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Please excuse the sarcastic inflammatory title.

I hear this quite a lot from people who don't play. But is it true, are Prime and Primal filled with models without purpose now the uber releases are out?

What do you think are the sub-par models in MkII Prime and Primal?

I think the key phrase there is "people who don't play" and therefore probably don't know what they're talking about.

Then again, I still only have enough stuff to play fairly small games so what do I know?

Can think of a few things that still get played. Some things do fall out of favor, but even a lot of those it wasn't until MkII that happened. As a bit of a list of things you still see about:

Cygnar
- pHaley
- pStryker
- Chargers
- Lancers
- Defenders
- Ironclads
- Cyclones
- Gunmages
- Stormblades
- Journeyman Warcaster

Protectroate
- pKreoss
- pSeverius
- Redeemer
- Revenger
- Vanquisher
- Templar
- Temple Flameguard
- Knights Errant
- Choir

Khador
- pVladamir
- pButcher
- Juggernaught (most the Khador ones are meh, I'll admit)
- Doomreavers
- Winterguard Infantry
- Widowmakers
- Man-Hunter

Cryx
- pDenegrah
- pAsphyxious
- Defilers
- Deathrippers
- Nightwretches
- Mechanathralls
- Bane Thralls
- Satyxis Raiders
- Necrotechs
- Scarlock Thralls
- Bile Thralls

Mercenaries
- pEiryss
- Reinholdt
- Boomhowler and Co.

Trollbloods
- pMadrak
- Grissel
- Pyre Troll
- Axer
- Impaler
- Mauler
- Bomber
- Kriel Warriors
- Kriel Stone
- Fell Caller

Circle
- pKrueger
- Baldur
- Gorax
- Woldwarden
- Feral Warpwolf
- Warpwolf Stalker
- Shifting Stones
- Wolves of Orboros
- Druids of Orboros
- Tharn Bloodtrackers
- Lord of the Feast

Skorne
- pMorghoul
- pMakeda
- Basilisk Drake
- Basilisk Krea
- Titan Gladiator
- Paingivers
(Skorne is, I think, the weirdest itnerally balanced faction though. T hings swing from great to garbage a lot depending on caster and support.)

Legion of Everblight
- pLylyth
- pThagrosh
- Vayl
- Shredder
- Scythean
- Carnivean
- Seraph
- Nyss Swordsmen
- Nyss Striders
- Orgrun Warmongers
- Spawning Vessel
- The Forsaken

That's a good amount of things you'll see about. Some things really just werent' good to start with and others were good up until changes in MkII and meta shift. For instnace, part of the strength of Trenchers changed with relative costs, and it is felt by some the issiue with Iron Fang Pikemen isn't them themselves, but that htey live in the same faction as Winterguard.

But yeah, that things in Prime or Primal become obsolete a lot is not really that true, I find. At least not as a whole (Khador and Skrone seem to a bit). And I find it's more the opposite, folks ntoe that stuff from Prime and Primal are indee still good, which is a good thing long-term, it hink. I onlyt hink in casters thsi happens and it seems mroe how some got updated in the FT that this persisted mroe then anything, based on the trends of how the casters we've gottene xclusively to MkII have been.

And stuff.

I honestly do not know play wise, but from what i have seen on the BoLS warmahordes batreps, dervish warjacks are still pretty useful.

Most Primal stuff is fine. People are still using P Casters regularly, Dire troll Maulers, Feral Warpwolves and any number of other heavies are still popular.

There are some sub-par units alright (Scattergunners!) but they were sub par when the book came out and have remained so.

The only time I've seen what I consider blatant pushing of new models was some of the Trollblood tier lists that seemed to push those trollblood scouts and skinners.

I'm just going with stuff I use.

Cryx
Deneghra, Skarre, and Asphyxious are all very good casters, and win many matchups

Skarlock is in nearly every list I make.
Bane Thralls, Mechanithralls, and Bile Thralls are all very useful core troops.
satyxis have a place as well.
All the bonejacks are useful, while I usually use only the Slayer helljack.
Gorman di Wulfe is in a lot of my lists as well.

Trollbloods
Not sure on the Warlocks because I use Borka and Calandra. I only own Madrak but haven't used him.
Axer, Impaler, and Pyre trolls are all very good.
I like the Mauler, while a friend uses a Blitzer or Bomber at all times.
Krielstone Bearers and Champions are must have, as is the Fell Caller.
Scattergunners are ok, but very powerful with the new UA.

The Prime units were designed to be the basic blocks of the game.
The newer stuff is just that, new. it has shiny on it.
Some of them get designed to fit an aspect of the game they want to cover.
Others, like character jacks, are better versions of something else, but that better comes at a cost.
The players choose whether that cost is worthwhile.

Protectorate:

Everything is better with Kreoss and/or Severius.
Choir!
Knights Exemplar are still great counter-assaulters.
Temple Flameguard are a good cheap basis for a tarpit.

Hell, with the character upgrade kits of late, even stuff you don't think is up to snuff atleast can be upgraded. I have seen arguements of doing that with Khador battleboxes to turn the Destroyer into Black Ivan, or Cryx ones to turn the Slayer into Erebus, as examples.

And stuff.

Cryx are certainly happy to roll with Prime units. pSkarre/Gaspy/Denny are very strong contenders though admittedly in different ways than their epic versions. Mechanithralls, Bane Thralls/Knights, Bile Thralls, Raiders, Skarlock, Pistol Wraith, Bone Chicken Arc Nodes, the Helljacks... all perfectly happy to hit the table and kill stuff.

Not entirely sure I'd field Ivan over a vanilla destroyer, unless you're fielding Harkevich as well. The claw isn't really that much more useful, and the free boost on the cannon only works with Captain Caveman.

Bulldoze, effective DEF 12 against ranged attacks, and RAT 5, I think, are worth the extra point myself, but YMMV. I'm speaking as an outside observer on that, mind.

And stuff.

The idea that all the stuff from the older books will be obsolete, when a new book hits the shelf, is brought up mostly by players that played ( and quit) some years ago in mk1 ( when this was actually quite true).
With mkII PP tried a new ( balanced) start and that works pretty well( evidence is the ever rising demand) and most of the prime/ primal things are competitive. Things like ATGM, Bane Thralls, Shifting Stones, Titan Gladiator and many more are constantly seen in Tournament lists. So the claim, that the prime/ primal stuff is useless, is wrong and completely misinformed


TL/DR: It was true in MKI, but its bs since MKII came around

It wasn't 100% true in MkI either. There were obvious units that did this (Stormguard -> Storblades, Bane Thralls -> Bane Knights,e ct.) but many staples, such as the arc nodes, a lot of the casters, the solos, and a few units (Zealots, Choir, Temple Flameguard, Iron Fang Pikemen, and Bile Thralls in particualr) did get used a bit.

Primal had even less of it really. I think for Circle the only things, to me, that outclassed what I had in Primal was either the thing sin the same book (Lord of the Feast v. Totem Hunter, Argus v. Gorax), or were used in tandum with them. I think I used all the units pretty regularly from that book all through MkII so far, save maybe Ravagers getting les screentime.

And stuff.

George Spiggott wrote:

I hear this quite a lot from people who don't play. But is it true, are Prime and Primal filled with models without purpose now the uber releases are out?

Anyone who says this does not know what they are talking about. I probably have something from prime/primal in every one of my lists, and they are quite compedative IMHO.

I never played MkI, but unless you are comparing MkII to Wrath then what is the point? Didn't they more or less rebalance all the units when they released Mk II?

Or are your friends complaining about how things were rebalanced from MkI to MkII?

Sounds to me like someone had an overpowered model or units from MkI and it got rebalanced so it wasn't king of the hill anymore. As someone who has gone thru many edition changes in 40K I can't really say I feel sorry for them. They just need to quite whining and figure out how to play in MkII.

Mordekiem wrote:I never played MkI, but unless you are comparing MkII to Wrath then what is the point? Didn't they more or less rebalance all the units when they released Mk II?

Or are your friends complaining about how things were rebalanced from MkI to MkII?

Sounds to me like someone had an overpowered model or units from MkI and it got rebalanced so it wasn't king of the hill anymore. As someone who has gone thru many edition changes in 40K I can't really say I feel sorry for them. They just need to quite whining and figure out how to play in MkII.

I never understood people complaining about the changes from MkI to MkII. IMHO they were really needed.

People feel the need to complain about just about everything. Just accept that 1) this is a game, and 2) it's probably going to change again in the future. Then just move on.

So here is a question; does Skarre running with a Satixs Raiders Unit, along with Malice, any good?

Also, how does an Undead Pirate Warband work with Skarre?

I don't see how Prime/Primal model could be useless and invalidated by new release, let me see for the model I play
Khador
PVlad, still there
pButcher still there (I like pButcher ALOT)
Juggernaut, Khador staple
WGI......
Widowsmaker !!!!, are you saying they are useless?

Cryx
I don't think I need to say anything of Cryx, Bane Thrall is in prime

Slarg232 wrote:So here is a question; does Skarre running with a Satixs Raiders Unit, along with Malice, any good?

Also, how does an Undead Pirate Warband work with Skarre?

Malice I'm not sure of.

But if you can cast Backlash onto an enemy battlegroup 'jack and then hit it
a bunch of times with Satyxis feedback whips, you're doing two points of damage
to the controlling caster for every hit that damages the warjack. If you don't
wreck the 'jack, you could potentially assassinate a 'caster this way.

malfred wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:So here is a question; does Skarre running with a Satixs Raiders Unit, along with Malice, any good?

Also, how does an Undead Pirate Warband work with Skarre?

Malice I'm not sure of.

But if you can cast Backlash onto an enemy battlegroup 'jack and then hit it
a bunch of times with Satyxis feedback whips, you're doing two points of damage
to the controlling caster for every hit that damages the warjack. If you don't
wreck the 'jack, you could potentially assassinate a 'caster this way.

See, that's what I was thinking of. (Sorry to hijack yet another thread) I am going to buy the 2P battlebox, and decided to give the Menoth compartment to my brother with a new baby, since he really has no money to spend now. So I am needing another army to let someone play (I might actually take to playing Cryx if whomever decides they like Strakhov...)


Malice is the one that has the giant Harpoon, right? I was thinking he could reel them in for the Raiders.

I really wish I had my copy of Prime MKII and Wrath with me right now. This topic has me wanting to compare some stuff. I've been making some lists that utilize Prime stuff along with Wrath and the forces book. Like its been mentioned, there are certain staples as well as some other stuff that are still good from the basic book.

Eiryss and the Piper are in Prime mkII. 'Nuff said.

Slarg232 wrote:
Malice is the one that has the giant Harpoon, right? I was thinking he could reel them in for the Raiders.

Malice is the character jack with the giant harpoon, yes. He can hit things and drag them in, but if he has a soul token on him (and he starts with one), he can 'poon a jack, drag it into base contact, make the free melee attack, and, if he hits, spend a soul token to take possession of the target jack, and either send it to go hit an enemy model, have it turn and shoot an enemy model, or just move itself somewhere less convenient for the other player.

(Sooner or later, my Cryx forces need a Malice. Dangit, too many factions, not enough kidneys to sell. . . .)

CPTPromotable wrote:Eiryss and the Piper are in Prime mkII. 'Nuff said.

I don't think the Piper is in Prime...

Is that...is that egg on my face? hot diggity dang i believe that's egg on my face!

Goes to show, always check your facts first! thanks malfred. still, lots of good units in the prime/al books

CPTPromotable wrote:Is that...is that egg on my face? hot diggity dang i believe that's egg on my face!

Goes to show, always check your facts first! thanks malfred. still, lots of good units in the prime/al books

Nah, no one threw egg.

It's just that I knew they kept Prime mk2 models the same aside from
the new 'jacks, and I remember Piper was in ye olde Escalation book. Prime
should have Boomhowler, Eiryss and Reinholdt (iirc).

I'm a little confused by this thread, is it referring to units that show up in the back of the main rulebook?

Laughing Man wrote:....and the free boost on the cannon only works with Captain Caveman.

Well, I'll never unsee that now--thanks!


I only play Cygnar and Minions---but I still use pNemo, pStryker and prime jacks. The Charger, Ironclad and Lancer are all prime---as were Gun Mages, Stormblades...

As an aside and slightly OT (but discussing new items v. old)--I saw someone talking about how Battle Engines were over the top in a thread yesterday. I've only played with my Storm Strider once so far--but it certainly wasn't overwhelming. ARM 18 is not impressive and I kept missing Ol' Rowdy for the 9 pts...

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:....and the free boost on the cannon only works with Captain Caveman.

Well, I'll never unsee that now--thanks!


I only play Cygnar and Minions---but I still use pNemo, pStryker and prime jacks. The Charger, Ironclad and Lancer are all prime---as were Gun Mages, Stormblades...

As an aside and slightly OT (but discussing new items v. old)--I saw someone talking about how Battle Engines were over the top in a thread yesterday. I've only played with my Storm Strider once so far--but it certainly wasn't overwhelming. ARM 18 is not impressive and I kept missing Ol' Rowdy for the 9 pts...

They made the Battle Engines something you have to build around, not something
that completely replaces your 9pt 'jacks.