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Vilehydra wrote:
Did the venerable dreadnought get a price drop in CA or did I just imagine it?

Yeah it did. 3 with all range weapons are a good weapons platform assuming you go Ultramarines to avoid the issue of being charged and not being able to do a thing about it.

Space marine just won the heat 4 with this list.
What do you think about it?

Adeptus Astartes
1749pts
11CP


Battalion Detachment +5CP,(Blood Angels)

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

5 Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 5 Combat knife and Pistol

5 Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 5 Combat knife and Pistol

5 Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 5 Combat knife and Pistol


Spearhead Detachment +1CP,Indomitus Crusader specialist Detachment -1CP,(Ultramarines)

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm

10 Intercessor Squad [10PL, 174pts]: 2 auxillary grenade launcher, power sword

10 Intercessor Squad [10PL, 174pts]: 2 auxillary grenade launcher, power sword

Primaris Ancient [5PL, 69pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Predator [9 PL, 158pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Storm bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

Predator [9 PL, 158pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Storm bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

Predator [9 PL, 158pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Storm bolter, Two Heavy Bolters


Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment,(Ultramarines)

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts]: Warlord

Blood angel smash captains and girlyman... yawn.... what else is new?

You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.

What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.

Azuza001 wrote:
What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.

Assassins are good but you really want to look at at what they can add to SMs that they cannot do already.

Eversor is actually my lowest choice for SMs since his main use is chaff clearing which we have in spades. Plus he doesn't get any special deployment and we are not a rush YOLO army in general.

Culexus adds much needed psychic protection and since most DM armies are some format of gunline won't mind the lack of special deployment. He would be my choice with GSC popular and eldar always good in most local metas.

Vindicare is very good but you can weigh your own scout snipers plus the shiny new primaris eliminators coming out in comparison.

Callidus is a medium choice in my mind as she is useful for the CP disruption but as above will almost certainly be alone since we are not an in your face army.

Looking at the evesor though for chaff clearing for 85 pts it seems crazy though. 8 attacks, plus an additional attack for every model it kills, plus attack again for 2cp and when it dies it does mortal wounds... even as a threat deterrent (you don't really want to charge me when i have him sitting there do you) it seems really good. Add in the if culexus is better because your facing a psycic army or vindicare if the army runs multiple low lvl chrs (free cp potentially for every chr sniped? Yes please) and i think they all could see use going forward. Hell, even the cp disruption of the callidus could be useful if you see your opponent only has 8 cp.

 buddha wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.

Assassins are good but you really want to look at at what they can add to SMs that they cannot do already.

Eversor is actually my lowest choice for SMs since his main use is chaff clearing which we have in spades. Plus he doesn't get any special deployment and we are not a rush YOLO army in general.

Culexus adds much needed psychic protection and since most DM armies are some format of gunline won't mind the lack of special deployment. He would be my choice with GSC popular and eldar always good in most local metas.

Vindicare is very good but you can weigh your own scout snipers plus the shiny new primaris eliminators coming out in comparison.

Callidus is a medium choice in my mind as she is useful for the CP disruption but as above will almost certainly be alone since we are not an in your face army.

While we aren't a rushing YOLO army like you said, the nice thing about the Eversor is that, since we run Scouts anyway, that's potentially another 5 wounds an opponent would have to deal with before going after the Eversor. If not a chaff clearer, they'll be able to charge things and force a unit to fall back.

GW did a good job ensuring every Imperial player will buy a full set and everyone else will scream OP soup. The Eversor does seem hard to resist, though I do think the Vindicare has some potential if your list is already running sniper Scouts. The ability to average 5-6 wounds/turn on any char in LoS is pretty threatening. Heck, at only 85pts his d3 mortals to vehicles still comes out cheaper than a Deb squad AT without a cherub. And of course the other 2 have their great situational uses.

bort wrote:
GW did a good job ensuring every Imperial player will buy a full set and everyone else will scream OP soup. The Eversor does seem hard to resist, though I do think the Vindicare has some potential if your list is already running sniper Scouts. The ability to average 5-6 wounds/turn on any char in LoS is pretty threatening. Heck, at only 85pts his d3 mortals to vehicles still comes out cheaper than a Deb squad AT without a cherub. And of course the other 2 have their great situational uses.

Well not cheaper exactly. Devastators with a Cherub and Heavy Bolter is 80 points.

That said, Vindicares don't need any babysitting and have literally double the range. I don't want to say they've removed Devastators completely, but it's hard to make a big case in their favor too.

Can pre-game strategems be affected by AoV? You can only do the Assassin requisition once per game, so a Vect or generations of planning may be an easy way to counter it, and cost you 85 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.

I like this comment because it doesn't really care that the list won Heat 4 - it just tries to make wild claims of what is necessary for success, fully ignoring that it was already successful.

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.

I like this comment because it doesn't really care that the list won Heat 4 - it just tries to make wild claims of what is necessary for success, fully ignoring that it was already successful.

If someone posts a list, it is important to deconstruct it rather than just blindly saying "okay cool".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise what's the point of a forum besides echo chamber for yourself?

Vilehydra wrote:
Can pre-game strategems be affected by AoV? You can only do the Assassin requisition once per game, so a Vect or generations of planning may be an easy way to counter it, and cost you 85 points.

No it can not be affected.

Enron, congratulations on your victories and your overall performance with a renowned "underdog" army.

Would you like to share your complete list with us? What else did you field except from the preds, repulsors and scouts?

I had a game tonight using a 1750 point version of Enron's list. I was actually building something a bit similar, intended to be an all-infantry Crimson Fist army. I thought I'd try using my two repulsors and three ancient battered predators (that I've owned since 3rd or 4th edition!) to see how they worked.

I have to say it worked pretty well!

Mission was cut off the head - first time either of us had tried it. Spearhead deployment, so at least there wasn't far to walk! Downside was I had only two characters...

I had a battalion with a primaris captain (fist of vengeance), lieutentant with relic of gathalmor, and 29 intercessors (20 of them veterans), 3 predators and two repulsors (twin las and HOG).

Opponent had a Ynnari battalion of Yvraine, Eldrad, 20 guardians and 2x5 avengers, plus 10 reapers and 9 scatter bikes (in one unit, can't remember which detachment) plus an alaitoc battalion of spiritseer, warlock, 3x5 rangers, 10 wraithblades and a wave serpent.

I started out playing uncharacteristically cagily. I didn't want to run into the middle and get minced by the wraithblades, so instead I had a 10-man squad stand still and use the rapid fire straagem. They shot dead 17 guardsment including their weapons platform. It was pretty awesome to have bolter marines actually kill something! I also killed a few rangers here and there. Repulsors advanced with 5 guys in each. I cursed myself for not deploying the characters in a repulsor. Predators dropped a couple of the wraithblades.

The remaining eldar came forward. Reapers killed a predator - nearly in the psychic phase and then finished it off and killed a couple of intercessors in shooting. We both got first strike.

Turn 2 I shot at the wraithblades a lot to no great effect, but managed to shoot dead 7 of the reapers (who couldn't hide from my repulsors). I charged the wraithblades with a repulsor, losing 4 wounds but forcing my opponent to use up his last 2 CPs to let them fall back and charge. I took out the unit of 9 scatter bikes through a combination of dakka from a repulsor (those guns that couldn't reach the reapers), from the 5 intercessors who'd been inside it, and their punching them in melee. 3 guys survived but they fled in the morale phase.

He then ran forward and the wraithblades charged in, killing my lieutenant. My captain heroically intervened and killed 4 of them, leaving only 2. He got onto the objective as well with his consolidate, so at the start of my turn 3 I actually got a VP! Or we thought I did... actually in retrospect I think he had 2 characters there so I shouldn't have scored.

We called it there. I'd actually taken the teeth out of his army now the wraithblades, bikes and reapers were gone. He was about to lose probably all three of his characters with intel, so he would struggle to get any points. Meanwhile I'd only lost a predator, my lieutenant and 8 or 9 intercessors.

Things would have been tougher if I hadn't gone first. My opponent was trying a shining-spear-less Ynnari list for the first time (the 9 scatter bikes were actually proxied spears) and it really didn't work. But the combination of the predators and repulsors was really great. It's a lot of targets for anyone to try and take down. If you leave repulsors alone (say if you're worried about killshot predators) then they will eventually kill everything on the board.

I liked the veteran intercessors. I was pretty happy with the squad that I combat squadded between the repulsors. I think a 17 point intercessor is now a pretty respectable model, with the beta bolter rules and option to get a third attack. Things like dire agengers, rangers and guardians were not happy to face these guys.

Enron, congratulations on your victories and your overall performance with a renowned "underdog" army.

Would you like to share your complete list with us? What else did you field except from the preds, repulsors and scouts?

Thank you for the kind words buddy. Here is my list from LVO:


Battalion Detachment 5CP (Space Marine) [91PL, 1421pts]

Chapter Tactic: Mixed

-HQ-

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Chainsword, Boltgun, Servo-Arm, Frag and Krak Grenades, Ultramarine
Sergeant Chronus [2 PL, 30pts]: Bolt pistol, Servo-Arm, Frag and Krak Grenades, Ultramarine

-Troops-

Intercessor [10 PL, 153pts] x9, x9 Bolt Rifle, x1 Chainsword, x9 Frag and Krak Grenades, x8 Bolt Pistol, Ultramarine
Scouts [10 PL, 88pts] x8, x8 Boltgun, x7 Bolt Pistol, x1 Chainsword, x8 Frag and Krak Grenade, Black Templar
Scouts [6 PL, 73pts] x5, x4 Sniper Rifle, x1 Chainsword, x1 Heavy Bolter, x4 Bolt Pistol, x5 Frag and Krak Grenade, Ultramarine

-Heavy Support-

Predator [9 PL, 156pts] Predator Autocannon, x2 Heavy Bolter, x1 Hunter Killer Missile, Ultramarine
Predator [9 PL, 156pts] Predator Autocannon, x2 Heavy Bolter, x1 Hunter Killer Missile, Ultramarine
Predator [9 PL, 150pts] Predator Autocannon, x2 Heavy Bolter, Ultramarine

-Dedicated Transport-

Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts] x2 Ironhail Heavy Stubber, x2 Storm Bolter, x1 Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, x1 Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, x1 Twin Lascannon, Auto Launcher, Ultramarine
Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts] x2 Ironhail Heavy Stubber, x2 Storm Bolter, x1 Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, x1 Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, x1 Twin Lascannon, Auto Launcher, Ultramarine


Patrol Detachment 0CP (Blood Angels) [10 PL, 179pts]

Chapter Tactic: Blood Angels

-HQ-

Captain [6 PL, 124pts] Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Blood Angel

-Troops-

Scouts [6 PL, 55pts] x5, x5 Boltgun, x1 Chainsword, x4 Bolt Pistol, x5 Frag and Krak Grenade, Blood Angel

Super-Heavy Auxillary Detachment 0CP (Ultramarine) [18 PL, 400pts]

-Lord of War-

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts]


Game order I went first/second
Game 1: Went first
Game 2: Went second
Game 3: Went first
Game 4: Went first
Game 5 Went second
Game 6: Went first

All games I had a lower drop count then my opponent. As other have noted: You want the choice to go first or second. Keep your drops to under 12 to ensure you have the advantage in the roll off.

Games 1, 2 and 6 were games I needed to go first against my opponent
Games 3, 4 and 5 I could have gone first or second and the result of the game probably would have been the same

There are some things in the list I would change as I dont believe I was running it as efficiently as I could.

->My initial thoughts on taking the larger BT unit of scouts was so that I would have extra bodies to deny so my opponents couldn't easily smite me off. Hindsight is 5 would have probably worked just as well.

->I took sniper rifles on one of the scout units. This is more of a utility unit that should be effective as long as no one shoots at them. Usually they died within the first couple of turns. I probably would drop all the snipers and just keep the HB in the unit and make them BT.

->I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.

->Veteran Interessors ARE A MUST TAKE. In my early playtest games one issue that was glaringly apparent was getting preds wrapped in CC. Once you get wrapped you are screwed if you dont have a unit that can do a ton of attacks to clear them off your tanks. The Interessors do this in spades as you are rocking 29 attacks (Full reroll with Gman). Popping the liberator strat to get extra attacks on 6's and you should get about 35-38 attacks with this unit. On top of that you can also attack again if you needed to! The CC is great but then you also can shoot up to 36 times with a st. 4 -1ap gun at something else before you charge in. All for a reasonable 156pts.

->Techmarine is my hidden gem in the list. This guy is so under-valued in any marine list that runs armor. As discussed before over the course of the game he on average heals 12 wounds to your tanks which is equivalent of an extra 150 or so points. He keeps your vehicles firing and moving as you pummel your opponents army. Your tanks stay stronger longer! I typically go with a bolter and chainsword as I find I am running most of the time to keep up with my vehicles. I went with the primarchs wrath bother as up to 4 st. 5 2D shots is never bad

->Chronus is my last choice. Honestly he is the cheapest HQ we can get which is why I took him. This list relies on tanks to get the job done. He gives his pred a 2+ to hit and heals 1 wound per turn. He also importantly saves you a drop as he starts in the vehicle. If and when his vehicle blows up he is a character that can now stand on an objective and still get you points!

Thanks for the very comnprehensive rundown of your list and your ideas for optimizing it further. Much appreciated!

Interesting point on drops. My list is designed for the new GW format where drop count is no-longer a factor. Actually I still don't have all that many. If you're running a couple of repulsors then Primaris characters can go inside anyway.

I'm a big fan of my Primaris captain with the fist of vengeance. He's not slamguinius but he is much cheaper in points and CPs. He stops things like gallants from bullying me too, because I have a very serious counter-punch.

You have a player in your area scared of that? Wish I were that lucky.

Enron wrote:




->Chronus is my last choice. Honestly he is the cheapest HQ we can get which is why I took him. This list relies on tanks to get the job done. He gives his pred a 2+ to hit and heals 1 wound per turn. He also importantly saves you a drop as he starts in the vehicle. If and when his vehicle blows up he is a character that can now stand on an objective and still get you points!

Did you bring him just because it is cheap? I find him really useful in any game I play with him!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have a player in your area scared of that? Wish I were that lucky.

If you’re talking about the Primaris Captain then yes, people at my club are learning to fear him. It’s because he’s a monster. He’ll typically kill more than his (87!) points in a single round of combat. He kills knights, Custodians, Shining spears, daemon princes and more knights. His best effort was probably dropping two winged hive tyrants in a single round of combat (with help from a librarian casting null zone and 3CPs). Winged hive tyrants are gone from the competitive scene now, but this guy is still plugging away.

Luckily I mostly play at tournaments where people haven’t usually come up against him. Mostly he just stands around handing out rerolls in what’s basically a gunline army. Sooner or later something will come along to try and beat up my guys in combat, and then this guy steps up. Good times.

Of course it’s not like he’s the main feature of my list. He costs 87 points! I bring other stuff as well.

It’s not an army that wins tournaments but it consistently does ok and is fun to play. I don’t invest much time in the tournament scene as I used to (I was best general at the UKGT a couple of times) but I still like to go along. So far I’ve had a very consistent 3:2 win/loss ratio with the army. Ynnari are still a problem, though I do sometimes beat them. Pretty much my whole army list got cheaper and/or better since the last event I went to though, which is nice. It’ll be interesting to see how I get on at this year’s finals.

Something I’ve just realised is that I should stick as many storm bolters on my vehicles as humanly possible, and especially on predators that might be using killshot. The beta bolter rules mean you’re getting 4 extra shots basically all the time for 2 points.

I'm shocked Custodes aren't making mincemeat of him. You kill 1.5 on average with the Captain, and the last two (at minimum) swing back with 3 wounds. That's assuming the Captain charged rather than the 3 Custodes (once again at minimum), in which case that's 5 wounds. That's also not counting the Spear wounding bonus Strategem.

I just don't see the issue.

Well yeah he dies all the time, of course he does. That’s fine - he’s cheap and he fights again if he dies. And to be honest Custodians on foot aren’t usually the problem – they are unlikely to get to me in the first place. He does have to fight jetbike Custodians quite a lot, but usually only after I’ve shot quite a lot of them dead, and never alone. I wouldn't just charge him on his own at a squad of 5 custodian guard. He'd wander off with the rest of my guys and keep telling them to reroll those 1s.

So for example in my game on Monday he heroically intervened and killed four wraithblades in a single round. That’s pretty normal. So instead of having 6 wraithblades locked in combat with my troops near the central objective I had two – and he’d have killed them in my turn if we hadn’t stopped it there.

The advantage he has is that the enemy comes to him. He doesn’t have to work to get across the board because he’s stood by my shooty units giving them rerolls to hit, and that’s where the enemy wants to go. The challenge is to keep him safe from being shot or charged by something nasty so that he can either counter-charge or, ideally, hit the enemy before they hit him. I find it works really well to use repulsors to charge first, soak overwatch and lock most enemies. Then I have the captain charge the side of a unit where not much can hit him back.

I’m not saying this guy is some kind of iwin button. He’s just a good use of 87 points. I am happy with the little bonus from the Crimson fist CTs though. He can now fire his plasma pistol overcharged, because almost everyone outnumbers him at least 2:1!

I am also shocked. In that your Space Marine Primaris Captain kills Daemon Prince as if it was grots. In my experience, the Daemon Prince always smashed my Smash Captains as if they were nothing more than insects. By math my Captain on bike / jumppack with TH/SS can only do 6 damages on that TSon DP even with the 3CP fight again. The DP fights back usually deal 5-6 wounds, results in 2 failed saves and 4 dmg taken. Next round the DP goes first and the Captain is dead while the DP lived with 2 wounds.

One side question: how does your Captain with PF/PP cost 87 points? My CA18 says 92 (78+9+5).

 Crimson_ wrote:
One side question: how does your Captain with PF/PP cost 87 points? My CA18 says 92 (78+9+5).

Huh, yes he does. And that's what's written on my army list, so at least I haven't been cheating! Seems I can't read though...

Sorry if it's coming across like I think this guy is the best unit in 40k or something. He's just a good HQ who buffs my shooting and then threatens things in cc, without costing much. He obviously isn't Guilliman, but he costs less than a quarter of Guilliman's points and fills an HQ slot.

He doesn't solo the world on his own, but that's ok because I bring quite a large army along with him. He tends to get to pick what he charges (and doesnt usually pick an undamaged daemon prince of Tzeench if he can possibly avoid it!) because the enemy is coming towards him anyway.

Mandragola wrote:

 Crimson_ wrote:
One side question: how does your Captain with PF/PP cost 87 points? My CA18 says 92 (78+9+5).

Huh, yes he does. And that's what's written on my army list, so at least I haven't been cheating! Seems I can't read though...

Sorry if it's coming across like I think this guy is the best unit in 40k or something. He's just a good HQ who buffs my shooting and then threatens things in cc, without costing much. He obviously isn't Guilliman, but he costs less than a quarter of Guilliman's points and fills an HQ slot.

He doesn't solo the world on his own, but that's ok because I bring quite a large army along with him. He tends to get to pick what he charges (and doesnt usually pick an undamaged daemon prince of Tzeench if he can possibly avoid it!) because the enemy is coming towards him anyway.

I'd say the same, eventhough i run him as Ultramarine with the Sanctic Halo. He packs quite a good punch and with a 3+ invul very resilient. Some opponents underestimate this (and the accompaning Lieutenant) when charging the backline units.

I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.

First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.

My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?

 FinkleLord wrote:

I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.

First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.

My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?

Ancients are the only thing worth running if you have any models to benefit. Otherwise, Aggressors are never a bad pick.