Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In short, what is everyone's opinion on the pros and cons of small Wrack squads versus small Wyches squads?

The way I see it, it boils down to a few factors:

1. Wracks start with a pain token and Feel No Pain. They can actually survive a small amount of shooting before they charge up on pain. With a Haemy, they will also start the game with Furious Charge, giving them a significant advantage against MEQ (I5 and rerolling failed CC wounds). Wyches don't have the FNP to start, and a Haemy won't give them Furious Charge. Odds are, they don't survive to get that second pain token anyway.

2. The Liquifier is a pretty fantastic weapon, better than anything Wyches can bring to the table. On the Wyches side, they don't get a special ranged weapon, but all of them have a pistol and the Wracks just have CC weapons. Wyches can get haywire grenades, too.

3. Wyches strike at I6, so will get to go first against almost everything. They also have the 4+ Dodge on top of 4+ FNP (once they get that mighty pain token, or steal it from a Haemy). But a comparable unit of Wracks will strike at I5 on the charge and still go first against 90% of the stuff they see.

4. Wracks have poisoned weapons, so wound on a 4+. And against weak enemies (and stronger ones on the charge), they jump from 50% to 75% chance to land their wounds. Wyches with S3 need a 5+ against an MEQ and a 5-man squad doesn't have the numbers to drown the enemy in attacks. On the plus side, Wyches survive getting hit back a little better than Wracks once they get FNP.

5. Wyches get Combat Drugs. That makes the Duke a decent HQ choice if you have appreciable numbers of them. I'd say the drugs probably still aren't as good as starting with a pain token though.

It's my gut feeling that neither Wracks or Wyches will be able to take on a full-strength unit in CC and win. Wyches can take the grenades for some AV love, and Wracks get the liquifier for anti-infantry slaughter. I think the Wracks will also inflict more damage in CC on account of their poisoned weapons (even with less attacks).

So are Wyches or Wracks more useful to fill up your Venoms? Or is spamming Kabalite Warriors really the only sensible thing to do, and save the CC units for Raiders where they can get some decent numbers?

It depends mostly on what the rest of your list looks like and whether you need more anti tank or anti infantry. 5 Wyches aren't really going to beat much in combat, even with a favourable combat drug roll they still need large units to get enough wounds on MEQ. The main use for taking small units of them is with Haywire Grenades as a specialised alpha strike anti tank unit, maybe 1-2 of these units. Sure they won't kill much but if you can hit 2-3 vehicles you should stop them firing for a turn, which is all you need for the rest of your army to set up and hit in full force. Its much easier to be aggressive with a purpose built unit like this (you Death and Glory every Tank Shock etc) than it is with a fully loaded unit, because you do tend to lose the unit in the process.

In general though I would take 5 Wracks (assuming we are talking about Venoms here, otherwise the size limits aren't such as issue) over 5 Wyches. The Liquifier gives them some shooting punch (and works well from inside the vehicle, which is important) and in combat they will do just as well as Wyches against basic units (they get squashed by proper combat units, but 5 Wyches won't last much longer). Starting with a Pain Token gives them some staying power (particularly against shooting), while taking a Haemonculi to give 5 Wyches a Token isn't exactly efficient (and difficult with a transport capacity of 5) and their chances of killing a unit isn't that great either.

That said Warriors with Blaster and optional Blast Pistol tend to be better options than both. The Venom is a very good anti infantry unit, so it makes sense to put an anti tank unit with them. Wyches can hurt vehicles, but not so much after the first turn, so not a good plan to rely on that (hence why you maybe take 1 unit, but no more). Wracks are only an anti infantry unit, but they are clearly the best option if you think you have anti tank covered (which you very rarely do). Warriors are still decent against infantry as well in any case, the main advantage of the Wracks is that you can take squads of 3, which gives you an incredibly cheap scoring vehicle.

Wyches also get access to the Agoniser, which is a very potent weapon. You forgot to add that into your analysis.

Two things you're missing.

1. Wracks do NOT come with grenades. So on the charge, they are NOT initiative 5 most of the time.

2. Wracks don't have fleet of foot.

Adding to scuddman's tips...

Wracks have no saves versus power weapons in close combat (which you'll encounter since the squad is melee)

Wyches have a 4+ invul so they can stand up to a lot of tough squads and keep them engaged longer.

The fact that the Wyches have no real armor to speak of to protect them from ranged really should not matter since they can assault from the venom and since they are small enough they won't wipe out the squad in one turn and get shot at the next.

They serve totally different purposes really.

Wyches you can send at the mean squads, TH/SS, TWC, etc... They will tie them up long enough for you to reposition and blast the crap outta them when they kill the wyches. That is if the wyches dont kill them first . Or you send them into low armor/toughness squads and watch them go to town. (my 10 wyches kill a mob of orks in one round).

Wracks on the other hand I have been having trouble finding a really good purpose for. Using them for scoring is an option, but since your DE, you shouldn't need a designated scoring unit. My setup would be 5 in a raider/venom with a liquifier, a nice scoring unit that can toast marines if they get to close. But I really dont see them as a great combat unit, however, I haven't used them to a large extent. (Ive had 5 charge a broadside and then run off the board from losing combat).

If you were to take 5 of each I would base it off of what you need.

5 Wyches with haywires is a nice little pain for tanks, taking that few though and throwing them into combat is silly IMO.

5 Wracks in a venom or raider with a liquifier, a good scoring unit that packs a punch.

scuddman wrote:
1. Wracks do NOT come with grenades. So on the charge, they are NOT initiative 5 most of the time.

Might want to check your codex on this one, Wyches have Plasma Grenades by default (which is why the Grenade option for the Hekatrix is a waste).

Thats why he said Wracks

I'm basically going to field 2 units of 5-man assault troops in Venoms and have to decide if Wracks or Wyches are better, so Revackey has some useful advice.

I'm mostly concerned that a minimum squad of either doesn't pack enough punch, but I guess the 4++ on the Wyches does make a nice tarpit. I like the liquifier, but 5 haywire grenades for the same price is definitely tempting.

Is it worth paying 30 points to pick up an Agonizer when the squad probably won't be very killy? Or just suck it up and condemn them to death if they end up in assault?

Alkasyn wrote:Wyches also get access to the Agoniser, which is a very potent weapon. You forgot to add that into your analysis.

I didn't add it because Wracks can get it also for the same cost.

What point level are you playing at with them?

The lower the point value the more likely they will survive due to there not being an excess of "mean" units.

I was interested in general tactics discussion, but I play at 1500-2000 usually. I play against a lot of marines (big surprise there) but not many xenos armies, but I still want an all-comers list that isn't horribly skewed by my mini-metagame.

I'll try Wyches next time around.