm already thinking with transports ad mech got a good chance solo but I wanted the durability in pushing forward and the gun fire magnet a knight provides.

Ally not knight list thanks.

As for suzuteo list sure I like the concept but you v turned from one point to another. From a heavy ad mech vehicle list to an almost troops list.

The issue I got with our Dragoons priest plan is clearly surviving. Priest die from any gun. Any and with so many units you most likely gonna go second. I'd prefer to switch to helverins in my list and remove the Icarus to get a solid 12 man priest inside transport. Seems more valid. It so far I can't seem to take advantage of all lists together. I'm understand you believe on basilisks but I can't depend on them. They don't deliver that damage we need with bs 4+ and no other option. What makes ad mech gun line top is Cawl reroll all hit/miss else I'd go for knight list. As far as gun line arty is the issue we talking.

So a average 1000 points Cawl robots onagers will deliver every game with options and not so many CP. Using also healing double shooting +2 shooting wrath of Mars covering any need vs any list . Why would I play ad mech without this when it's atm one of the best possible choises cheap gunlines that even if you take Castelan will not deal with air ground hordes etc same effective or when you need mortals spam. So as I see this if you decide ad mech Cawl star is a must for me after many many consideration.

Now there are custodes guard knights all able to bring to the table lots of things. But vs a serious air army with -1 to hit your guard knights etc won't make the result you want. And atm I'm considering a list for tournaments.

If you go Castelan then take full knights and a stock graia battalion that's it . You win some loose some most likely win fun games and be hated from your friends but in a serious competition knight lists have been dealt with before!

You all know this yes you LL win games with not enough anti tank bla bla but.

Now surely each players playstyle needs to be accounted for. But I believe a single knight or a smaller Lance has potential to give nough protection to a Cawl star and with the use on transports to get a nice assault.

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .

You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.

I'm not sure how talking about the idea of supporting 1400 points of Ad Mech with 600 points of 1 Knight isn't relevant to a discussion on AdMech tactics...? You talk about wanting ways to cover some of the AdMech weaknesses via allies, so, this is a viable option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.

Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.

Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?

He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?

That sound about right

It depends.

You can only give the 2 Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix WL traits and relics via the stratagem - the other ones would have to be your Warlord in order to gain a trait and relic. This is due to the stratagems only affecting the Questoris and Dominus Knight Classes.

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.

Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.

Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?

He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?

That sound about right

If you have Imperial guard commander warlord then forgeworld knight will not get warlord trait just by having character by being warlord. You can make FW knight your warlord and have the trait but then IG commander cannot be warlord(and thus no 5+ CP regeneration) and need to pay 1 CP for kurov aquila.

Now you COULD give FW knight warlord trait by strategem but this only works like for 2 FW knights that have questor class so Styrix and MAgaera only. All cerastus knights etc cannot be given trait or relic by strategem so only way to have those on them is make them your warlord. Which removes that 5+ CP regeneration warlord trait as possibility.

I regard knights as admech. QUESTOR MECHANICUS is in the broader genre of admech. And competitive is dominated by RAVEN, KRAST, and TARANIS, which are all the mechanicus houses.

tneva82 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.

Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.

Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).

And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?

 Yoda79 wrote:

As for suzuteo list sure I like the concept but you v turned from one point to another. From a heavy ad mech vehicle list to an almost troops list.

I know. I'm just brainstorming.

Wulfey wrote:
I regard knights as admech. QUESTOR MECHANICUS is in the broader genre of admech. And competitive is dominated by RAVEN, KRAST, and TARANIS, which are all the mechanicus houses.

Agreed. I consider Knights to be AdMech in the same way I consider Ogryn to be Guard.

Suzuteo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.

Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.

Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).

And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?

You have harder time sure though 12 stomps isn't nothing to sniff at. And that possibility doesn't worry all that much shadowsword which is also not happy seeing hordes.

Of course not like there's not stuff like custodian bikes, eldar jetbikes of either type etc that you can shoot up that cawl's wrath doesn't mind shooting either.

Kdash wrote:

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .

You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.

I'm not sure how talking about the idea of supporting 1400 points of Ad Mech with 600 points of 1 Knight isn't relevant to a discussion on AdMech tactics...? You talk about wanting ways to cover some of the AdMech weaknesses via allies, so, this is a viable option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.

Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.

Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?

He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?

That sound about right

It depends.

You can only give the 2 Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix WL traits and relics via the stratagem - the other ones would have to be your Warlord in order to gain a trait and relic. This is due to the stratagems only affecting the Questoris and Dominus Knight Classes.

Ahh bugger!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.

Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.

Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?

He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?

That sound about right

If you have Imperial guard commander warlord then forgeworld knight will not get warlord trait just by having character by being warlord. You can make FW knight your warlord and have the trait but then IG commander cannot be warlord(and thus no 5+ CP regeneration) and need to pay 1 CP for kurov aquila.

Now you COULD give FW knight warlord trait by strategem but this only works like for 2 FW knights that have questor class so Styrix and MAgaera only. All cerastus knights etc cannot be given trait or relic by strategem so only way to have those on them is make them your warlord. Which removes that 5+ CP regeneration warlord trait as possibility.

Looks like I’m back to the drawing board with my new list!

tneva82 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.

Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.

Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).

And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?

You have harder time sure though 12 stomps isn't nothing to sniff at. And that possibility doesn't worry all that much shadowsword which is also not happy seeing hordes.

Of course not like there's not stuff like custodian bikes, eldar jetbikes of either type etc that you can shoot up that cawl's wrath doesn't mind shooting either.

600 points to stomp sounds pretty bad to me. Lol.

And sure, Castellans can shoot bikes. But that's not what it's best for. I honestly would just tie it up with Dragoons (you cannot Fall Back through vehicles) and ignore it for the rest of the game.

Sure, but you spent 200 less points on the Shadowsword. You are spending 50% more points for the same impact in half to the most of your games. Sure, if you're going Knights vs. Knights, your Castellan will be worthwhile. But then again, the other guy will pretty much run the same strategy. This is not good de-risking.

Suzuteo wrote:
600 points to stomp sounds pretty bad to me. Lol.

And sure, Castellans can shoot bikes. But that's not what it's best for. I honestly would just tie it up with Dragoons (you cannot Fall Back through vehicles) and ignore it for the rest of the game.

Sure, but you spent 200 less points on the Shadowsword. You are spending 50% more points for the same impact in half to the most of your games. Sure, if you're going Knights vs. Knights, your Castellan will be worthwhile. But then again, the other guy will pretty much run the same strategy. This is not good de-risking.

Yes but I think you are overestimating number of 4-6 pts model only hordes in tournaments. Do you really face armies with just 4-6 pts infantry?

And funny you mention dragoons as those vehicle squadrons are also what castellan very much enjoys shooting. Unless you have tons of 1 model ones they are basically never going to get even close to castellan if castellan decides to look at.

And agains castellan isn't only good against knight army. Many IG armies for example have these thing called "leman russ". Castellan is blowing 2 of those per turn(something shadowsword can't do. And one of those leman russes could be repulsor for all the difference it makes). That's 2 turns and points made back. Marines I see repulsor time to time, chaos there's dinobots, primarch etc castellan enjoys. Ad mech and there are kastellan robots to shoot at. Eldar? Wave serpents, wraithlords, war walker squadrons that I see. Alaitoc fliers also. Albeit those are bit more annoying if they spend strategem for -3 to hit. -2 isn't that bad as castellan will blow up one anyway(without help from strategem of reroll all 1's). Leviathan dreadnoughts, contemptor dreadnoughts. Hell with necrons destroyers are very good targets as a) they are very powerful b) you pretty much HAVE to blow them away right away or not bother to shoot so against those thing there is no such thing as "overkill". Worst you can do is meagre fire that kills several models of the 6 destroyers and that's it.

And don't you think knight army might be just wee bit unbalanced if it would be just anti-horde firepower? How it would then deal with vehicles?

Seriously all you face are IG/ork/tyranid infantry swarm? Nothing else? One of the most horde skewed metas you face then.

If hordes were a problem for IK, how did 3 of the top 8 lists at Boise GT have majority knight detachments, and 1 of the top 8 lists was guard/blangels/RAVEN Castellan? Shooty knights stomp out 8 minimum bodies each player turn, and easy kill 16 over a battle round if they remain engaged. Actual melee knights, or Tzeentch help you a KRAST gallant against a swarm of chaos gribblies, will splatter out 25 models per assault phase. The one off KRAST gallant with the +1 attack WLT can seriously land 30 hits a player turn using the KRAST exploding 6s strategem on cultist or plague duders.

EDIT: IK have counters. It is elite suicidal melee infantry with str9 (wulfen style stuff), or elite shooting infantry out of LOS in ruins with good access to shooting buffs (devastators, obliterators, reapers, etc.). Hordes do not counter knights. Hordes don't hurt knights. The only way the 200 ork body list wins versus knights is if the ork player slow plays and denies the knight player 6 turns of stamping out 50 bodies a turn.

Krast gallant has nothing to do with Castelan concept and definitely not with range armies all together?

That's the whole point ! You jump in and talk about questoris houses and how knights are ad mech ok like I'm from another planet. Do you get the point or just trying to troll.
Questoris household knight darn all vehicles and weapons are ad mech I'm with you. But 600 gathered points in one model is bad even if called 6 robots or one Castelan .

And as always this is my opinion and from my experience .every single time I play any model Magnus mortarion or lancer o crusader everysingle time in New edition it does not favor me at all. Maybe it's better now if you make an elite army giving you a good chance with few models and some nice stratgems to survive tomgo first that's it. Making a list with many models just adding one knight we have extensively talked about many times. Even with more options gems defence bla bla all die in 8th.

Cutting this blabla short if you take a Castelan and you focus fire my Dragoons then most likely I win. I wish all enemies focus my Dragoons I really wish but they won't.

That's why I'm trying to fit isnide a list Dragoons knight Robots so you really don't know what to shoot and if you leave anything it can really hurt you . Else I don't framing need a knight I get more from onagers than a knight cheaper more durable healable bla bla already covered this 400 post back.

You can't convince me even if you post 300 times that a list without elite going first like knights or mass models to gain wounds is valid is not.

If you invest 600 points in knights then you need two more melee knights tomdraw the fire power and make the lost valid . So it's not ad mech as we know it it's knights so please spare me about what is ad mech.

Sorry I don't man to sound harsh but it's common logic when you participate in a forums to atmelast try to read some of the main concept in it before claiming knowledge or at least try to add some value.

Wanna have fun go ad a single Castelan to your list but got nothing to do with a serious list sorry. A list with knights sure thing I even tried to fit a porphyrion early on the year but has nothing to do with adding one knight.

And every focused list does not have enough CP to play there aspects. I got a list with min 11 CP malevolance or guard for cp rec. And many options . My knight I can spend in him my robots I can spend on them my transport and assault options etc etc warglaives? What ever remains alive will be used. So

I m still trying to find a way to get Mars and stygies and knights and it's not possible

If solo castellans weren't serious lists, why were there 2 castellan lists in the top 8 of the Boise GT? There were 4 lists with knights, 3 of those with majority knights. These were all 4-1 lists in a tier 1 tournament. One of the castellan lists had just the castellan. One had the castellan in a bigger 4-5 knight detachment with a STYGIES battalion on the side. My competitive group is rushing out to buy castellans based on the data coming back from the top tables. I was deeply suspicious of the dominus class initially and preferred gallants, but the data is changing my mind.

EDIT: on the mars/stygies/knights thing ... MARS and KNIGHTS don't get along. It doesn't make sense. MARS is about pouring points into heavy shooting units to make Cawl's tax pay off. Knights are all payload units that you expect to deal damage and take damage. There is simply no way to get those to work. STYGIES/Knights? Hell yes. Hard to shoot rangers hiding and enginseers repairing is a great thing.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes but I think you are overestimating number of 4-6 pts model only hordes in tournaments. Do you really face armies with just 4-6 pts infantry?

And funny you mention dragoons as those vehicle squadrons are also what castellan very much enjoys shooting. Unless you have tons of 1 model ones they are basically never going to get even close to castellan if castellan decides to look at.

And agains castellan isn't only good against knight army. Many IG armies for example have these thing called "leman russ". Castellan is blowing 2 of those per turn(something shadowsword can't do. And one of those leman russes could be repulsor for all the difference it makes). That's 2 turns and points made back. Marines I see repulsor time to time, chaos there's dinobots, primarch etc castellan enjoys. Ad mech and there are kastellan robots to shoot at. Eldar? Wave serpents, wraithlords, war walker squadrons that I see. Alaitoc fliers also. Albeit those are bit more annoying if they spend strategem for -3 to hit. -2 isn't that bad as castellan will blow up one anyway(without help from strategem of reroll all 1's). Leviathan dreadnoughts, contemptor dreadnoughts. Hell with necrons destroyers are very good targets as a) they are very powerful b) you pretty much HAVE to blow them away right away or not bother to shoot so against those thing there is no such thing as "overkill". Worst you can do is meagre fire that kills several models of the 6 destroyers and that's it.

And don't you think knight army might be just wee bit unbalanced if it would be just anti-horde firepower? How it would then deal with vehicles?

Seriously all you face are IG/ork/tyranid infantry swarm? Nothing else? One of the most horde skewed metas you face then.

I haven't had a chance to play a game in like two months because of my business travel. But every time I drop by the store or talk to my friends, they tell me that Ynnari/Eldar/Drukhari, Death Guard, and Blood Angels are hot, with Tyranids and Custodes Soup being strong runners-up. Most people are preparing for hordes, which is why I can see Knights being temporarily resurgent.

Pretty sure a Castellan can't consistently wipe an entire squadron of Dragoons. And even if they do, that's not a huge loss. Dragoons are probably the most annoying thing to shoot at in most AdMech lists. Anyhow, virtually everything in that last I posted can seriously hurt a Knight; they are actually very vulnerable in fighting.

When was the last time you saw a Leman Russ, Dreadnought, or Destroyer at the top table? Wave Serpents, sure, but as you said, annoying to shoot down. Plus, most lists bring only 2 or 3 of them.

Vehicle-heavy lists are uncommon in competition right now. Infantry-heavy lists are more flexible, much more efficient, and higher skill cap. You can bring a Knight to take out vehicles, and I am sure it is good at that. But let's be honest, you're not going to need to take out 600 points worth of them, and against infantry-heavy lists, a Castellan is massively inefficient.

Wulfey wrote:
If hordes were a problem for IK, how did 3 of the top 8 lists at Boise GT have majority knight detachments, and 1 of the top 8 lists was guard/blangels/RAVEN Castellan? Shooty knights stomp out 8 minimum bodies each player turn, and easy kill 16 over a battle round if they remain engaged. Actual melee knights, or Tzeentch help you a KRAST gallant against a swarm of chaos gribblies, will splatter out 25 models per assault phase. The one off KRAST gallant with the +1 attack WLT can seriously land 30 hits a player turn using the KRAST exploding 6s strategem on cultist or plague duders.

EDIT: IK have counters. It is elite suicidal melee infantry with str9 (wulfen style stuff), or elite shooting infantry out of LOS in ruins with good access to shooting buffs (devastators, obliterators, reapers, etc.). Hordes do not counter knights. Hordes don't hurt knights. The only way the 200 ork body list wins versus knights is if the ork player slow plays and denies the knight player 6 turns of stamping out 50 bodies a turn.

a) 12 attacks, 8 hits. Does not equal 8 kills. 6 and spare. And 16 in 2 stomps? 24 attacks, 16 hits. You seriously think they kill with every hit? Lol. 16 hits and you are looking at 13-14 deaths rather than 16.
b) Obviously orks won't give 2 combat phases stomping. 6 turn game, 6 stomps assuming knight player gets charge turn 1 which he likely won't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:
Pretty sure a Castellan can't consistently wipe an entire squadron of Dragoons. And even if they do, that's not a huge loss. Dragoons are probably the most annoying thing to shoot at in most AdMech lists. Anyhow, virtually everything in that last I posted can seriously hurt a Knight; they are actually very vulnerable in fighting.

How many are in squadron? Volcano lance will get d6 shots rerolling 1's. Hits on 3+ rerolling 1's. Wound on 2+ rerolling 1's. Do they have inv save? If not then every wound causes in average 7 wounds(3d3 damage rerolling 1's) so dead dragoon per wound. Then plasma destructor. 2d6 shots rerolling 1's, 3+ to hit rerolling 1's, wounds on 3+, you get no save if no inv and causes 3 wounds per wound. And then comes in 4d3 shots(rerolling 1's) hitting on you know what, wounding 3+ rerolling 1's. You get 5+ save(IIRC they had 4+ save) and cause d3 damage rerolling 1's. Then is of course the 4 meltaguns.

That's a lot of dead dragoons. You need several to surround castellan. Oh and another knight nearby if knight player is affraid of getting tagged in CC by vehicles. 2 knights close to each other and you need to surround BOTH.

and against infantry-heavy lists, a Castellan is massively inefficient.

Why then shadowsword is popular? That's not much better if at all...Doesn't kill tougher than ork boyz(when was last time you saw orks in top tables anyway?) and is less tougher. It gives world of hurt on custodians where that 2d6 D3 plasma hurts a lot rerolling everything etc.

You speak of tournament tables. Well sure enough raven castellan started to appear on those right away...Maybe there's a reason for that you know?

tneva82 wrote:
How many are in squadron? Volcano lance will get d6 shots rerolling 1's. Hits on 3+ rerolling 1's. Wound on 2+ rerolling 1's. Do they have inv save? If not then every wound causes in average 7 wounds(3d3 damage rerolling 1's) so dead dragoon per wound. Then plasma destructor. 2d6 shots rerolling 1's, 3+ to hit rerolling 1's, wounds on 3+, you get no save if no inv and causes 3 wounds per wound. And then comes in 4d3 shots(rerolling 1's) hitting on you know what, wounding 3+ rerolling 1's. You get 5+ save(IIRC they had 4+ save) and cause d3 damage rerolling 1's. Then is of course the 4 meltaguns.

That's a lot of dead dragoons. You need several to surround castellan. Oh and another knight nearby if knight player is affraid of getting tagged in CC by vehicles. 2 knights close to each other and you need to surround BOTH.

You have a point. I did not factor in the Raven stratagem. But let's walk through the math. Up to 6 Dragoons in a squadron. Castellans hit on a 4+ from incense; 5+ if Stygies ontop of that, but let's assume not. Dragoons have a 6++ invulnerable save and 3+ save with Shroudpsalm.

Volcano: 3.916*21/36*28/36*5/6*5 = 7.4
Cawl's Wrath: 3.916*2*21/36*28/36*5/6*3 = 8.88
2x Siegebreaker: 2*2.33*2*21/36* 28/36*3/6*2.33 = 4.92
2x Melta (6"): 2*2*21/36*28/36*5/6*4.47222 = 6.76

7.4+8.88+4.92+6.76 = 27.96, 4 out of 6 Dragoons dead, assuming the Knight is within 6" of the Dragoons; I would definitely position myself 16.1" away. Those meltaguns hurt.

You only need three Dragoons to surround a Knight, actually. In fact, you only need three of any model to surround a lone model. And nobody is stupid enough to put two Knights close together against melee vehicle threats. But if they do, I would be glad to trap both of them for one turn.

tneva82 wrote:
Why then shadowsword is popular? That's not much better if at all...Doesn't kill tougher than ork boyz(when was last time you saw orks in top tables anyway?) and is less tougher. It gives world of hurt on custodians where that 2d6 D3 plasma hurts a lot rerolling everything etc.

You speak of tournament tables. Well sure enough raven castellan started to appear on those right away...Maybe there's a reason for that you know?

Shadowswords aren't popular. I was saying it's more points appropriate to the threats you're dealing with.

Yeah. Because nobody was expecting to have to deal with 1600 points worth of Knights. People will adjust, and these sorts of strategies never hold up.

Exactly none said bad words about Castelan and stop the offensive we are not blind nor retards.

I agree with Suzuteo won't take results from on tour just when codex came out.

And the meta will surelly swift. As for shooting Dragoons I'd be glad to have your 600 point thing waste all shots on a -2 to hit model ! As I said go ahead if all did what you say I would not need to have more durability and Cawl star would be toping.

As for synergy I never said that a knight list is not good . But it's a aknight list . With plus and minus advantages and dis. I clearly said it's most likely a win decisions to play an elite list full of knights. As meta Swift's so will heavy focused lists. That's why we looking for a soup list covering most cases not one game or one tour or one enemy faction.

Combining Mars with stygies and knights yes please. Shooting screener and durability office sounds good to me. Point wise not gonna happen most likely. Spending your CP is the real trick here but I decided my opponent will hit something and let me spend my CP to the surviving unit. That's why I wanna play full threat list.

I m gonna try Mars atm cause I believe Robots Cawl and a knight warden with some warglaives are better than crusader and Dragoons. Cawl star seems to perform better for me than a crusader and I don't have 600 poonts for a Castelan nor I consider him the best game dakka. Sorry good but no for me . I d surelly take one on my knight list but not atm.

Why ? Thoughts behind my posts!

Cawl reroll everything. Making my shooting more stable to hit vs all kind of lists / defences and adjust according to needs. Including a pair of Icarus onagers or neutron even still testing. Wrath of Mars I need to say no more . With knight and transport I consider my list low in model count giving me a chance to go first and that will be nasty.
Two canticles healing dakka Warden for havok helverins either with neutrons or armiger's with Icarus complete each other . Not sure f I need a guard battalion but it can happen setting me up with 12 cp and some recycling.

I miss Dragoons but I consider (not tested) two armiger's perform both shooting and some melee covering for the spot adding some CP on super heavy .

If I manage to add priests inside the list with out sacrifice or test 2*5*2 plasma vanguard in transport vs 11-12 priest (both variations ) in trwnsport I believe it would be better than a knight list. That's about it.

Guard battalion with a phycher if need seems the most logical in a tour cause guard got the best cheap battalions + CP recycle + an options vs psych if it's really necessary.

So super heavy Raven warden with 2 small ones Cawl star with robots and priests + some guard battalion . If done I believe it would be the most versatile all around list to be played vs a majority of enemies like no other!

Suzuteo wrote:

You only need three Dragoons to surround a Knight, actually. In fact, you only need three of any model to surround a lone model. And nobody is stupid enough to put two Knights close together against melee vehicle threats. But if they do, I would be glad to trap both of them for one turn.

Thing is with 2 knights side by side(btw no need to be even b2b) you need more than 3 models or the knights can simply walk out of the combat. And since according to your math 4/6 dies to castellan salvo...Where's that 3rd going to come? How many dragoons ad mechs generally field? Even if castellan rolls poorly and you have 3 you won't be able to surround both with 3 models. Especially as you still can't break coherension.

Not to mention you will have to face often more than 1 and remember. You move 10". Castellan moves 10". You won't be reaching them that fast as castellan can be moving to put in some distance between them again.

Oh and btw...If 3 dragoons get into close combat average is 1 dies to castellan's h2h attacks freeing him again. And if there's somebody, say errant, in close combat that will be making wreck as well. Haven't done yet math is chainsword/fist/stomp better but either way even with stomp 1 dragoon dies in average with castellans which is WORSE than errant in h2h so obviously errant is having even better time so if you surround both you basically NEED full squadron of 6 get there. I very much doubt squadron of 6 will get in combat in tact so you need multiple squadrons to archieve that.

Above with assumption overwatch does nothing. But with average 18.5 shots you are looking at 3 hits varying from near certain death of dragoon(volcano lance) to just extra damage to make sure even with bad rolls castellan will kill at least one dragoon.

Now sure if you have multiple full squadrons coming on knights way that's a worry to knights. In that case knights will of course likely be further. Then if castellan is alone(support for other imperium armies) they can either use screens or if it's full knight army they have more firepower and dragoons aren't cheap models so worthwhile targets for knights shooting in any case.

Shadowswords aren't popular. I was saying it's more points appropriate to the threats you're dealing with.

Yeah. Because nobody was expecting to have to deal with 1600 points worth of Knights. People will adjust, and these sorts of strategies never hold up.

Funny I see plenty of tournament lists with those.

And we'll see. So far we have tournament data supporting my view more than your's.

tneva82 wrote:
Thing is with 2 knights side by side(btw no need to be even b2b) you need more than 3 models or the knights can simply walk out of the combat. And since according to your math 4/6 dies to castellan salvo...Where's that 3rd going to come? How many dragoons ad mechs generally field? Even if castellan rolls poorly and you have 3 you won't be able to surround both with 3 models. Especially as you still can't break coherension.

Not to mention you will have to face often more than 1 and remember. You move 10". Castellan moves 10". You won't be reaching them that fast as castellan can be moving to put in some distance between them again.

Oh and btw...If 3 dragoons get into close combat average is 1 dies to castellan's h2h attacks freeing him again. And if there's somebody, say errant, in close combat that will be making wreck as well. Haven't done yet math is chainsword/fist/stomp better but either way even with stomp 1 dragoon dies in average with castellans which is WORSE than errant in h2h so obviously errant is having even better time so if you surround both you basically NEED full squadron of 6 get there. I very much doubt squadron of 6 will get in combat in tact so you need multiple squadrons to archieve that.

No. If you put two Dragoons "pinching" either side of the short axis of a Knight, then a Dragoon anywhere past the 50% mark of its long axis (opposite of where the two other Dragoons are), it is impossible for the Knight to escape because he cannot pivot in place or translate side to side. It's laughably easy to trap a Knight, actually. You better watch out for that sort of move.

According to my math, 4/6 die if the Knight shoots 100% of its weapons at it within 6". More than just the Knight can be shooting it, so if we're going second, I doubt I will have the option at all. But if we're going first, that Knight is screwed.

tneva82 wrote:
Funny I see plenty of tournament lists with those. And we'll see. So far we have tournament data supporting my view more than your's.

Pretty sure you don't. First, you don't even have one complete week's worth of data. Second, this already didn't happen in the Index meta.

Knights and these sorts of low skill cap, dominant strategies have always done well. But they are a type of army that pretty much auto-loses certain matchups. And the thing about tournament competitive lists in any strategy game is that overall win rate is not very important. You simply have to have a reasonable chance to win against every other competitive deck in the meta.

Anyhow, I fully expect to see lone Knight lists, but I really doubt we're going to see three Knight lists very long, and probably not from top table players.

Suzuteo wrote:

No. If you put two Dragoons "pinching" either side of the short axis of a Knight, then a Dragoon anywhere past the 50% mark of its long axis, it is impossible for the Knight to escape because he cannot pivot in place or translate side to side.

According to my math, 4/6 die if the Knight shoots 100% of its weapons at it within 6". More than just the Knight can be shooting it, so if we're going second, I doubt I will have the option at all. But if we're going first, that Knight is screwed.

Yes but that's why second knight is slightly to side. They have room there and then pivot. And can you maintain coherency with 2 knights with more than 4" of knight base between?

Oh and i will always get shooting. Doubt you can do first turn charge 30" away.

Oh and you mentioned being 16.1" away. I take it doesn't have some 3d6 charge rule so 11" plus 2d6 for charge threat so you put 16.1" to be out of melta range and give good odds of charge right? Knight can move away to deny charge or if you don't have other non infantry to surround i can charge you myself. Knights are no slouch in h2h. Let's be generous and say only 3 dies to castellan shooting with no extra damage. Then 2 stomps takes out 2 dragoons in average with room fog bad dices. 1 left when my turn comes. This on one of worst h2h knights.

No i think mechanicum has lot better ways to deal with knights than desperate dragoon charge.

Anyhow, I fully expect to see lone Knight lists, but I really doubt we're going to see three Knight lists very long, and probably not from top table players.

Funny. I have been generally refering to lone castellans all the time rather than full knight list. Lone castellan will obviously have screens to stop dragoon trick even if you run 3x6 to get past castellan's shooting(min 1 round, likely 2)

tneva82 wrote:
Yes but that's why second knight is slightly to side. They have room there and then pivot. And can you maintain coherency with 2 knights with more than 4" of knight base between?

Oh and i will always get shooting. Doubt you can do first turn charge 30" away.

Oh and you mentioned being 16.1" away. I take it doesn't have some 3d6 charge rule so 11" plus 2d6 for charge threat so you put 16.1" to be out of melta range and give good odds of charge right? Knight can move away to deny charge or if you don't have other non infantry to surround i can charge you myself. Knights are no slouch in h2h. Let's be generous and say only 3 dies to castellan shooting with no extra damage. Then 2 stomps takes out 2 dragoons in average with room fog bad dices. 1 left when my turn comes. This on one of worst h2h knights.

No i think mechanicum has lot better ways to deal with knights than desperate dragoon charge.

I don't think it works. If you have three Knights, maybe you can stop a surrounded by forcing cohesion in certain circumstances. But I cannot think of any arrangement where two Knights can prevent both of them from being surrounded.

If you're going second, 16.1" inches may seem prudent. And I doubt the Castellan will move away. If anything, I am more worried about it charging at me. But that is inherent to going second.

Anyhow, you're really nitpicking, and not offering much in the way of a good argument for Castellans. If anything, I am less impressed now that I look at the math and how much of a commitment it is to manage risk on this guy. I mean, I didn't say it was the only or best strategy. Just one easy way to neutralize 600 points of shooting. If it's the best move, I will do it. If there is something else better for my Dragoons to do, I will do that instead.

tneva82 wrote:
Funny. I have been generally refering to lone castellans all the time rather than full knight list. Lone castellan will obviously have screens to stop dragoon trick even if you run 3x6 to get past castellan's shooting(min 1 round, likely 2)

I've personally been thinking it would be the lone Raven Crusader that comes out on top due to the good mix of defense and offense. I am surprised that people are going for lone Raven Castellans.

Then again, my friend just sent me the lists for Boise, and Brandon didn't bring a Castellan. He brought a Shadowsword backed by Basilisks and Hellhounds; again, we're seeing people prepping for horde lists, especially DG/Nurgle. 400-500 points seems right for the commitment to anti-tank. The Flying Monkey GT list looks a lot like mine, only with BA instead of AdMech and 5x Hellhounds to balance out the Thunder Hammers.

Suzuteo wrote:

I don't think it works. If you have three Knights, maybe you can stop a surrounded by forcing cohesion in certain circumstances. But I cannot think of any arrangement where two Knights can prevent both of them from being surrounded.

From 2 dragoons? If there's 2 knights side by side you are looking at about 10" gap between 2 sides. How many dragoons you think you need to surround that. Remember if they are at sides I can move forward...No need to even pivot.

If you're going second, 16.1" inches may seem prudent. And I doubt the Castellan will move away. If anything, I am more worried about it charging at me. But that is inherent to going second.

You will start game ~30" away from castellan. Then you move, I shoot. If you have gone close enough you could charge and surround castellan I will either move sideways or backwards adding distance or charge. If I move sideway/backway I will get second round before you can charge. If you dont' come close enough to give me melta I have always options of adding distance. Remember I don't have to move 100% away from you to do that...

And if you have either credible h2h threat or more non-infantry to trap knight in h2h of course I will deny charge and move away. The melta guns are tertiary weapons. Their shooting isn't worth getting trapped in combat I can't move away from.

Anyhow, you're really nitpicking, and not offering much in the way of a good argument for Castellans. If anything, I am less impressed now that I look at the math and how much of a commitment it is to manage risk on this guy. I mean, I didn't say it was the only or best strategy. Just one easy way to neutralize 600 points of shooting. If it's the best move, I will do it. If there is something else better for my Dragoons to do, I will do that instead.

I'm pointing out how PATHETICALLY bad idea dragoon charge is. a) you are providing exactly the kind of targets castellan WANTS to shoot. 6 wound vehicle SQUADRONS. That's like lol volcano cannon is perfect at killing those without overkill. b) they will not survive one round of shooting without losing most of the squad c) they will take up damage/lose models from overwatch d) when they get into close combat knight will then finish off yet another and so even with bad luck this leaves unit with 1 dragoon which isn't stopping knight from getting anywhere. So basically with 1 round of shooting and letting you charge I have killed 5/6 of your 408 pts dragoon unit accomplishing nothing. You just made castellans life lot nicer. If that's according to you worthwhile idea to even begin to deal with knights poor mechanicum as that's never going to work so guess mechanicum will then auto lose against knights. For h2h you need credible damage output. 3 attacks per models, even with the extra rule, wounding on 4+, giving 4+ save and causing only 2 damage isn't going to make knight to worry even if 2-3 gets into combat. More than that if you want to combat and you basically need to invest over half the points in army on those to max out on them. If there wasn't rule of 3 you could at least bring like 6 of them in squads of 1 which makes life of castellan harder but as it is 3 of those isn't worry even in lone squadrons.

And again lots of tournament top lists obviously disagree with you. Like it or not anti-tank is still needed and 100% anti horde isn't required meta. 600/2000 in anti tank isn't that bad deal. Especially when compared to still popular shadowsword that's even worse against hordes and lot softer target. Shadowsword is easily one shotted. Castellan less so.

tneva82 wrote:
From 2 dragoons? If there's 2 knights side by side you are looking at about 10" gap between 2 sides. How many dragoons you think you need to surround that. Remember if they are at sides I can move forward...No need to even pivot.

Don't be dense. From 3 Dragoons. You need 3 objects to be able to trap anything in this game. It's a geometric principle.

tneva82 wrote:
You will start game ~30" away from castellan. Then you move, I shoot. If you have gone close enough you could charge and surround castellan I will either move sideways or backwards adding distance or charge. If I move sideway/backway I will get second round before you can charge. If you dont' come close enough to give me melta I have always options of adding distance. Remember I don't have to move 100% away from you to do that...

Except most players aren't stupid and will infiltrate their Dragoons then immediately wrap your Knight. If they cannot do this, they won't spend turns trying to chase you across the board. They will attack another target instead.

tneva82 wrote:
I'm pointing out how PATHETICALLY bad idea dragoon charge is. a) you are providing exactly the kind of targets castellan WANTS to shoot. 6 wound vehicle SQUADRONS. That's like lol volcano cannon is perfect at killing those without overkill. b) they will not survive one round of shooting without losing most of the squad c) they will take up damage/lose models from overwatch d) when they get into close combat knight will then finish off yet another and so even with bad luck this leaves unit with 1 dragoon which isn't stopping knight from getting anywhere. So basically with 1 round of shooting and letting you charge I have killed 5/6 of your 408 pts dragoon unit accomplishing nothing. You just made castellans life lot nicer. If that's according to you worthwhile idea to even begin to deal with knights poor mechanicum as that's never going to work so guess mechanicum will then auto lose against knights. For h2h you need credible damage output. 3 attacks per models, even with the extra rule, wounding on 4+, giving 4+ save and causing only 2 damage isn't going to make knight to worry even if 2-3 gets into combat. More than that if you want to combat and you basically need to invest over half the points in army on those to max out on them. If there wasn't rule of 3 you could at least bring like 6 of them in squads of 1 which makes life of castellan harder but as it is 3 of those isn't worry even in lone squadrons.

a) Then they can shoot them? This honestly sounds like a stereotypical "it can be defeated, therefore it is bad" argument, which has logic that is easily countered by a demonstration of reciprocity.

Consider that a Castellan is more vulnerable to a Castellan than a squadron of Dragoons is:

Volcano: 3.916*28/36*(4/6+2/6*4/6)*3/6*3*2.33 = 9.46
Cawl's Wrath: 3.916*2*28/36*28/36*3/6*3 = 7.10
2x Siegebreaker: 2*2.33*2*28/36* 14/36*3/6*2.33 = 3.28
2x Melta (6"): 2*2*28/36*21/36*5/6*4.47222 = 6.76

Is countering a Castellan with a Castellan a pathetically bad idea to you? (It seems riskier than trying with Dragoons.)

b) Unless they get the charge off first or wrap around another vehicle for protection. Honestly, your entire strategy sounds reactive and doesn't appreciate the fact that you are the one under threat.

d) I honestly do not know what to say to this. Seriously, you should be able to do the math yourself:

3*(2/6+3*3/6)*4/6*3/6*2 = 3.67 wounds per Dragoon

6 Dragoons deals expected 22.02 wounds to the Castellan. Which means it is proportionally more lethal to the Castellan as it is to them, but costs only two-thirds the points.

But that's not even the important part. As I have outlined above, the threat here is twofold:
1) Dragoons can safely neutralize 600 points of shooting with minimal losses on turn one.
2) Dragoons force you to pay a high opportunity cost for shooting them.

tneva82 wrote:
And again lots of tournament top lists obviously disagree with you. Like it or not anti-tank is still needed and 100% anti horde isn't required meta. 600/2000 in anti tank isn't that bad deal. Especially when compared to still popular shadowsword that's even worse against hordes and lot softer target. Shadowsword is easily one shotted. Castellan less so.

Two. That's how many lists with Castellans we have from the top tables. And the Shadowsword is in the #1 list at one of those tourneys.

100% of the lists at these two tourneys have a heavy, dedicated anti-horde component.

One thing you also need to consider, is the Castellan’s overwatch vs those Dragoons. Chances are, 1 of those 2 are going to be killed.

Also, in regards to the “pinching” idea, you’d have to be charging the Knight from the side – this isn’t likely going to be happening first turn – and even if 2 get into combat from the side, even with 1 on each side, I’m not seeing how they can prevent the Knight from just sliding out due to the base whilst still maintaining the 2” coherency. That… Or I’d just dedicate some additional firepower towards them on the same turn to either kill off another model or the unit for ITC points. 6 Dragoons, is, after all worth 5 ITC points if killed in 1 turn and you take Gang Busters.

Also, in regards to shooting a unit of 6 Dragoons. Sure, you aren’t making all 604 points back instantly, but, you are completely neutering a 408 point unit in return – likely finishing it off in combat and/or overwatch. (That’s if they can also get past your screen – if you’re running soup).

I’d also expect the Castellan to survive the return fire of 3 Basilisks and to have the BA Captain zoned out of charging with a screen. The priests could be an issue as the game continues, but, you could argue that they too aren’t going to be getting to the Knight until turn 2 – so they are going to lose a good chunk of their number as well.

And this is just when looking at 604 points of a 2k army.

As for a Shadowsword being better – I don’t think so. Sure, the Shadowsword can 1 shot a vehicle for cheaper, but, if you also want the volume of horde control heavy bolter shots, you’re points saving is only 64 points. That 64 points gets you 1 less BS, no Invuln, and, imo, inferior firepower. Sure, the Castellan wants to be shooting big stuff, but, it still has the rate of fire to remove handfuls of other models more reliably than a Shadowsword does. The Shadowsword also has less advantageous LoS and due to its size, can be harder to move around as well.

Now – if we are talking about the Admech/Guard/BA list vs pure Knights, then, it is a completely different matter. The Dragoons suddenly don’t have to worry about a screen, nor does the BA Captain. The Basilisks are then safe all game and can just continuously focus fire, and, the infantry can happily just sit on objectives all game due to the number of units in the army. This of course could be countered by deploying the Knights all together in a corner, limiting charge options and ensuring no Knight can be surrounding – but again, this then instantly gives up table pressure for the first couple of turns.

Can the Dragoons seriously wreck a Castellans day? Yes, of course they can. Will they do this on a reliable basis? No, I don’t think they will.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing to note that the Shadowsword really has over the Castellan, is that it can go into reserve, whereas the Castellan can’t. This can be big, and, it looks like it was a big reason why Brandon Grant took it in his Boise list.

Arguably, this could then have gone either way for him, depending on who he was up against if he didn’t get 1st turn, but, I doubt we’ll learn more about what happened.

Kdash wrote:
One thing you also need to consider, is the Castellan’s overwatch vs those Dragoons. Chances are, 1 of those 2 are going to be killed.

Also, in regards to the “pinching” idea, you’d have to be charging the Knight from the side – this isn’t likely going to be happening first turn – and even if 2 get into combat from the side, even with 1 on each side, I’m not seeing how they can prevent the Knight from just sliding out due to the base whilst still maintaining the 2” coherency. That… Or I’d just dedicate some additional firepower towards them on the same turn to either kill off another model or the unit for ITC points. 6 Dragoons, is, after all worth 5 ITC points if killed in 1 turn and you take Gang Busters.

Also, in regards to shooting a unit of 6 Dragoons. Sure, you aren’t making all 604 points back instantly, but, you are completely neutering a 408 point unit in return – likely finishing it off in combat and/or overwatch. (That’s if they can also get past your screen – if you’re running soup).

I’d also expect the Castellan to survive the return fire of 3 Basilisks and to have the BA Captain zoned out of charging with a screen. The priests could be an issue as the game continues, but, you could argue that they too aren’t going to be getting to the Knight until turn 2 – so they are going to lose a good chunk of their number as well.

And this is just when looking at 604 points of a 2k army.

As for a Shadowsword being better – I don’t think so. Sure, the Shadowsword can 1 shot a vehicle for cheaper, but, if you also want the volume of horde control heavy bolter shots, you’re points saving is only 64 points. That 64 points gets you 1 less BS, no Invuln, and, imo, inferior firepower. Sure, the Castellan wants to be shooting big stuff, but, it still has the rate of fire to remove handfuls of other models more reliably than a Shadowsword does. The Shadowsword also has less advantageous LoS and due to its size, can be harder to move around as well.

Now – if we are talking about the Admech/Guard/BA list vs pure Knights, then, it is a completely different matter. The Dragoons suddenly don’t have to worry about a screen, nor does the BA Captain. The Basilisks are then safe all game and can just continuously focus fire, and, the infantry can happily just sit on objectives all game due to the number of units in the army. This of course could be countered by deploying the Knights all together in a corner, limiting charge options and ensuring no Knight can be surrounding – but again, this then instantly gives up table pressure for the first couple of turns.

Can the Dragoons seriously wreck a Castellans day? Yes, of course they can. Will they do this on a reliable basis? No, I don’t think they will.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing to note that the Shadowsword really has over the Castellan, is that it can go into reserve, whereas the Castellan can’t. This can be big, and, it looks like it was a big reason why Brandon Grant took it in his Boise list.

Arguably, this could then have gone either way for him, depending on who he was up against if he didn’t get 1st turn, but, I doubt we’ll learn more about what happened.

Well, it's moot if you're playing with BA because Slamguinius can tie up Overwatch. But again, math is our friend:

Volcano: 3.5*1/6*5/6*5/6*5 = 2.02
Cawl's Wrath: 3.5*2*1/6*4/6*5/6*3 = 1.94
2x Siegebreaker: 2*2*2*1/6*4/6*3/6*2 = 0.88
2x Melta (6"): 2*2*1/6*4/6*5/6*4.47222 = 1.66

On average, you almost get one. Also, I realized I made a typo in my last post. Should be a tiny bit higher on the meltas.

The pinching thing is not an opinion. It's a geometric fact. It's the same for ANY oval or round base. Imagine a clock. If it's oval, put 3 nails at 12-3, 3-6 , 6-12. If it's round, it's trickier, but 12, 4, and 8. The clock cannot be moved in any direction without touching a nail.

And what do you mean it's unlikely I will get to his side? First, I would be picking the direction. Second, does anyone here point their Knight full frontal toward the enemy? I always move my oval bases sideways because it's easier to maneuver and hide behind buidlings.

Taking out 408 points for 602 is terrible. Consider that a 129 point Slamguinius can do the same to a Knight in one turn of fighting:

2*7*28/36*4/6*5/6*3 = 18.14
2*7*28/36*4/6*5/6*4 = 24.19 with Artisan of War
2*8*28/36*4/6*5/6*4 = 27.65 with Artisan of War and Unleash Rage

It is extremely tough to screen something so large against a Slamguinius. (I mean, seriously, any AdMech should know; most of our plans for the past few months were intended to de-risk Cawlstar, including an assault screen.) On many deployments, he can walk right into your deployment with Forlorn Fury. You would have to castle up for sure, but that just increases your risk.

There are plenty of ways to kill a Knight. Dragoons are strong because they can wrap the Knight and prevent it from falling back. This is huge.

You’re assuming that Slamguinius either makes the charge into the Knight or is even in a position to make the charge. What happens if Slamguinius cannot land within 16” of the Knight for example? Or are you going to start him on the table and likely take an ignore invuln missile to the face?

The point about Dragoons. Without 3, it seems it is pretty much impossible/incredibly difficult to prevent a Knight from retreating. Not having 1st turn will see 4 of the Dragoons die to shooting and likely a 5th dying to overwatch. Sure, when you look at it as 408 points vs 604 points, it is “bad”, but, this isn’t a game of 1 turn and 2 units – something which people always want to assume.

It doesn’t really matter if a unit CAN do something, if it isn’t in a position to do so for 1, 2 or 3 turns. It then becomes a matter of what the other things do in that period.

As for picking Knight base direction, it completely depends. A Gallant could be placed side on, to give movement flexibility etc, whereas, it might not make any difference for a Crusader or Castellan, especially if they are essentially holding the backline or making an initial move up the table. Terrain will of course play a part to this, but, if you’re sideways on in order to benefit from something like a building, it then becomes harder to surround the Knight, as you can play that to your advantage.

As for Admech and screening, sure, they can’t do it as well as Guard can – but, let’s just take 3 min units of Rangers/Vanguard. This 3 units can be placed in front of any Knight at the 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock points with a 6” gap between the Knight and the units. Slamguinius is now 16” away from the Knight after using the re-deploy stratagem. This becomes easier the more “chaff” units you take.

Suzuteo wrote:
Taking out 408 points for 602 is terrible. Consider that a 129 point Slamguinius can do the same to a Knight in one turn of fighting:

Is it? That's AWESOME! 402 pts in turn. For 602 pts. That's 2/3 of your point value gained in turn. So 2 turns would give you more than you costed. Not many can nor should it. If units kill it's value in turn 2k army would annihilate 2k enemy in a turn...Short game. The higher the amount you can kill a turn the more alpha game is and the worse it is in terms of interesting game. 2/3 of your point value killed is awesome and indeed too much if that was common. Luckily not many are crazy enough to try charging toward castellan with 6 dragoons. Not many units can get that much value. Especially when you are resilient platform. Taking out shadowsword in one turn is easy job. Castellan with 4++ is much harder. Not many things that can do that. Even shadowsword is not able to do that. One of the only things that can do that would be slamquinus but that's what screens are for.

I am honestly getting very tired having to defend models whose use cases have been clearly demonstrated for months against models whose rules have not existed for more than three weeks.

Kdash wrote:
You’re assuming that Slamguinius either makes the charge into the Knight or is even in a position to make the charge. What happens if Slamguinius cannot land within 16” of the Knight for example? Or are you going to start him on the table and likely take an ignore invuln missile to the face?

You're ignoring months of tourney results when you ask this. The two options are Forlorn Fury, which gives your Captain a threat radius of 24"+4D6, and Upon Wings of Fire, which lets you Deep Strike before getting a threat radius of 12"+3D6. This is exacerbated by the weird vertical charge rules.

Kdash wrote:
The point about Dragoons. Without 3, it seems it is pretty much impossible/incredibly difficult to prevent a Knight from retreating. Not having 1st turn will see 4 of the Dragoons die to shooting and likely a 5th dying to overwatch. Sure, when you look at it as 408 points vs 604 points, it is “bad”, but, this isn’t a game of 1 turn and 2 units – something which people always want to assume.

Omnissiah save me. Don't do stupid things for the sake of doing them. If your Dragoons can't make it to the Knight, obviously don't try that. Pin some other unit instead. When you do this, the damn Knight can't shoot you at all.

Kdash wrote:
It doesn’t really matter if a unit CAN do something, if it isn’t in a position to do so for 1, 2 or 3 turns. It then becomes a matter of what the other things do in that period.

What? This entire forum is dedicated to talking about if a unit can do something. Because once you know a unit can do something, you act in ways to prevent that unit from doing that something or, if you are using the unit, to carry out ways to do that something.

Kdash wrote:
As for picking Knight base direction, it completely depends. A Gallant could be placed side on, to give movement flexibility etc, whereas, it might not make any difference for a Crusader or Castellan, especially if they are essentially holding the backline or making an initial move up the table. Terrain will of course play a part to this, but, if you’re sideways on in order to benefit from something like a building, it then becomes harder to surround the Knight, as you can play that to your advantage.

Uh, no. Can't say this has ever come up before. Default has always been to point sideways for me, if only because once I do start moving, I like having my best movement option available to me.

Kdash wrote:
As for Admech and screening, sure, they can’t do it as well as Guard can – but, let’s just take 3 min units of Rangers/Vanguard. This 3 units can be placed in front of any Knight at the 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock points with a 6” gap between the Knight and the units. Slamguinius is now 16” away from the Knight after using the re-deploy stratagem. This becomes easier the more “chaff” units you take.

I just picked up 15 Rangers off my desk. Guess what? They can't castle a Knight at all. Also, a 6" gap both increases the area you need to screen and is about as useful for protecting your Knight from Slamguinius as giving your Knight a giant thong.

Because Slamguinius has a 99.31% chance to make that charge. THAT'S A LESS THAN ONE PERCENT CHANCE HE DOESN'T RAPE YOUR KNIGHT.

I don't think you understand the real, physical challenges of the solutions you're proposing. And we're not even talking about a particularly challenging enemy to protect against.

tneva82 wrote:
Is it? That's AWESOME! 402 pts in turn. For 602 pts. That's 2/3 of your point value gained in turn. So 2 turns would give you more than you costed. Not many can nor should it. If units kill it's value in turn 2k army would annihilate 2k enemy in a turn...Short game. The higher the amount you can kill a turn the more alpha game is and the worse it is in terms of interesting game. 2/3 of your point value killed is awesome and indeed too much if that was common. Luckily not many are crazy enough to try charging toward castellan with 6 dragoons. Not many units can get that much value. Especially when you are resilient platform. Taking out shadowsword in one turn is easy job. Castellan with 4++ is much harder. Not many things that can do that. Even shadowsword is not able to do that. One of the only things that can do that would be slamquinus but that's what screens are for.

No, it's not. Especially since this doesn't always happen. And furthermore, that you have other units to compare against. Do we not understand how this comparing thing works at all? Has the issue of point efficiency gone out the window in discussions of competitive play? Have these mobile horde armies backed by CP-efficient elites been winning tourneys by fluke?

Don't get me wrong, I like Knights. I think a backline Crusader or Castellan is great. But I also think the threat environment is diverse, and these guys are at chronic risk of being overinvestments. Being forced to shoot at Dragoons on turn one, possibly from very far away and suffering -2 to hit (so you're not actually killing 408 points in one turn), is not my ideal use for them.

I don't play admech, but had a quick question.

Do Onager Dunecrawlers and Kastellan Robots benefit from Forgeworld buffs like the Sygies VII -1 to hit one? Most armies seem to have some units, largely vehicles which don't benefit, and I wanted to confirm.

Thanks!

 iGuy91 wrote:
I don't play admech, but had a quick question.

Do Onager Dunecrawlers and Kastellan Robots benefit from Forgeworld buffs like the Sygies VII -1 to hit one? Most armies seem to have some units, largely vehicles which don't benefit, and I wanted to confirm.

Thanks!

Yes. Assuming every AdMech unit in a detachment is from the same Forge World, they all (aside from Secutarii) benefit from that Forge World dogma.