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[edit: why is this in here? I SWEAR I was in off topic forum when I hit submit new thread... Mods, please delete this.]

If I were a poor person in a red state, my primary issue would be which candidate, including Obama, speaks to my needs. If a candidate spends more time defending tax cuts for the wealthy and saying nothing about the poor, including the growing number of children on the poverty rolls, that candidate would be hard pressed to get my vote.

[i]The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Roland S. Martin.

I think this speaks volumes. WHEN I WAS A POOR PERSON, my thoughts were never about how will politician A B and C help me, it was how do I save myself. I find it terrible that people always look for someone else to solve their issues. Unless these people are disabled, veterans, or something else major they can rise above if they so choose. I have been there, and I took myself out of it without aid or help.

Melchiour wrote:I think this speaks volumes. WHEN I WAS A POOR PERSON, my thoughts were never about how will politician A B and C help me, it was how do I save myself. I find it terrible that people always look for someone else to solve their issues. Unless these people are disabled, veterans, or something else major they can rise above if they so choose. I have been there, and I took myself out of it without aid or help.

Sure, but in 40k, I think that most people look to the Emperor for salvation. I don't think that's wrong either. I mean, he is their God. From an omniscient point of view, we know he's not really in a position to help out, but most of the Imperium is so completely brainwashed that they can't see the writing on the wall.

daedalus wrote:Sure, but in 40k, I think that most people look to the Emperor for salvation. I don't think that's wrong either. I mean, he is their God. From an omniscient point of view, we know he's not really in a position to help out, but most of the Imperium is so completely brainwashed that they can't see the writing on the wall.

At least there is the Imperial Guard - you could argue that the concepts of universal cooperation and mutual help between member worlds of the IoM to fight off a martial threat isn't much different from the general potential behind the idea of uniting the same way to fight off poverty, which (on modern worlds) really only exists because the nobility only cares for themselves. Sure, on some worlds, diligent service may bring you into the middle classes, but social status and connections seem to play a big role there, too, not to mention the availability of education, or that those in power will generally attempt to minimize what they'd have to pay their workers.
In comparison to the Imperium: look how the Tau do it - have you ever heard of a malnourished Tau?

That said, the Ecclesiarchy seems to be a bit split on the issue. On one hand, you do have "charity" events organized by the Ministorum, but on the other they are still a warrior-church preaching that "the Emperor helps those who help themselves" and that spiritual purity is way more important than bodily wealth anyways. Could just be a difference between the opinions of lay servants and policy-makers, of course. Or a big PR stunt.

Actually it IS somewhat honest, especially after the reforms done at the end of the Age of Apostasy. Humility is a virtue in the Ecclesiarchy, modeling after Sebastian Thor's life.

Yeah, that's what they preach, but looking at the expensive trappings of the upper clergy I'm inclined to say that the Ministorum has once more digressed a little from that path. Not to the same level as it was during and before Vandire's reign, of course, but it's not really what Thor was preaching as well. It just strikes me as if there'd be a certain "disconnect" between certain levels of the Ecclesiarchy, a bit like in the real catholic church.

I think it's because the things that originally led the Imperial Cult from its humble beginnings to the Age of Apostasy (complete adoration and devotion of the masses, political influence for leeway, and the flaws of human nature) are still in place - perhaps best described as an ever-revolving circle of a build-up of power and arrogance until it reaches critical mass and gets beaten down again. It could probably best be described as the corrupting influence of power, and various Apostate Cardinals show that a certain lure does exist, in current times held in check by the Inquisition and the deliberately penitent Sisterhood.

How it will look like in another couple thousand years (if the Imperium will survive that long) ... who knows.

You should also keep in mind that it really was legalistically reformed as well, preventing any individual member of it from gaining too much power.

Until someone finds another loophole, at which point we'll need another Sebastian Thor.

Technically, the Frateris Militia are that loophole. Anything not directly affiliated with the Ecclesiarchy - including Guard and Navy commanders - is fair game. That's how those Apostate Cardinals can amass so much local power that they become a threat that has to be taken out with force.

For the moment, it is really not likely that this kind of influence could spread beyond a few worlds or even a sub-sector. But it's not impossible either - just like Thor was able to counter Vandire's influence back then simply because he gained so much support from the locals he encountered. I believe some licensed material deals with this kind of stuff. The Siege of Vraks springs to mind.

Aaaanyhow, that's all theories, of course, and somewhat distant from the original point I was trying to make, which is that not everyone in the Ecclesiarchy is living what they preach.

Ironically, there is this one saying about Vandire:
"It is the story of a man who did insane things because he put into practice what many Saints have preached."
- Confessor Dolan Chirosius

Dolan was referring to Sebastian Thor when he said that.

If that would be so, this quote wouldn't pop up in the Codex section dealing with Vandire's reign, but with the Thorian insurrection about three pages later. Also, I doubt Dolan would call the teachings of Thor "insane" (that'd be a bit counter-productive).

The confusion exemplifies nicely what I was trying to express, though.

Lynata wrote:That said, the Ecclesiarchy seems to be a bit split on the issue. On one hand, you do have "charity" events organized by the Ministorum, but on the other they are still a warrior-church preaching that "the Emperor helps those who help themselves" and that spiritual purity is way more important than bodily wealth anyways. Could just be a difference between the opinions of lay servants and policy-makers, of course.

Not really. You often get individuals or groups who are temporarily down on their luck and could use a brief bit of help in order to get themselves stabilised again. It only truly becomes a split issue when the charities end up supporting layabouts - i.e. those who could support themselves but make a decision not to over the long term because the charity is easier.