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A not-quite-a-rookie, not-quite-competent Cygnar player asking for help here...

My main friend/rival at the local gaming shop is Khador (of course), and he likes to field Beast-09. I see nothing wrong with this: that's probably the best 11 points you can spend in a game. (Screw you Triumph!)

My problem is that I have NEVER managed to find a good counter for it. Khador has tons of movespeed buffs, and that freaking thing has an 11'' threat range and Pathfinder practically at will, especially given his owner's fondness for Winter Guard, Doomreavers, Widowmakers, etc.

It's a lose-lose proposition. Either devote my entire army to smashing that thing (failing too, I've never successfully wrecked Beast-09 anywhere but my fondest dreams) and get torn apart by the rest of his, or try to work around it, fail, and watch it wade hip-deep through the guts of my recently-eviscerated inner lines, charging down my caster.

Disruption barely works and often requires me to be too close to it for safety ANYWAY, and the thing hardly needs its imprint or extra attacks to butcher HORDES of infantry with a single well-placed charge (free with BC). Burning it down with ranged fire doesn't work: only the longest-range guns in the game prevent it from smashing the lights out of whatever shot it last turn, and its player is really good at not accidentally moving it into attack range of anything it shouldn't.

In short: help! What countermeasures exist for Beast-09 within a Cygnar force?

What caster are you playing?

I've utilized the Prime versions of Stryker, Nemo, and Haley, and none have quite measured up. Haley did BETTER, but not WELL.

Well..I'm unsure of how to deal with him from a Cygnar perspective other then knocking him down with Earthquake with Pstryker and then shooting him so he doesn't move. Unless, of course he's playing Irusk or Strahkov and has superiority upon him or you don't have magical shots for our friend Vlad.


Also a hunter or defender marshaled by the Gunmage UA has a range that is just silly.

Both of these things are not uncommon, nor are the Sorschas and their... various shenanigans.

SpectralTime wrote:Both of these things are not uncommon, nor are the Sorschas and their... various shenanigans.

*Hides his Strakhov and Beast 09 behind his back*

Pfft, no those are super rare! Yeah I know..sorry but beast is just silly good.

Take a hunter or two.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiHunter

Two shots and Beast will be feeling it tomorrow.

I've taken one before, but it's never enough, not even with boosted damage and shooting it twice before it's able to charge.

Don't have two though. Hmmm...

Doesn't beast also have hyper aggressive? so if you damage him he moves towards the attacking model? if so shooting it ineffectually isn't the best option.

First thing to mention is that I do not play Cygnar so I can't give you specific counters but I have a couple of ideas.

Seige's feat will enable things to put the major hurt on beast be that within combat or shooting. But you don't have him so that's not really an option.

You say that he mows through your infantry. How are you placing them? Remeber that they can be really spread out as they only have to be within X" of the leader. Have a look at this youtube for ideas on how to place your models. You should only be loosing 2/3 models to a charge from Beast.

A couple of mercs you might want to look at: Eiryss and Gorman. Two of my favourite support pieces. Eiryss can supply disruption from 12" away and not on a line to your caster. When Beast is within 5" of Eiryss2 he can't get focus so isn't going to be able to make extra attacks or hit Eiryss. Gorman can protect your caster by laying down smoke between beast and his target or blind beast and thus he'll have to forfeit move or action next turn.

Knock it down and then distrupt beast and then it can't shake knockdown.

Use the defender's shock hammer to knock out the cortex, 3 hits and it's gone, excluding any other damage you might have done.

Use arc nodes to extend spell ranges as all of those casters you have mentioned have something that can be used against beast:

Haley1: Scramble
Nemo1: Voltaic Snare
Stryker1: Earthquake

If you're unsure about arc nodes then Boosted Damage and Warcast are a couple of podcasts you might want to listen to.

Hope this helps.

Have you tried nemo with a stormclad? locomotion 3 and charge 8 with reach and 5 focus. That should take out anything short of a buffed devastator/demolisher and if it dose not you can always disrupt what's left with a stormsmith to minimize the retaliation.

Soften him up with a defender or hunter and then hit him with an ironcald or another melee jack. Beast is good but isn't unkillable.

Play eHaley or eNemo then? eHaley can stops charges I think, besides that your best bet now is 2 hunters, or well Siege with a defender and feat, make the thing HURT before it comes to you

Retrias wrote:Play eHaley or eNemo then? eHaley can stops charges I think, besides that your best bet now is 2 hunters, or well Siege with a defender and feat, make the thing HURT before it comes to you

Casper wrote:Soften him up with a defender or hunter and then hit him with an ironcald or another melee jack. Beast is good but isn't unkillable.

This should help cripple Beast enough that even if it survives you won't worry
too much about the retaliation.


pHaley's feat will give your guns and melee 'jacks the output they need to trash beast.

Nemo's Voltaic Snare is dirty. Being on the receiving end of this spell always ruins
my day.

If you knock 'beast down with an earthquake, you can pop a shot with stryker to
also disrupt beast safely. No focus, no shake effects.

Also keep in mind- Beast09 isnt any tougher than a regular Juggernaught. Hes faster and hits harder- but has the same def/arm.

For pNemo- do not underestimate Voltaic Snare via arc node. It can shut down a jack like beast and let you shoot it more.

pHaley can try Scramble. Its situational and can backfire half the time. But if theres a 50/50 chance 09 would turn around and trample any models that might be behind him- it can be worth it. It can also run him closer so you can charge him

Gunamges. Thunderbolt is one of the least utilized tools Ive seen in the Cygnar arsenal. 6 or 7 shots that push an opponent d3 inches and knock down on a crit... Marshal a jack like a Hunter or Charger- they can fire last. So your ATGMs push the enemy jack 10" or more aaway- then the Charger with its 12", or hunter with 14" can push it another 3". (Combined with Nemos Voltaic Snare you can take a Jack out of the game for essentially two turns).

CRA's from Long gunners or Trenchers, Sniped if possible.

A Centurion. Put the Cent at the tip of a wedge formation. If 09 tries to charge past him at the infantry, he risks a P+S 18 attack from the Cents reach weapon.

Ol Rowdy set up for a counter charge? if 09 does get his charge in- Rowdy can counter charge. Drop a Tremor attack and knock him down- it totally counters his charge attempt and can leave him lying there for your entire turn...

One you knock him down- disrupt disrupt disrupt. Make sure that if 09 lives through your turn he wont be able to just stand up and shake off.

And last- speed bump sacrificial infantry. Sword Knights, Alexia & a bunch of undead. Or a couple of stormsmiths on the flanks to try and annoy him into a bad position


Thats all I can come up with off the top of my head

As a cryx player I can sympathise, but not empathise. Disposable infantry is your friend. if you throw out a screen of something a bit crappy (Sword knights, Steelhead mercs) they can slow down beast, keep him at range, so that each turn you lose one or two infantry, and then can make a massive CRA with your long gunners/gunmages/defenders. I think you are feeling a bit scared to advance TOWARDS beast. Just because cygnar is a gunline, doesn't mean you should stay far away, advance towards, take the charge with an Ironclad, Beast isn't unkillable, but he will tear you a new one on the charge, so by getting there first (with weaponmaster units or Melee Heavy's) you will kill it good, or at least cripple an arm system or two.

Also don't forget, Beast is only one model, and it's going to be about a third of his army! So just avoid it, knocking it down, and make sure your own assassination run goes off through his flimsy support, and it won't matter that beast is nomming on your infantry. Acceptable loss!

DEFENDER can CRA? HOLY !!!! Don't CRA gunmages, instead as Mistress said knock it back to it's line, beast runs for free, so as long as you keep pushing him at least the measure of him running/chargin against you, you shouldn't have any trouble , Otherwise use a centi, and arcane shield it , proceed to play the stabbing game with beast, AFTER you shoot beast

With a fast moving Beast 09, it's important to have a tarpit or sacrificial unit to slow him down initially, and then a counter unit that can kill or at least severely damage him in melee.
Shooting him just makes him come closer anyway, so I wouldn't go in for that unless it was going to knock him down or do overwhelming damage.
He'll probably get to charge and kill something, the way to beat him is to try and force him into charging something he's not so keen on fighting (so something cheap but tough, for example). If he doesn't charge your sacrificial unit (say he tramples over them, or angles to move around them) then you might be able to pull off some other tricks. If he tramples them, that's probably okay as he won't get much further and he'll have to buy attacks, so he's a lot less dangerous and then you can counter attack and mess him up. If he angles to move around your tarpit, you have a couple of options. You can shoot him to try and pull him closer, and then charge him with something of your own (maybe your tarpit, or you might get lucky with a better pain delivery system.)
Or, you can ignore him for that turn and reposition your tarpit in his way.
It's not foolproof and requires good positioning and understanding of how to layer your troops, but once you get the hang of it beast becomes more manageable. To me, a more scary combo is Beast 09 paired with a Devastator. The Devastator is itself an amazing tarpit, and it's brilliant at taking out enemy tarpits. That tends to make the fight a lot more of a cut and thrust brawl, where you need to be bringing some serious trickyness to the fight.

A tarpit unit isnt a necessity with a gunline. Its an option, but if you dont have a tarpit in your list you can still take 09 out.

Divide and conquer. If you cant knock him down and disrupt- keep shooting him. Just make sure you have your own beatstick loaded up with focus. You use your shooting to pull Beast INTO your charge range- all by himself. Than you charge him. This lets you focus a couple of your jacks or heavy hitting weapon infantry onto a single target. A good Khador player might not fall for it and opt to not move- but that still means youre doing shooting damage and might take out a system or two.

My 2 cents:

I believe that shooting beast can make it rather easy if you have good ranged units. A unit of longunners with snipe can CMA and place 2 high strength shots into beast. When he uses hyper aggressive to close on them make sure you have something to counter the thing, like an ironclad. It should be able to finish of beast after 2 such shots rather well with minimal extra focus.

Remember that using Hyper aggressive will also let him get to you faster, but also out of range of his caster faster. Use that against him whenever you Can!!

FWIW: I am not a cygnar player, but more cryx/menoth, but this tactic (potshot, if he moves finisch with something else) works for all factions. Try it and tactics like luring him out by giving him a tasty-looking charge then destroy him on the counter.


Edit: I should read entire previous post before posting my own advice Still some of what I wrote is not covered elsewhere, so it is still a valid tip...

Have something cheap/disposable in your army
Shoot Beast
If he advances towards you, charge him with a counter unit. If he's out of range for a charge, run a cheap/disposable infantry man you don't care about into hth with him

Gun Mage push back has been pretty successful for me too. If you get a crit, then throw a disruption on him and he's out of the game for another turn.

As has been said before, Beast-09 is no more survivable than any other Khadoran warjack. The key is to ensure that YOU are charging IT, and not the other way around.

pHaley seems like your best bet. Remember that Boundless Charge--the most common SPD buff Khador has for its warjacks--only gives bonus movement when charging. This means that under Temporal Barrier or any other effect that prevents charging, Boundless Charge is useless.

The Stormclad should be your best friend. It is a hefty chunk of points, but Reach and a very high MAT and P&S means it's capable of scrapping even Khadoran jacks with 3 focus. Its ability to generate another focus if standing near a Stormsword/knight just about guarantees that it can crush even the Beast.

Don't forget Arcane Shield on certain warcasters and the Journeyman Warcaster, either. Almost nothing buffs Khadoran warjack damage. Arcane Shield will effectively give whatever heavy Beast is attacking an additional 12 'free' boxes, which is enough that Beast can't kill most heavies in a single turn.

Cygnar also has access to a pretty good Merc pool. Gorman DiWulfe has both Black Oil and Rust Bomb. If you're in a position where you have a Stormclad lined up for the charge, then Rust Bomb drops ARM20 to ARM18; effectively a 'free' 8 damage when the Stormclad is whacking away. If you don't think a kill is guaranteed, or you just need time to deal with the rest of his list, Black Oil will reduce its MAT to 3, it can't charge, and has to forfeit either movement or action on its next turn. This is an AoE, so if Gorman starts within 10" of Beast he is guaranteed to hit, even with scatters.

If Gorman isn't your cup of tea, Eiryss. Eiryss can keep Beast disrupted so that it can't be allocated any focus. With no focus, Beast can't charge, can't use its Imprint, and is only moderately effective against other Heavies.

And another merc to add to sourclams list is Aiyanna & Holt, have Aiyanna cast kiss of lyliss to add +2 to damage rolls against it.

ever consider ignoring it and bumrushing his warcaster? I play Cryx and thats pretty much all I do. I feel like an NFL team taking on 6 year olds.

As for Mistress of Minis.... Good to see youre still dispensing wisdom that matches the Quality of your paint jobs.

sourclams wrote:
Don't forget Arcane Shield on certain warcasters and the Journeyman Warcaster, either. Almost nothing buffs Khadoran warjack damage. Arcane Shield will effectively give whatever heavy Beast is attacking an additional 12 'free' boxes, which is enough that Beast can't kill most heavies in a single turn.

Except pButcher & eSorcha's feat, Fury, and things that let you have either free boosts or higher averages like Unearthly Rage and Signs and Portents (all of which are on the top tier casters for Khador) as well as all the stationary effects that Khador has that make it impossible to miss in melee, then you are correct.

Epic Eiryss makes arcane shield a moot point as well.

As others have said there are a variety of ways, but none can be said to be easy because in the end you have to hit and damage with those damned square things on the table!

I run eHaley a lot recently with Gun Mages + the Unit Attachment - give two Defenders to them =

3 boostable shots at 20" range standing still and 25" range after moving or you can do CRitical Brutal (which Haley helps with). I have found a trick:

Shoot the 3 shots (Haley gives an extra shot with a spell) - and boost damage, Def10 is easy to hit) you hopefully will bust him up a bit, but at same time Beast-09 will most likely move up 8" or so. Now open up with a few Gunmages using Thunderbolt and push him back. If you want you can also you Critical brutal here to try and junk Beast-09's movement).

Twice I laid out 3 shots doing full damage to columns 1,2,3 and some to 5 then shifting Thunderbolt shots to push him back. It forced Sorscha to move up to give focus only to realize its movement and axe were toast which essentially made Beast-09 useless as a threat.

Gun Mages controlling Defenders is nasty if you can keep your distance, thats why many run a Centurion or Storm clad in those lists.

That is quite a bit of your point investment isn't? just to stop beast . ibodger says 26 points, you now only have a couple of points left to get in somewhere, if you then get a centy , you only have 5 point left.

Ya, marshalling 2 defenders seems excessive for the one or two shots they may or may not get off depending on the terrain.

The definitive Cygnar ranged hard counter to Khador heavies is the Defender. With a boosted damage shot you should be able to hit him twice before he gets to you. With decent rolls you can knock out vital systems.

Just make sure you have additional units that can deal with him if he chooses to activate Hyper Aggressive. (Remember that if he chooses to use Hyper Aggressive, he must make a FULL ADVANCE DIRECTLY TOWARDS the model that shot him)

Marshall one defender instead , put them in opposite direction, in a v/arrow shape with beast as the "point" , begin shooting , put counter charge unit in the middle so that you can counter Beast ( Centurion works great for this)