Switch Theme:

DE IG Grudge Match!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dakkites!

So glad the forums are back up! For those of you who were following the battle reps and DE competative threads Xtapl and I have finished our grudge match and writing and editing the text for our Dark Eldar vs. Imperial Guard battlereport! It is here! For those who haven't, and now probably can't review or follow those threads...

I (and others) have been critical of DE as an army in various posts. I was surprised to see an article for tactics about them in WD 309 by an author I did not recognize named Chris. The tactics article had come out in WD simultaneously with a raging debate about DE tactics/competativeness/validity etc. right here! I then started a new thread and wrote a critical but positive review of the article (with its amazing converted DE army!) here on Dakka at the time when WD309 was new. I was rebutted by the Author! Who as fate would have it, was also in Colorado where I am!

I asked him if he wanted to play a game and post the battle report and he agreed to do it!

The match was on! What follows are the results of our match up!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The armies are as follows:

*Forgive me, this post may be edited, I had to guess at Xtapl's exact army comp, I created text files from memory, we had posted our armies, but that was before DakkaDakkarmageddon... Xtapl if you read this and I have it wrong PM me or email and I'll correct it ASAP other readers please recognize this. Corrected 11/7/2005, DE list edited for accuracy.

***

Kabal of Eternal Sorrow 1850 Pts - Dark Eldar Army
 

Dracon (HQ)
Power Weapon, Combat Drugs, Reaver Jetbike, Tormentor Helm, Plasma Grenades, Animus Vitae

Dracon (HQ)
Power Weapon, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, Reaver Jetbike, Tormentor Helm, Plasma Grenades

9 Wyches (Elites)
Splinter P. & CCW (x9); Wych Weapons
Succubus - Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Wych Weapons; Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Dark Lance

9 Raider Squad (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x7); Splinter Cannon (x1); Blaster (x1)
Sybarite w/ Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Disintegrator

9 Raider Squad (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x7); Splinter Cannon (x1); Blaster (x1)
Sybarite w/ Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Disintegrator

10 Warriors (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

10 Warriors (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

5 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x3); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

4 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x2); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

4 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x2); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

Ravager (Heavy Support)
Disintegrator (x3)

Ravager (Heavy Support)
Disintegrator (x3)

Models in Army: 73

Total Army Cost: 1848


***

Tanhauser 501st Trenchfighters 1850 Pts - IG: Doctrines Army

Choose Doctrines
Allow Conscripts
Allow Ogryns
Allow Heavy Weapon Platoons
Allow Rough Riders
Skills and Drills: Light Infantry

1 Command Platoon (HQ) @ 511 Pts

3 Command Squad @ [121] Pts
Mortar; Lasguns (x1); Plasma Gun (x1)

1 Heroic Senior Officer @ [80] Pts
Close combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol

1 Veteran @ [21] Pts
Plasma Pistol; Lasgun; Standard Bearer

6 Anti Tank Squad #3 @ [105] Pts
Missile Launcher (x3); Lasguns; Light Infantry

6 Anti Tank Squad #4 @ [105] Pts
Missile Launcher (x3); Lasguns; Light Infantry

6 Fire Support Squad #1 @ [90] Pts
Heavy Bolter (x3); Lasguns; Light Infantry

6 Fire Support Squad #2 @ [90] Pts
Heavy Bolter (x3); Lasguns; Light Infantry

1 Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 255 Pts

4 Command Squad @ [85] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns (x1); Plasma Gun (x2)

1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

30 Conscripts (Troops) @ 120 Pts

4 Ogryns (Elites) @ 146 Pts
Ripper Gun; Frag Grenades

1 Ogryn Bone 'ead @ [46] Pts
Close combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Frag Grenades

9 Rough Riders (Fast Attack) @ 116 Pts
Hunting Lances

1 Rough Rider Veteran Sergeant @ [17] Pts
Laspistol; Hunting Lance

9 Rough Riders (Fast Attack) @ 146 Pts
Hunting Lances

1 Rough Rider Veteran Sergeant @ [47] Pts
Laspistol; Hunting Lance
Honorifica Imperialis [25]
Melta Bombs [5]

1 Heavy Weapon Platoon (Heavy Support) @ 306 Pts

4 Command Squad @ [66] Pts
Mortar; Lasguns (x1); Grenade Launcher (x2)

1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

6 Mortar Squad #1 @ [80] Pts
Mortars (x3); Lasguns

6 Mortar Squad #2 @ [80] Pts
Mortars (x3); Lasguns

6 Mortar Squad #3 @ [80] Pts
Mortars (x3); Lasguns

1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Models in Army: 134
Total Army Cost: 1850
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





DE IG Grudge Match Bat Rep:

Xtapl aka Chris, the DE player and author of the WD 309 article. I, Augustus, aka Damien was the IG player! Pictures on the way!

Armies:

Please see the other post for the armies!

Pre Game Commentary:

Chris's Pre-Game Thoughts:
I showed up at the joint a little early, and Damian had already been there the night before, so his army was laid out nicely next to the table. I was struck by how well-painted it was. To be honest, outside of tournaments, I don?t really run across that many armies that impress me. People just don?t take the time to make armies look spectacular any more, but I digress. At any rate, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little dismayed at the army composition when I first saw it. Three mortars, I wouldn?t have had a problem with. Eleven mortars was just plain ridiculous, in my opinion, when coupled with two Basilisks. In a tournament situation, a little indirect fire is to be expected. An entire army of it, though? Granted, I did think they used the 5? template, but even still, I felt like the fix was in on the experiment. I had come with a take-all-comers tournament army, and my opponent had brought an army specifically designed to destroy me. It was the proverbial knife-at-a-gun-fight situation. But I had driven for over an hour to get to the game, and if my Dark Eldar were as good as I think they are, then it shouldn?t matter what?s in my opponent?s army, right? If Damian had shown up and been a jerk about it, I probably wouldn?t have played. But he was a really nice guy right off the bat, and even offered to change his list around, so I agreed to just play against the army as is.

Damien's Pre-Game Thoughts:
When we reviewed each others armies Chris? army was about how I had expected it to be from the article he had written and he told me he hadn?t played for a while since his move to Colorado. Unfortunately my army was a surprise for him. I had some converted models for an IG heavy platoon with mortars including old thud guns from the 80s that were apparently a bigger surprise than Chris was expecting. He did not like the mortar units, and said that no one would take them to a tournament, and that our experiment grudge match was voided by my choice. I believe he was originally under the impression that they fired an ordinance barrage, either each or collectively, and was unaware that they are actually small blasts S4 AP6. I conceded that they were rare in tournaments and potentially effective vs. DE and asked him if he would like me to change my list, I had come prepared with all my IG units and could easily have swapped out the Heavy platoon for a number of things. After a bit of discussion regarding the mortars Chris agreed to play as we had come!

General Rules:

Chris and I easily agreed to a few rules interpretations before the game began including: Infinite Cylinder for area terrain, Infinite Cylinder for vehicle wrecks. Terrain at about 25% including 4+ cover saves for trees. We determined that we would use a GT mission from my collection from playing this year (I have a dossier with copies of all 10). This also meant using strategy rating to determine who got choice of side and also who went first. We also agreed to play a Gamma game without rolling to make use of the standard set of rules for Infiltration, Deep Strike and Dusk and Dawn. Chris absolutely refused to play escalation,?

(Chris: Escalation sucks balls. Period. It completely ruins the game by biasing the match in favor of whoever decided not to use transports. I think they?ve hosed transports enough in the general rules, thank you very much. Escalation is an abomination I do not deal with outside of tournaments, when I do so only under complete duress.)

?and I don?t really like it either but was prepared to toss a D6 for it. Chris rolled a D10 for the mission; I had a copy of all 10 of the GT missions for the current season. He rolled a 4, and the 4th mission sheet in the book was Scouting Engagement. Which we sadly played slightly wrong. It was supposed to be a mission in which just the compulsory troops go down first in opposite corners in 16 inch ?L? shaped deployment zones, and then the rest are in reserve. We had followed the normal setup for our whole armies and discovered it afterward so we decided to play anyway, (especially since we had agreed not to play escalation style, previously, and didn?t want to mess with the reserve rolls).

The Board:

The Valhalla?s Game Center management has a special set of terrain they use exclusively for RTs and special events at their store including special terrain, sculpted, sanded and painted tables. They had agreed to set one up for our game and had placed a 4x6 battlefield in their spacious miniatures game room exclusively for Chris and my use all day. We would share the room with a few onlookers but largely have it to ourselves for most of the day! Chris had pulled out all the trees and set up ΒΌ of the board with tree patches by the time I arrived Sunday morning. He was of the opinion that the 25% coverage was a standard; this had resulted in about 16 tree patches. I thought that was a bit much and we agreed on about 10 instead. Chris finished the board setup (before we rolled for the missions, or discussed armies in much detail), with a roughly even placement around the board and in the center! At this point we were ready to play!


Setup:

We rolled strategy for sides and I actually got to choose despite my meager single die roll of 3, Chris had thrown a 1 and a 2 on his dice. I chose the Outside corner on my side because it was close to my army and a bit better I thought than the other corner on my side. Chris had set up a pretty balanced board and I think I could have gone anywhere, actually, and still played a fair game.

In a completely unsurprising and characteristically IG move I put a basilisk in the corner for a HS choice. Chris placed a Ravager behind the center trees on his side. I placed my 2nd basilisk in the corner behind the same trees as the first. Chris placed his second ravager behind another tree set on my left flank. I set my mortar company up in the center behind a wood I filled later with conscripts and Ogryns in progressive lines and Chris went on to put all his troop choices behind the same 2 forests the ravagers were in, some of the troops went into the forests themselves in the center. I concluded by placing my Rough Rider bikes on the 2 flanks, one each, on each side and Chris put all his HQs and DE bikes on the forest edges, largely concealed on his side. Finally I took my infiltrators and extreme flanked with all 4 units of them in hopes I might go first and shoot behind those woods Chris had set his entire army behind. I infiltrated a squad each of rocket launchers and heavy bolters on both of the corners not in a deployment zone for hard little heavy weapons flankers.

After a roll of ?2? for the dusk and dawn we realized it was just a strait up fight! The game was finally on!

Ig Battle Line:


*4 Units of Flanking heavy weapons teams not pictured* 2 are on the left corner and 2 on the right corner.

De Sudden Ambush:


Turn 1:

Chris?s First Turn:
Go, go, two strategy dice to one! I got first turn, and, uncharacteristically for me, I decided to go first. Normally, I?m of the opinion that first turn is overrated, and that it?s the bottom of the sixth turn that wins or loses games. However, with a bunch of sneaky Guardsmen infiltrating on my flanks, and me bunched up and facing all the indirect fire ever invented, I need to get the ?F? out of dodge quickly. That meant making a few early sacrifices. The right flank looked like the easier one to dispose of, since the left flank was where the Heavy Bolters were, so I decided to move out on the right. In retrospect, the deployment of those Heavy Bolters were the absolute #1 deciding factor of the game. If they hadn?t been placed there, or if he hadn?t taken any at all, I would have gleefully charged up that flank, facing only two lascannons and a handful of missile launchers that I would have wiped out in two turns. I could have then gone on to smoke the Basilisks, and it would have been a completely different game. The Heavy Bolters, though, had the potential to rip through my army, and facing six of them was a daunting prospect. I was willing to sacrifice some troops to get rid of the infiltrating three, but the other three effectively made that side of the board off limits. I moved a Raider Squad over here to deal with the Heavy Bolters, and dumped the squad out, in case the Raider went down. I also brought a Ravager over there, just in case. The rest of my army went right, with one squad of Jetbikes hanging back in case there was a problem on the left. I advanced my Jetbikes to the center of the board, confident that they would be unmolested for at least a turn. A hail of disintegrator fire from the Ravager completely annihilated the infiltrating missile launchers, and the combined firepower of the Ravager, Raider, and Raider Squad got rid of the infiltrating Heavy Bolters and some of the missile launcher loaders. I was still facing three missile launchers, but better that than three Heavy Bolters. Not a bad first turn at all, all things considered.

IG Turn 1:

Chris had proven how moble the DE army was right away. Honestly I have to admit a ravager is a pretty fearsome thing! Capable of 9 shots that kill marines or three plasma cannon style templates. Going second cost me 3 units already. The game proves to be everything I had hoped. A tough match. Chris knows his stuff, I suppose White Dwarf wouldn't have picked him as an author otherwise. I start the game down almost 3 hundred VPs. My Roughriders on the left flank advance for a tree patch and a potential charge, but roll abysmal dificult rolls and end up hanging out of the forest with more than 50% of the models outside it. My other rough riders advanced center and the gunline prepares to unload! No other moves. Ordinance destroys Left flank warrior raider near the woods, the target I was hoping to charge with the roughriders; several warriors die in the blast. I can't bel;ieve Chris left wytches in a raider and ran them at my left flank! So I target them with a blast and the ordinance also destroys their raider! In an amazing set of rolls only 1 wytch dies in the blast. I thought for sure the unit was dead with their 6+ armor save and rerolled emergency disembarcation saves, but fate was not so generous. The remnants of the squad on the right flank open fire on the raider there and stun it and blow the desintigrator off. The squad that disembarked takes 6 kills from mortars and pass their morale and pin test. Finally the rough riders, eager to charge the emergency disembarked warriors fail their charge with twin 2s and stay in the woods, leaving them in a very untenable situation.

Turn 2:

DE Turn 2

DE Second Turn:
Yep. I was beginning to regret not making Damien change his list after all. But I was the one who agreed to face whatever Damian brought, so it was time to suck it up and put on my general?s hat. I took some massive casualties in the first turn, having one of my major fighting units completely gutted and probably out of the game, even with Fleet of Foot. Yes, I had gotten lucky and only lost one model, but with a strict time limit imposed, tournament-style, and them being entangled on the far side of the board, my poor Wyches would probably never see combat. I decided that it was going to be ?go big or go home? day for the Dark Eldar. I advanced my entire fleet of Jetbikes to the center of the table, figuring on my turn, I could leapfrog the forest and get into combat, where I could probably roll the mortars and save my foot squads from further damage. As I had planned, I swept my army away from the Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher end of the table, and regrouped center-to-right. My general and her retinue went ahead and leapt over the forest, engaging the Roughriders, and in a hail of brutal blows, wipe out eight of them. The other two break and flee, but I couldn?t give chase because I had no base to base contact. I found myself staring down the entire IG army, so I had no choice but to consolidate into the wood and hope the cover saves would work out.

IG Turn 2

Chris had gotten another unit of mine, the roughriders who had failed to charge or enter the woods, were anihilated! I knew an assault in the center was inevitable but I had hoped to counter charge or at least take some models with me with the roughriders. Instead the conscripts repositioned all in the wood, to rapid fire at bikes, and hide in the cover. I wanted chris to have to try and charge into the woods and have to make the difficult terrain checks for bikes there! The Ogryns moved away from the bikes into the woods and the conscript line, intentionally trying to set up a counter charge, and be out of consolidation range of the bikes should the worst happen! The rocket launchers on right flank move up, as there suddenly weren't any DE over there anymore! Remaining roughriders spread out and move up slightly intending to counter charge the DE bikes, eventually. DE foot in the center of the board are routed by massed fire, mortars and direct fire from the right flank gunline.
3 DE bikes die from short range fire from the platoons command section, rapid fire conscripts and a long range las cannon shot across the board out of the gunline! I shoot S4 mortars at a ravager, hitting it dead on, and it is armor 11? whoops! A basilisk misses the 2nd wave of bikes on my left flank completely. The other deviates and causes no kills. Amazingly, No assaults!

Turn 3:

DE Turn 3

(This is a side note: I completely f-ing *HATE* the way Ordinance works now. HATE HATE HATE. I don?t understand why every army that can take Ordinance isn?t chock full of it. Getting rid of guess ranges was a SUPER good idea ... but I digress.) Well, this was going to be it. Do or die time. I pulled one Ravager around to try and get an open shot at the soft part of the IG army, while the rest of my army prepared for combat. I popped off a dissy salvo at one mortar squad, wiping out half of it and putting a wound on an Ogryn. Then, I lined up both Dracons and both retinues, and charged right into the heart of the IG army. As expected, it wasn?t pretty. The entire Platoon Command and half of the mortar squads went down, but the IG Flag reroll kept the buggers in the combat. I consolidated in, hoping the Shadow Field on my general would keep her safe from the Ogryns.

IG Turn 3

A heroic officer and a flag is a great thing! The officer's leadership keeps all the units in the melee, and the flag reroll saved the mortar squad, that had failed, from running! I have seen the mass melee in the center many times. While I had lost a lot of troops in the melee, the conscripts weren't below half and their tail end was right by the HQ! The Conscripts circle the DE bikes for a counter charge! The Ogryns move out of the woods in the movement phase and do the same. Basilisks, reposition, one spins the other backs up and rotates for direct fire. The remaining Rough riders move up to almost board center for a counter charge (hopefully turn 4) into the middle! The Anti tank squad, with the rocket launchers are confident they have won the day as there are no DE on their entire half of the board and they move up again! Ordinance kills a ravager with a direct hit and a 6! The other Ordinance misses. The one squad of remaining Mortars direct fire and miss. The assault phase is a surprise for chris, Ogryns and Conscripts charge the DE bikes! They go first and kill 5 conscripts and an Ogryn; the Ogryns land all their attacks on the Drakkon with the Shadow field, he rolls 5 saves, casting a 1 and dies from instant death to S6, the remaining attacks kill 3 more bikes. Chris is visualy demoralized to see his first Drakkon go down. Even still, IGl loose the melee but pass all their morale checks thanks to the IG flag and officer LD9. Chris says at this point ?the route is on?

Turn 4:

DE Turn 4

The rout was definitely on at this point, but I don?t give up that easily. I was going to play for the draw to the last man, which I was dangerously close to having at this point. I dropped off the small Raider squad for a last minute charge, while pulling my Ravager around to get off final shots. The Ravager salvo pops down four Roughriders, while the Raider squad nails another with the Splinter Cannon. My last Jetbike squad pulls into the scrum, swinging away and dumping five conscripts and an Ogryn, while the Raider Squad assault wipes out the rest of the Roughriders and consolidates into the HQ *(mortar) squad. Of course, the Ogryns beat the living gak out of my other Dracon and instakill her too. The shock of the third bike assault, however, was too much for the squads to handle, and Damian had forgotten to move his Flag Bearer on the last turn *( to consolidate him after the mlee they won in my hth T4 phase) , so it was just out of range. Without LD9, the Jetbikes easily cut down the Ogryns and Conscripts as they ran. I say to myself, ?I should consolidate there, but I won?t get another turn and can?t get into combat with anyone, so I?ll just leave them there.? Famous last words and all that...

*Damien added for clarity. Chris had kind of summarized the entire last turn here.

IG Turn 4

The Heroic Officer HQ moves to counter charge the remnant DE squad in HtH with the servitors (mortar crew) in IG Right flank and anihilates them all in the ensuig melee. Indirect fire destroys the olast ravager. Rockets fire at wytches, but they do not go below 50%. Las fire damages the raider in the center by removing its gun. I fight the 2 melees and in the first one I kill all the DE with my Heroic Senior officer. I figure Chris has surrendered, so I don't move anymore models there... We roll the last melee and I actually lost it to the bikes and loose both of the squads, conscripts and Ogryns, to failed morale rolls as the officer was just out of 12 and they are below 50%!

Post Game:

Quadrants are a wash, 2 each, VP score is calculated as a difference of 301, a solid victory for the IG

Chris:

So guess what? Those bikes I forgot to consolidate? Yeah, they were worth 250 points. Had I consolidated 3?, the whole squad would have been in the quadrant instead of only one bike, giving me another contested quadrant. I would have had two quadrants held, Damian would have had one, and one would have been contested. As it was, quadrants washed out with two held a piece. Totaling up the scores, it was a difference of 301 points, which was a solid victory for the IG. Had I consolidated, it would have been a 49 point difference, which certainly would have been a draw.

I had a pretty good time in this game, all things considered. I can?t remember the last time I lost both Dracons in a game, and I?ve never, EVER lost them in the same assault with the same unit. The indirect fire turned out to be as bad as I thought it would be, but I think I handled it pretty well. Damian was a cagey veteran who had more than one trick up his sleeve, but I hung in as best I could. I took what was quite possibly the worst matchup for Dark Eldar in the entire game and still came within 3? of a draw. If the time limit hadn?t expired, I might have been able to get the Wyches in a position to charge, and the Jetbikes were in a place where they could roll the entire line, with decent dice and a little luck. But ?ifs and buts? ain?t candy and nuts, and all that. I lost, fair and square, and I make no excuses about it. Damian had a bad moment, too, where he forgot to move his Flag Bearer and it cost him two very important squads, so we were even on the bad luck front. I just hope that I?ve gone a little way toward showing one of the board?s biggest DE ?h8rz? exactly how ?viable? a DE army can be...

Damien:

Emperor be praised! I had a good time in this game, it was tense! Chris was a great opponent, and I always enjoy fights where both of the armies are well painted! It was stunning! I wish I was more skilled at taking pictures!

Chris had some questions about the tournament army I had brought. I regret leaving him with a questionable feeling on army choice, but it wasn't really up to me. All I can say is I played my army the way it was because of my theme! I had converted my Ogryns from OK bulls, made a unit of 30 Ork battle slaves with Las rifles as conscripts and had a mortar platoon made from old OOP Thud Guns. All of these units contrbuted to the theme of my army as a trench fighter force from Tanhauser (their fluffy planet). I modled them all after the Trench Infantry Dave Taylor had made from bretonians, and it was a lot of conversion work and painting. I was proud of them all, I have taken to calling them, Mother Green and the Killing Machine for their drab green paint jobs! Despite Chris' fear of the mortars, I think they had done little in the game. The mortar platoon was over 300 points all told and I had lost most of it at games end. Perhaps the presence attack was enough though? I was admittedly thrilled when the Ogryns insta killed both Drakkons, something I was hoping I might t get to try! In my evaluation, rocket launchers, mortars, and Ogryns are pretty poor army choices overall though. In addition to theme, and to try and make the pictures I wanted to post later cooler, I had also decided to take them anyway because I believed they would be a handicap. Hopefully making the 2 armies a bit closer. I didn't want to play 6+ heavy weapon teams of Las Cannons and Heavy boltersand a load of walkers, though I own the painted models.

Smiling and being generous while loosing or behind is the measure of a great player, and Chris was both! I have great respect for Chris, (and anyone else who chooses not to play MEq), who wielded what I feel is a sub par army with great panache, paints and converts like a master artist, and writes great articles. However I have to conclude, that despite all of Chris' skill, the DE failed to defeat even a mediocre IG army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pictures are coming, under construction! I just got to tired to do anymore...

Hope ya like it all!
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




Nice Batrep. Thanks for sharing but one question:
Why only 4 turns?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Nice timing getting the rep out on the new boards! And pics too! Good stuff, and thanks!

- Boss Salvage

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




The world is quiet here.

@chaoskas: Tournament time limit. We only got four turns in because we had set a strict time limit before we began.

@Augustus: I suppose there are many definitions of "mediocre." I guess, "would completely get rocked in a tournament because it's specifically designed to defeat one army and one army only, which it did" would be among them...


For the record, my list was listed incorrectly. I'll fill this space with the corrected list when I get home tonight.


"If someone brings 9 oblits and four pies to the table he is pretty much ruining my game. One way I could not let him ruin it would involve a large lump hammer rapidly and repeatly contacting his army/face/groin, but that would probably be frowned upon." - Jessica Dejong on TWF  
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Boston

Great report, and a worthy kick-off for the new Dakka bat-reps sub-forum.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hi guys

Good battle report.

I can't comment much on the IG. Mortars are an odd choice, although, strangely, possibly useful against DE. That DE eldar army, however, strikes me as very weak. Its certainly not what I would take to a tournament.

Questions:

i) Why Drachons? The extra A and W are worth the points. Similarly, why both on bikes? i use one, simply because i like the 'loon on bike' concept, but the ' IC Archon on foot' seems to be the favoured delivery system for tournament UK standard DE armies. 6+d6+12 charge range using punisher, animus and drugs to achieve S6.

ii) Only 10 Wyches and all in 1 squad? Eggs in 1 basket? What will 10 Wyches kill that 6 Wyches won't kill? And why no agoniser on the Succubus? That's required for a tournament army surely?

iii) Why 14 man dark lance squads? You don't need surplas men here surely?

iv) Sybarites with power weapons and combat drugs??? What on earth on these going to do? They won't win combat with anyone short of firewarriors or imperial guard.

v) Why not 3 Ravagers?

vi) What did you hope to achieve with 6 jetbikes? I can see 3 possible roles: assault, firepower, and grabbing.

For grabbing, 3 bikes usually do as well as 6.

For assault I find the jetbike mediocre. Admittedly they might hold up an IG formation for a while, but they kill achieve very little against any other army. Even with a sybarite w/ power weapon, I've found jetbikes tend to bounce off marines.

The basic jetbike splinter gun is feeble, so as fire support they are best run as tank hunters... again, best run in squads of seeking targets of opportunity.

-alex


Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




The world is quiet here.

Calm yourself. That's not my real list. That's Augustus's best guess at my list. I'll post the real list tonight. As for your questions...


i) Why Drachons? The extra A and W are worth the points. Similarly, why both on bikes? i use one, simply because i like the 'loon on bike' concept, but the ' IC Archon on foot' seems to be the favoured delivery system for tournament UK standard DE armies. 6+d6+12 charge range using punisher, animus and drugs to achieve S6.

Archons are an incredibly overrated point sink, and running any Dark Eldar on foot is a dicey proposition at best. I prefer my fighty characters to be able to get to the fighting, um, NOW. Not a chance in hell I'd ever take to the table with a character on foot in a DE army. As for the Archon....eh. Not a damn thing an Archon can do that a Dracon can't do except die and cost me more points. Everyone in my army is expendible...even the HQ. Can't play that way with an Archon, so he's out.

ii) Only 10 Wyches and all in 1 squad? Eggs in 1 basket? What will 10 Wyches kill that 6 Wyches won't kill? And why no agoniser on the Succubus? That's required for a tournament army surely?

Yes, only 10 Wyches, and yes, all in one squad. I don't run multiple units of Wyches unless I am playing all Wych cult. I also don't run less than max squad size, because if the Raider gets popped (like it did), I want enough wound buffer that they can still fight at decent strength if half the squad dies. Putting anything less than a full squad of anything in a Raider with the new double-tap-on-crash rule is suicidal. I never run an Agonizer on Wyches. Agonizers are for Raider squads only. Normally, I run her with a Punisher and Tormentor Helm, but thought it was a little overkill for IG.

iii) Why 14 man dark lance squads? You don't need surplas men here surely?

It wasn't 14. It was 10.

iv) Sybarites with power weapons and combat drugs??? What on earth on these going to do? They won't win combat with anyone short of firewarriors or imperial guard.

Sybarites had no combat drugs. Just a PW and a Splinter Pistol. Why? Minor concession to the fact I was playing IG. Normally, I'd just take Agonizers and Splinter Pistols. But against a T3 opponent, a normal PW is just as good as an Agonizer.

v) Why not 3 Ravagers?

Because that's not how I roll. I never max Heavy Support in any army I play, ever. Not the kind of game I want to play.

vi) What did you hope to achieve with 6 jetbikes? I can see 3 possible roles: assault, firepower, and grabbing.

My Jetbikes serve much, much more valuable roles than simply grabbing quarters. They are the fighting heart of my army. Under normal circumstances (i.e. when not facing down 14 volleys a turn of indirect fire), it is damn near impossible to stop three squadrons of Jetbikes from rampaging the enemy lines. I realize most people think the Reaver Jetbike is underpowered. The number of GT and RTT wins I've racked up says differently, at least to me. Keep in mind we're not talking about 6 Jetbikes. We're talking about 18 Jetbikes. Whole different story. By the way, if your Jetbikes are bouncing off Marines, you must have some seriously sad dice, or poor luck with Drug rolls. I can't remember the last time I lost to Space Marines. Now that I think about it harder, I don't think I've *ever* lost with DE to Space Marines. Space Marines are what DE are *designed* to kill...


"If someone brings 9 oblits and four pies to the table he is pretty much ruining my game. One way I could not let him ruin it would involve a large lump hammer rapidly and repeatly contacting his army/face/groin, but that would probably be frowned upon." - Jessica Dejong on TWF  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Thank you very much!

Taking notes during the game, taking photos, editing said notes and photos, and conferring with Xtapl via email on the mutual turn write ups turned out to be a lot of work. I'd do it all over again, but I have new found respect for the folks who must do WD. It is definitely a time consuming process. I suppose if it was my 40 hour a week job it might not be to bad. I hope many people here will enjoy it! Getting comments like yours certainly makes it worthwhile!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Xtapl wrote: Calm yourself. That's not my real list. That's Augustus's best guess at my list. I'll post the real list tonight.

...

Apologies to all, I didn't think that the list questionfest would start so abruptly! While it is fun to comment, please don't tear Xtapl up because I got his list wrong :S . I'll look to edit that post soon, after I get the right info from Xtapl.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Colorado

I've been watching this grudge battle grow with great interest over the last couple weeks. One because I'm in Colorado (wish I could have been there), two because I play DE, and three because I remember when Bill the Scot played his DE to multiple tourney wins in the Colorado area years ago.

Yes, that was in 3rd ed. But thing is, I don't think the switch to fourth affected the DE much. Their transports are just as fragile now as they were then. And many people have deployed their warriors at the start anyway. Webways full of wyches and the hq make escalation much easier as well.

xtapl - I agree with your assessment. I think the better test of DE competitiveness would be if you go to more area RTs. Your list would have a lot of fun in the marine heavy environment.

I speculate that if these two armies were in a RT, the DE would go 2-1, the IG 1-2. And honestly, that's only if they met each other by chance in the first round. Otherwise the DE would be in the winners bracket and the IG in the losers.

I'm only assessing the armies here. I know Damien is a really good player, and maybe he could make it work. But mortars versus marines would just be laughable.

While the wicked stand confounded
call me, with thy saints surrounded 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





i) Why Drachons? The extra A and W are worth the points. Similarly, why both on bikes? i use one, simply because i like the 'loon on bike' concept, but the ' IC Archon on foot' seems to be the favoured delivery system for tournament UK standard DE armies. 6+d6+12 charge range using punisher, animus and drugs to achieve S6.

Xtapl responds:Archons are an incredibly overrated point sink, and running any Dark Eldar on foot is a dicey proposition at best. I prefer my fighty characters to be able to get to the fighting, um, NOW. Not a chance in hell I'd ever take to the table with a character on foot in a DE army. As for the Archon....eh. Not a damn thing an Archon can do that a Dracon can't do except die and cost me more points. Everyone in my army is expendible...even the HQ. Can't play that way with an Archon, so he's out.


I have to side with Xtapl on this one. I think the twin HQ on jetbikes is a great idea. The extra wounds of a drachon wouldn't have made any difference vs instant death in our game anyway, but considering the larger picture... One has to understand something about the larger scale strategy he was going for! SPEED Kills, like the article he wrote, 2 Drakkon jetbikes allows for incredibly fast redeployment and lets his army do a power flank, something that was critical to his outlined tactics in the article in WD309. It also avoids the thrreat and vulnerability of Raider delivery, with the skimmers don't block los rules, and the screening rules entirely out of V4 delivery by raider of an HQ is nearly impossible. Ordinance will make it assured, but an HQ in a jetbike squad? Can't even be targeted by direct fire at all, and is surrounded by at least 6 4+ inv save wounds to ensure surviveability! I think this choice was masterfull. When they charged in our game I have to admit, had it been 2-3 las plas marine sqauds, they would have all died to the primary charge, only because it was 60 IG, not 15 marines did I have a chance at staying in HtH.

ii) Only 10 Wyches and all in 1 squad? Eggs in 1 basket? What will 10 Wyches kill that 6 Wyches won't kill? And why no agoniser on the Succubus? That's required for a tournament army surely?

Xtapl responds:Yes, only 10 Wyches, and yes, all in one squad. I don't run multiple units of Wyches unless I am playing all Wych cult. I also don't run less than max squad size, because if the Raider gets popped (like it did), I want enough wound buffer that they can still fight at decent strength if half the squad dies. Putting anything less than a full squad of anything in a Raider with the new double-tap-on-crash rule is suicidal. I never run an Agonizer on Wyches. Agonizers are for Raider squads only. Normally, I run her with a Punisher and Tormentor Helm, but thought it was a little overkill for IG.


Here I disagree with Xtapl. I think Raider delivery is totally dead in V4. Wytches are so vulnerable to death from it because they have no armor. I think its a mistake in the list, and I was able to exploit it in our game. I think taking bigger squad sizes to compensate for the risk is just throwing good money (army construction points) after bad. Perhaps an opponent army with no indirect fire would have a harder time, but hiding raiders isnt always that easy vs other mobile armies.

iii) Why 14 man dark lance squads? You don't need surplas men here surely?

Xtapl responds:It wasn't 14. It was 10.


Completely my fault on posting Xtapl's list wrong from memory, one can see in the pics that wasn't what he took.

v) Why not 3 Ravagers?

Xtapl responds:Because that's not how I roll. I never max Heavy Support in any army I play, ever. Not the kind of game I want to play.


It's the way I roll. I would probably play 3 too, what other heavy choice is there in the DE army anyway?

vi) What did you hope to achieve with 6 jetbikes? I can see 3 possible roles: assault, firepower, and grabbing.

Xtapl responds:My Jetbikes serve much, much more valuable roles than simply grabbing quarters. They are the fighting heart of my army. Under normal circumstances (i.e. when not facing down 14 volleys a turn of indirect fire), it is damn near impossible to stop three squadrons of Jetbikes from rampaging the enemy lines. I realize most people think the Reaver Jetbike is underpowered. The number of GT and RTT wins I've racked up says differently, at least to me. Keep in mind we're not talking about 6 Jetbikes. We're talking about 18 Jetbikes. Whole different story. By the way, if your Jetbikes are bouncing off Marines, you must have some seriously sad dice, or poor luck with Drug rolls. I can't remember the last time I lost to Space Marines. Now that I think about it harder, I don't think I've *ever* lost with DE to Space Marines. Space Marines are what DE are *designed* to kill...


18 jetbikes is frightening, they are immune to morale, can turbo boost 24", have an invulnerable save and can assault 18". Their effective sphere of influence covers the whole board! 3 leaders in the squads with drugs and power wepaons/agonisers and 2 HQs makes for so many easily deliverable power weapon hits that I can see why Xtapl has beaten marines. Its just that vs IG negating our 5+ save only means about 33% more casualties, which can generally be absorbed.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Brotherhood of Blood

I agree with Ebon. In a actual RT you just would not see mortars because of all the Marine armies you would draw.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Richland, WA

I think that this proves just how competitve DE are. They managed to do well (IMHO) against a list that negated most of the DE lists advantages. All this battle report proves is that (IMHO) is that some lists are good against some lists, but would be horrible against others.

I don't mean to take away from the fantastic Bat Rep or excellent build up. My hat is off to you two.

I still think the DE are a very competitive army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





...mortars versus marines would just be laughable.

Indeed.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy



Dirty Jersey

like the bat rep, wish there were more pictures but we can't get everything we want. Think the DE did great especially in the face of a list where it looked hopeless for them

Follow me on twitter @cerealk195

Add me on league: Cerealkiller195 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






Pasadena, CA

Posted By xtapl on 11/01/2005 11:22 AM
I can't remember the last time I lost to Space Marines. Now that I think about it harder, I don't think I've *ever* lost with DE to Space Marines. Space Marines are what DE are *designed* to kill...






It was at the DU Games' first RTT. You lost against Carl's Dark Angels by one die roll. I can understand why you don't remember it as most people try to forget their games against Carl.

   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

Overall, I'm not sure that either army really looks "typical" for the tournament scene.

I can see the value of the two Dracons on bikes. However, I've certainly seen the usual lone Archon on foot config used well also. I'm a little surprised about the lack of Wyches in the army. While Wyches aren't cheap, I'm always impressed with their performance and know I'd always have at least two units if I were fielding DE.

I'm not taking a single thing away from Xtapl, who has obviously had a lot of success. I'm just saying that his style is a little unique compared to what I've seen and played against.

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




The world is quiet here.

Oh, yeah, Adam. I think you're right. I think that is the last time I lost to Marines.

Hee...Carl. Love that guy. Hate his army.

"If someone brings 9 oblits and four pies to the table he is pretty much ruining my game. One way I could not let him ruin it would involve a large lump hammer rapidly and repeatly contacting his army/face/groin, but that would probably be frowned upon." - Jessica Dejong on TWF  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




The Warp

Xtapl: I know you don't like the WWP army, but could you tell me why?

Some questions and comments:

I personally love wyches and have 2 raiders-full of them! Best unit in the DE codex IMHO.

I don't like the bikes, but this is personal preference; I do, however, see their worth in numbers as in your list.

The Arhon has an extra wound (not too useful, because most stuff insta-kills T3 models), has a slightly higher WS? (going on memory, not home right now) and most of all can take more wargear to load up on.

I have an archon on foot that does fine either starting on the board or coming out of the WWP. She is a CC Demon! I am also going to playtest a Drachon w/ Incubi on Raider in my next game and see how well they do.

I can see the reason for no Talos' as they lack the speed for your tactics.

Nice game overcoming the early indications, too! You boys should do the best of 5!

Well, remember; The Sisters are off the table, and not actually in the Rhino. - Phausi

Did you just post that to make me crazy? - Yakface


 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




The world is quiet here.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't like it. I've just never been very successful with it.

What it boils down to is this: You play an army. You buy the models. You figure out the best way to use those models to their fullest. You develop habits, good and bad. Your strengths get really, really strong, and your weaknesses even out so that they're manageable.

Then, someone comes along and says, "Why don't you do this instead?" When you try it, you lose, badly. So you're like, "My way was better."

That's my basic feeling on the WWP. My way is better. Not because it's better, but because it's how I play. I don't play the WWP way, and every time I try, I get my teeth kicked in. I don't need to be kicked in the teeth more than a couple of times before I begin to connect "using WWP" with "kicked in the teeth."

"If someone brings 9 oblits and four pies to the table he is pretty much ruining my game. One way I could not let him ruin it would involve a large lump hammer rapidly and repeatly contacting his army/face/groin, but that would probably be frowned upon." - Jessica Dejong on TWF  
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





West Chester, PA

I thought both armies were sweet and especially liked Augustus' use of the Thudd gun. I have 3 in my Praetorian IG army and use them as autocannons. BTW where did you track so many down from?

Great report

I heart SYR 8766

For all your bravado, if the US Army decided to invade, Wisconsin is it?, in force supported by a heavy bombing campaign for the month before, weeks of shelling from battleships on Lake Superior, and a full tank thrust (crushing the cows beneath the treads), I don't think that your .22 is going to make much of a difference really... Asmodai (my new hero)


At some point these sorts of decision-making skills lump you into the same camp as the Lehman Brothers, the White Star Line shipping company, and mothers who smoke during pregnancy.
---Sour Clams 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




The Warp

No problem; I was just curious. Carry on "not getting kicked in the teeth."



Well, remember; The Sisters are off the table, and not actually in the Rhino. - Phausi

Did you just post that to make me crazy? - Yakface


 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





West Chester, PA

is that sarcasm I smell?

I heart SYR 8766

For all your bravado, if the US Army decided to invade, Wisconsin is it?, in force supported by a heavy bombing campaign for the month before, weeks of shelling from battleships on Lake Superior, and a full tank thrust (crushing the cows beneath the treads), I don't think that your .22 is going to make much of a difference really... Asmodai (my new hero)


At some point these sorts of decision-making skills lump you into the same camp as the Lehman Brothers, the White Star Line shipping company, and mothers who smoke during pregnancy.
---Sour Clams 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




The Warp

Not really.

Well, remember; The Sisters are off the table, and not actually in the Rhino. - Phausi

Did you just post that to make me crazy? - Yakface


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




First I would like to thank both Xtapl and Augustus for playing this Grudge Match and collecting the BATREP data. It is an excellent BATREP and the pictures really help with the details. It is obvious that this took some time and dedication to the game itself to provide this report to those of us that could not be there.

The original question: Are DE a competitive army in 4th edition?

Did we answer that? I am not sure that we all agree, but I am hoping that this post will help to answer that question. I play DE, so I know how I am voting, but does the data support my vote?

There has been a lot of discussion both before the server crash and now concerning the ?tournament? list Augustus brought. I have never played against IG so I cannot really comment on it.

Augustus, are you still claiming that your list was in fact a tournament list?

Yes I know that you offered to change your list, but that does not hold a lot of weight with me. It is the old ?Better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission.? If Xtapl had asked you to replace the mortars, then he looks like a jerk.

Augustus quote:

The mortar platoon was over 300 points all told and I had lost most of it at games end. Perhaps the presence attack was enough though? I was admittedly thrilled when the Ogryns insta killed both Drakkons, something I was hoping I might t get to try! In my evaluation, rocket launchers, mortars, and Ogryns are pretty poor army choices overall though. In addition to theme, and to try and make the pictures I wanted to post later cooler, I had also decided to take them anyway because I believed they would be a handicap. Hopefully making the 2 armies a bit closer.

You make some fine points here for my argument. You ?handicapped? your list for the sake of theme and pictures, but this was not supposed to be photo op or you getting to try out units you normally don?t use just because you have the models. The point was to find out if DE are a competitive army in 4th edition, at least that was my impression. You didn?t actually handicap your army. Yes mortars and Ogryns (from what I have read) are poor army choices against almost 95% of the 40k universe, but against one of the few armies out there that is T3, not fearless, does not get to re-roll Morale or Ld checks, and uses open topped vehicles, it is an advantage.

Xtapl played the game like a man and lost a close mission to an army designed to attack DE weaknesses. The fact that Xtapl was not wiped out by this army would indicate to me that DE are a competitive army in 4th edition. Ausgustus? claim that the ?handicapped? portion of his army didn?t do much to affect the outcome is a little short sighted. The Ogryns ability to insta-kill Xtapl?s HQs made them worth their points alone. The mortars may or may not have earned their points, but it is not always about points. If Xtapl was pushed out of his ?game? by the presence of the mortars, then you have to factor that into account also. That fact that they were on his mind and that by turn 2 he wished he had had Augustus change them out would seem to indicate to me that they earned their points.

Augustus, I think that since you used to play DE, but you kept getting ?kicked in the teeth" , you shelved them. For you to admit that DE are competitive you would first have to admit that you could never figure out how to play them, and I just don?t think you can handle that thought. You are a great veteran player Ausgustus, but stick to things you understand and stop giving opinions about how Xtapl could have brought a better list. You couldn?t handle playing a DE army before, so stop giving advice to a DE veteran about unit selections.


Conclusion: DE are a competitive army in 4th edition

NeverMore


   
Made in us
Sergeant First Class






Mortars and rough riders and ogryns in a IG tournament army? SURE!

Here are mine:

http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/Grandtournament05/DennisC/GT05_DennisC.htm


Now whether or not they are worth it, sometimes they pull it out. My Mortar team in the bottom of the 6th cleanse charged the last guy remaining from a blood angel squad, killed him, rolled a 6 for the sweep roll, to then be the lone squad above half in his table quarter, minor victory for me, despite mephiston and lemartes and such raping the rest of my guys.

I find even against marines, one team of mortars is still useful for pinning, i nailed a devastator squad twice in one game once, he failed his tests, but ive since taken out the ogryns. They are useless in almost all situations.

Good bat rep boys.. Ive got a raider heavy DE army all on sprue waiting their turn at the painting desk, itll be fun trying out the tactics....

   
Made in fi
Been Around the Block




That's an awesome Squat army, Matt! How did you rep models such as bikes and exo-armour?
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Battle Reports
Go to: