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Ok, not to start a flame war, but at my LGS we were having a discussion about the most "broken" casters, and with emphasis on feats.
Basically it was decided that eHaley had one of the (if not THE) most broken feat. But I played her with eGaspy, and well, after a healthy application of reanimated bane knights, she was no more.
So basically, thought I'd ask you guys for your top 10 broken/powerful feats, in order if at all possible, and to invite any discussion on the topic.
Asphyixous2: Bring back 10 hard killers? That ignore free strikes? That have to charge? Scary gak.
Deneghra1: -2 to everything apart from fury. Just look at the stacking debuff thread to see how bad it can get.
Haley2: I've only played against her once but on feat turn it was, 'So what now? this unit does nothing. Now? this warjack does nothing.' etc.
Siege: The one Cygnarian warcaster I fear. Half armour just means my stuff is going down.
Sorsha2: Double the damage. Again, it's gonna hurt.
Gorten: My stuff is going somewhere and I have no idea where.
Harbinger: I can't get to you without taking damage. My turn is buggered.
Rahn: Magic is fully boosted. My defence means nothing, my armour means nothing.
Ravyn: Boosted range coupled with the strike force. My warcaster has to stay far back from the action.
Saeryn: I can't hit anything in the battlegroup with melee. Melee is the best way to kill things and now I can't.
Lylyth2: I'm gonna get shot and even stealth won't help.
Not at order but....
eHaley eGaspy eCaine?
Terminus maybe? since after feat he will disgorge many many attacks on you
pGoreshade in small point games like 15 points MM I will suppose the rest is basically Hordes feat? which I don't really know about
edit:
There is also pKreoss.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/17 15:19:28
For scenario play, eDenny is mean. No you cannot move, no you cannot shake it off. Saeryn's feat is watered down compared to eSkarre. You cannot target me at all, and you cannot make any attacks with models I choose.
Epic Asphyxious was the subject of an errata a few months ago. His feat no longer grants incorporeal but now only grants ghostly instead. The resurrected models still can't be killed, but now at least need a clear charge lane.
I think they made the effort to nerf him because as strong as eHaley and eDenegrah's "you can't play this turn" feats are, they cannot win the game by themselves, you still have to not get wiped out early and still have to capitalize on the situation.
It's usually the feats that have control elements or extra damage that people complain about. Take a look at the lists above for instance, only Ravyn and eLylith don't add damage or have an impact on how the opponent's next turn operates.
As the guy that usually plays eHaley the feat that annoys me most is pSev, I like my focus.
I don't know that any feat is really more or less broken than another. Some will hose certain casters or are better against the other system (Bloody Barnabas vs Warmachine is nasty)
Sparks wrote:I don't know that any feat is really more or less broken than another. Some will hose certain casters or are better against the other system (Bloody Barnabas vs Warmachine is nasty)
I don't disagree with this. But some feats do influence my playing more than others. pMourgoul or Garryth both say to warmachine you can't use your focus but I find it hard to plan for the turn that they use it. The one's I fear are the ones that affect my turn. I have to be going, if they feat what can I use to lower its effectiveness and thus move my pieces accordingly.
I think it's undeniable that some feats are stronger than others, however I think the game is pretty balanced because the casters that have such nasty feats have less points and also generally don't have awesome stats.
Another point is that some feats work better in smaller games and some in bigger, or against different types of enemies. I find with my troll casters, only Grissel's feat really shapes the game. Grim's is excellent damage limitation and a nice little boost in combat, but I don't see my game as structured around the feat turn. Borka's is fun and all, but really Mosh Pit is much more powerful. Doomies is too difficult to use to build a game around it but it can be a total game changer if you're lucky.
There are a lot of really good feats and I think there are 2 types that are flipping ridiculous that everyone hates. 1. The "Lose a turn" and 2. If you move within like 1/2 the board from my caster you are probably losing next turn. I would say all of these have that in common except eKreoss and eGaspy(no longer incorporeal).
1. eHaley - losing a turn is just insane. That's it man, game over man, game over!
2. eDenny - once again losing a turn(but less bad then eHaley)
3. Gorten - as a feat goes its quite ridiculous
4. eCaine - its like not fun to play against him at all due to the distance limitation for your caster
5. eKreoss - I'm mat 0...you're defense 99, No-prob cause its auto-hitting!!!!!
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
7. Rahn - his spell list with all the mages in his faction that make his feat ridiculous
8. pDenny - its almost like a loss of a turn, but not as bad
8. eGaspy - its pretty bad, but without incorporeal its not nearly as bad.
9. Zerkova - there are ways around it, but its still really good...not that she has much else going for her.
10. Harbinger - PS 14 AND her control radius is 20 inches...
I'm fond of eBastards Feat. You know those fifteen tough Banes you managed to kill earlier? Yeah, they're back... Oh, and now they're behind you as well.
Sure it's not a game winner like eLichs Feat, but it's pretty darn useful in attrition.
SilverSaint wrote:1. eHaley - losing a turn is just insane. That's it man, game over man, game over!
You're quite hosed if your army is melee-centric. This has taught me the
value of combined arms and versatility. An eHaley player never asks if you
have any swords in your army. They're always concerned about the guns
and AOEs.
2. eDenny - once again losing a turn(but less bad then eHaley)
I've never actually played against her, but the teleport trick is hilarious, especially
when applied to a model like Karchev (in the fluff, too!)
3. Gorten - as a feat goes its quite ridiculous
He's limited by his SPD and 10" CTRL.
4. eCaine - its like not fun to play against him at all due to the distance limitation for your caster
His ARM is light as hell. AOEs scare the crap out of him and the extreme threat
range can be blocked by models on your caster. Without Gatecrasher, he "just"
has to shoot you. (Still hurts, but from less far away).
5. eKreoss - I'm mat 0...you're defense 99, No-prob cause its auto-hitting!!!!!
He's DEF 14. The answer, this time, is heavy guns. If he's running the theme
force, then the only thing with Pathfinder will be the Errants and maybe the Vengers,
so terrain slows him down. His theme force is fast, though. 2" extra deployment,
advance move on the knights exemplar with AD on the errants and cavalry? Ooh.
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
This one I can't remember. He only gets the special shot once. Why is it
auto-hit?
7. Rahn - his spell list with all the mages in his faction that make his feat ridiculous
The mages aren't that tough, and Ret still can't deal with stealth. It's not Rahn's
mages you should fear, but the combination of heavy arc nodes, telekinesis and
his 'jacks.
8. pDenny - its almost like a loss of a turn, but not as bad
She's not called dirty d for nothing! I wonder if it would work to spearhead your
army into hers, so that a feat turn would only affect a few units at a time. However,
that gives her bone chickens free reign to out-flank you. Hm.
Still, she hates AOEs as much as the Caines.
9. eGaspy - its pretty bad, but without incorporeal its not nearly as bad.
Here I'm going to say that he can still play keep away and still destroy tons of
your army on his feat turn. He's also still going to kill his own Tartarus if you don't
first.
The only way to really get at him is if you can ignore cloud effects. Otherwise,
you're going to have to eat that spectral charge.
10. Zerkova - there are ways around it, but its still really good...not that she has much else going for her.
I can't remember.
11. Harbinger - PS 14 AND her control radius is 20 inches...
If need be, I'd still move my 'caster closer and eat the damage. It's not like she
can boost it. Your other options are to move away, shoot, or, you know, have
lots of models that don't care about POW 14 (8 wound units, heavy warbeasts
and warjacks, even undamaged lights aren't all that concerned unless you're
relying on the arc node to survive).
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
This one I can't remember. He only gets the special shot once. Why is it
auto-hit?
I don't know either, I play Siege. Sure his feat is annoying, but its only on the first hit. And you still have to roll to hit with Ground Pounder (it doesn't scatter, but it can miss). The attack is not armor piercing (the feat is worded differently). Besides if Siege is shooting your caster on feat turn he should just shoot you with a normal missile for PS 14 if at all possible.
"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sence, we couldn't react to a lot of life." - Calvin and Hobbes
DukeRustfield - There's nothing wrong with beer and pretzels. I'm pretty sure they are the most important members of the food group.
Zerkova's feat is something like enemy models currently(?) in her control area lose their initial ranged attacks, can't give or receive orders, charge, run, and make special attacks or special actions.
Most infantry are left with advancing and attacking in melee as the only things they can do that turn. Casters and locks can still cast spells and feat. I think warbeasts can still use their animi. Jacks, casters, locks, and beasts can all buy their initial ranged attacks back by using focus/fury.
I've used Zerkova a lot in the past, and I think I used her feat about 50% of the time. It's tricky to use because even if you play her far enough forward to catch a lot of enemy models with her feat, anything with SPD 6 and Reach can probably still advance and attack your front line in melee.
So yeah. In my experience, Zerkova's feat is nowhere near as effective as it looks on paper. It definitely does not belong on this top 10 list.
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
This one I can't remember. He only gets the special shot once. Why is it
auto-hit?
I don't know either, I play Siege. Sure his feat is annoying, but its only on the first hit. And you still have to roll to hit with Ground Pounder (it doesn't scatter, but it can miss). The attack is not armor piercing (the feat is worded differently). Besides if Siege is shooting your caster on feat turn he should just shoot you with a normal missile for PS 14 if at all possible.
Dunno where the auto-hit comes from. The OP probably doesn't understand how Ground Pounder works. Usually seige feats, then boosts a pow 14 rocket to the head of the caster who now has half armor. High defense can still make this shot miss as he is only MAT 6. But he will usually follow it up with a second boosted shot and oftentimes a Defender will be around for yet a third shot if the first two miss. The good news (for the Seige player) is that he really only needs one of those to hit with his feat. I have one- shotted many a caster with a single rocket of defender shot under his feat.
The nice thing about Seige's feat, though, is you can also use it for attrition. Feat, then ground pound a unit of heavily armored troops and they will probably all die since they tend to have low DEF. And the feat even makes gunmages scary against even heavy targets. And a squire gives him a 14" control area which can catch alot of baddies.
Oh no doubt, Siege's feat is nice. It's just not a sure thing feat.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
This one I can't remember. He only gets the special shot once. Why is it
auto-hit?
I don't know either, I play Siege. Sure his feat is annoying, but its only on the first hit. And you still have to roll to hit with Ground Pounder (it doesn't scatter, but it can miss). The attack is not armor piercing (the feat is worded differently). Besides if Siege is shooting your caster on feat turn he should just shoot you with a normal missile for PS 14 if at all possible.
Dunno where the auto-hit comes from. The OP probably doesn't understand how Ground Pounder works. Usually seige feats, then boosts a pow 14 rocket to the head of the caster who now has half armor. High defense can still make this shot miss as he is only MAT 6. But he will usually follow it up with a second boosted shot and oftentimes a Defender will be around for yet a third shot if the first two miss. The good news (for the Seige player) is that he really only needs one of those to hit with his feat. I have one- shotted many a caster with a single rocket of defender shot under his feat.
The nice thing about Seige's feat, though, is you can also use it for attrition. Feat, then ground pound a unit of heavily armored troops and they will probably all die since they tend to have low DEF. And the feat even makes gunmages scary against even heavy targets. And a squire gives him a 14" control area which can catch alot of baddies.
Oops I mis-wrote that, i was more referring to the "auto-hit" that in my mind he will get the shot off on your caster no matter what as he just places it, not that he literally auto-hits(though its boosted to hit and always hits me even at Def 18 ><. My fault for not realizing my mental mistake.
Spoiler:
[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:
malfred wrote:
SilverSaint wrote:
1. eHaley - losing a turn is just insane. That's it man, game over man, game over!
You're quite hosed if your army is melee-centric. This has taught me the
value of combined arms and versatility. An eHaley player never asks if you
have any swords in your army. They're always concerned about the guns
and AOEs.
2. eDenny - once again losing a turn(but less bad then eHaley)
I've never actually played against her, but the teleport trick is hilarious, especially
when applied to a model like Karchev (in the fluff, too!)
3. Gorten - as a feat goes its quite ridiculous
He's limited by his SPD and 10" CTRL.
4. eCaine - its like not fun to play against him at all due to the distance limitation for your caster
His ARM is light as hell. AOEs scare the crap out of him and the extreme threat
range can be blocked by models on your caster. Without Gatecrasher, he "just"
has to shoot you. (Still hurts, but from less far away).
5. eKreoss - I'm mat 0...you're defense 99, No-prob cause its auto-hitting!!!!!
He's DEF 14. The answer, this time, is heavy guns. If he's running the theme
force, then the only thing with Pathfinder will be the Errants and maybe the Vengers,
so terrain slows him down. His theme force is fast, though. 2" extra deployment,
advance move on the knights exemplar with AD on the errants and cavalry? Ooh.
6. Siege - its just annoying that if you are within 20 inches of Siege your caster WILL get auto-hit by an armor piercing boosted PS 12. His feat by itself is OK, its just in combo with his special action that its slowed.
This one I can't remember. He only gets the special shot once. Why is it
auto-hit?
7. Rahn - his spell list with all the mages in his faction that make his feat ridiculous
The mages aren't that tough, and Ret still can't deal with stealth. It's not Rahn's
mages you should fear, but the combination of heavy arc nodes, telekinesis and
his 'jacks.
8. pDenny - its almost like a loss of a turn, but not as bad
She's not called dirty d for nothing! I wonder if it would work to spearhead your
army into hers, so that a feat turn would only affect a few units at a time. However,
that gives her bone chickens free reign to out-flank you. Hm.
Still, she hates AOEs as much as the Caines.
9. eGaspy - its pretty bad, but without incorporeal its not nearly as bad.
Here I'm going to say that he can still play keep away and still destroy tons of
your army on his feat turn. He's also still going to kill his own Tartarus if you don't
first.
The only way to really get at him is if you can ignore cloud effects. Otherwise,
you're going to have to eat that spectral charge.
10. Zerkova - there are ways around it, but its still really good...not that she has much else going for her.
I can't remember.
11. Harbinger - PS 14 AND her control radius is 20 inches...
If need be, I'd still move my 'caster closer and eat the damage. It's not like she
can boost it. Your other options are to move away, shoot, or, you know, have
lots of models that don't care about POW 14 (8 wound units, heavy warbeasts
and warjacks, even undamaged lights aren't all that concerned unless you're
relying on the arc node to survive).
I agree that there are ways to get around a lot of feats, but that's a lot of theory machine and in practice not always plausible(not all factions can have long range for Kreoss and must bight the bullet...cryx, skorne, trolls, circle and among those cryx/circle are the high def low arm). My meta generally runs 15/25/35(more so 25) so that heavily influences my thought on some feats, namely the Cygnar casters, as not dieing to certain things(eCaine and Siege) is incredibly hard at 15/25 pts with a variety of casters.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/09/18 19:53:00
Feats that disrupt your turn or penalize your movement are by far the worst, as this is a game of maneuver and combo-building.
Gorton, Denny, and of course, eHaley. pHaley's feat isn't too bad, but Temporal Decceleration is such a powerful spell that it may as well be a feat in its own right.
Knockdown and Stationary (pKreoss, Barnabas, pSorscha) can all be shaken and some models may be outright immune.
Feats that do damage can be undone by anything that mitigates damage.
No warcaster is broken :p They can all be defeated.
i would put egaspy at the top, but his feat got nerfed to Ghosty instead of incoporal (most new players dont know this it seems)
so ill go with..
Denny (bind and -3def...)
ehaley
Searyn - Def 18 vs ranged, then on fear turn her and battlegroup cannot be hit in melee ? free turn of killing alot of times.
egaspy - not the best since the feat change, but still lethal.
esorcha/seige - double damage feat.(hard to give them each a slot)
pkeross - 14" knockdown, to me is overall better the ekeross as you auto hit knockdown targets and they burn focus/fury to stand up along with ignore them for LoS for shooting.
elylith - snipe + extra shot for battlegroup, lots of killey she can kill 6 infantry and 2 death stalkers can kill 4 with a 16" range on feat turn.
Harby - 20" control.. come closer and enjoy your death for moving. (kind of worthless vs heavy beast spam armies though)
I'm surprised there's not more hate for eSkarre's feat. It's the only one I've run into that really frustrated me. I haven't played eGaspy or eDeneghra so that may change eventually, lol.
In the end, all feats are annoying, as they're meant to be very powerful, often end-game type moves and they succeed there!
Well certainly all feats aren't created equal, pmagnus feat for example may have some value in objective based games but otherwise is very weak. As opposed to some of the feats mentioned that are clearly game changers. Feats that facilitate assassinations are very powerful, when that is always a win condition.
