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Hey guys.

I was just talking with my bro about him starting 40k. He's been interested about eldar and we were looking up a decent starter army that is around 1000-1500pts worth. Packages we chose for that were:
Eldar Codex = 26€
Eldar Battleforce x2 = 160€
Dire Avengers Squad= 30€
Fireprism = 39€
Falcon = 39€
Fire Dragon Squad = 26€
Farseer and Warlocks = 26€

Total price so far = 346€ (not including rulebook, painting supplies or templates)

After seeing that, he's rethinking of entering the hobby. Which made me think that GW has been pricing themselves way too high to attract new players. Anyone else feel this way?

If you read the forums, you will see that many people feel this way.
Generally what I suggest to people who are thinking about getting into 40K is to start with a small 500 point army, to see if they like it. If they do, then continue to a larger force later on.

This is just going to devolve into a big flame war about GW and their prices. Yes they can be a bit high, especially outside of Europe, but on the other hand it is a luxury/specialty product.

Another bit of advice, dont be in a rush to start playing immediately. It is far more economical to space an army out over a few months of buying.

Yes GW is expensive, but most hobbies are, unless you collect stamps or collect rocks.

I do think they should lower prices because it is very hard to get new players if they have to spend 300 dollars to start not including templates rulebook painting supplies/glue.

But the rewards of having you're own army are SO worth it

I would echo the idea of simply starting smaller.

Although, personally, I think the game is most fun around the 1500 point level, the price you'll spend on it gets silly quickly and that kind of investment should only be made if you really want to stick with it.

Failing that, there's always eBay, my friend got a passable Tau force for probably a 1/3 of what it should have cost (although I am aware he was fairly lucky in that regard).

Thunder555 wrote:Hey guys.

I was just talking with my bro about him starting 40k. He's been interested about eldar and we were looking up a decent starter army that is around 1000-1500pts worth. Packages we chose for that were:
Eldar Codex = 26€
Eldar Battleforce x2 = 160€
Dire Avengers Squad= 30€
Fireprism = 39€
Falcon = 39€
Fire Dragon Squad = 26€
Farseer and Warlocks = 26€

Total price so far = 346€ (not including rulebook, painting supplies or templates)

After seeing that, he's rethinking of entering the hobby. Which made me think that GW has been pricing themselves way too high to attract new players. Anyone else feel this way?

You aren't supposed to buy an army like that outright. That just leads to having unpainted and possibly unassembled boxes of guys for months.Play kill team.

Let him get a box of fire dragons, and maybe a wave serpent. Help him make them look really cool and painted nice, and play kill team for awhile until he understands the rules. Thats the price of two new video games, a few nights of cheap partying etc.

Is GW overpiced? It doesn't really matter. If you enjoy painting, modding, and playing the game, you will get many hours of enjoyment out of it. If you are only interested in one aspect of the hobby there are better options.

Competetive gaming - play Dawn of War II or another RTS.
Painting and Assembling - There are cheaper good miniatures out there if you are only into that.
The Lore - The have a few good books and 2 RPGs set in the 40k universe, Dark Heresy and Death Watch.
The Lore Again - Dawn of War, Space Marine. Both decent video game series.

But if you are into everything play 40k and start by playing kill team.

A kill team game is essentially a game that doesn't use HQ or Heavy Support that uses a 200 point limit. Oh and special rules.

Lightcavalier wrote:This is just going to devolve into a big flame war about GW and their prices. Yes they can be a bit high, especially outside of Europe, but on the other hand it is a luxury/specialty product.

Luxury/specialty product it may be, but it's a product largely aimed at children/younger teenagers. Some of which may or may not be lucky to have parents willing to pay out of the arse for their kids' hobby. But most dont, or are on some limited allowance where even one box of Tactical Marines is a daunting purchase, let alone the rulebook, codex, paints, glue etc etc etc.

Even with the 'luxury goods premium' people have to pay for their hobbies, even what GW offers for their range is 'a bit high', especially for us Aussies.

Ronin wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:This is just going to devolve into a big flame war about GW and their prices. Yes they can be a bit high, especially outside of Europe, but on the other hand it is a luxury/specialty product.

Luxury/specialty product it may be, but it's a product largely aimed at children/younger teenagers. Some of which may or may not be lucky to have parents willing to pay out of the arse for their kids' hobby. But most dont, or are on some limited allowance where even one box of Tactical Marines is a daunting purchase, let alone the rulebook, codex, paints, glue etc etc etc.

Even with the 'luxury goods premium' people have to pay for their hobbies, even what GW offers for their range is 'a bit high', especially for us Aussies.

Don't the miniatures say that they are not toys on the back of the packages or something?

I never saw this hobby as being aimed at younger teenages or children. Most wargamers I have met are college students and people who are in or used to be in the military. Of course I live near/ go to a university so maybe my anecodtal experience isn't representative of the whole.

Honestly I doubt that a child would be able to handle wargaming without a parent not only financially supporting them, but being involved in the hobby with them.

@MediumYellow and Thaanos: We've been playing for a while by now. So far he's been using one of my armies. Now he was thinking about getting one his own that is decent sized to play with. We've usually have preferred 1500pts as minimum game.

We've been also talking about Warmachine.. apparently getting a good start in that game is 100€ or less? Probably should look it up.

I've actually been having a bit of trouble myself getting started. I have a thread over here in regards to starting a Blood Angels army (The community has been SO helpful, I've been able to save a fair bit of money) but just trying to keep myself at a budget.

The thing that's killing me though is the price of bits, $17AU for 5 Meltaguns...

MediumYellow wrote:Don't the miniatures say that they are not toys on the back of the packages or something?

I never saw this hobby as being aimed at younger teenages or children. Most wargamers I have met are college students and people who are in or used to be in the military. Of course I live near/ go to a university so maybe my anecodtal experience isn't representative of the whole.

Honestly I doubt that a child would be able to handle wargaming without a parent not only financially supporting them, but being involved in the hobby with them.

Kids dont know better

They're still toy soldiers, of a sort. And when a kid walks into a Games Workshop store, and sees all these brightly painted miniatures, of 8-fit tall killing machines, brutal fungi, robots and dragons and what have you, how is a kid not going to be attracted to that? I sure was, and all my friends at that age. And why wouldnt GW capitalise on that?

That being said, Im not discounting all the adult/mature gamers that are into the hobby in the long term either. I'm just saying Games Workshop does have a focus on attracting the younger crowd as much as, if not more so, than the more mature crowd who can financially support themselves within the hobby.

One way to get into it is auctions/ebay.
There are often whole armies going for roughly 1/3 RRP.
Or, spend a while bidding on the low priced items, and see what you end up with. Build up from there.

Looking at the list of bits in the OP, it's Mechdar you're going for.
Mock up some paper vehicles, and start with just the DAs, Fire Dragons and psykers. Proxy the rest.
Good call on the double set of Battleforces. Any time I look to get a Wave serpent, I see whether a BF box is better, value-wise. Do I need the other stuff in the box?...

There's always the Swap forum here. Put a Wanted post up in there. See what Dakka comes up with.

bombboy1252 wrote:Yes GW is expensive, but most hobbies are, unless you collect stamps or collect rocks.

Stamp collecting is cheap? Try this this!

MediumYellow wrote:[
Don't the miniatures say that they are not toys on the back of the packages or something?
I never saw this hobby as being aimed at younger teenages or children.

Not toys, and it's not aimed at children, but 40k and WHFB has always been targeted at young teenagers (and older teenagers). Here's an interesting article (thanks reds8n) where Rick Priestly and John Stallard explain that from the very beginning they tailored their games to young teens and the particular way that young teens have of interacting with the world.

http://www.battlegames.co.uk/documents/BG_HH-RP-JS-interview_unabridged.pdf

Thunder555 wrote: He's been interested about eldar and we were looking up a decent starter army that is around 1000-1500pts worth.

Problem 1. Define "starter army".

That's not a starter army, that's a full army. I realize that he wants to play big games with you, but if he can't realize that this is a game that builds on itself over time, and may take a while to buy/assemble/paint/learn, then 40k (or mass battle wargaming in general) might not be the ideal hobby for him.

Start with a nice 750 point force. Buy, assemble, and then see what he wants to add to the mix. Not only will he not be overwhelmed, but he won't be immidiately tied to a full army and he can expand the force as he sees fit.

Thunder555 wrote:Total price so far = 346€ (not including rulebook, painting supplies or templates)

Issue 2. Never pay full price.
I assume those are retail prices. A little patience on Bartertown, and some clever buying on ebay, followed by a purchase from a discounter can bring that total price down by 33% or more.

Thunder555 wrote: After seeing that, he's rethinking of entering the hobby. Which made me think that GW has been pricing themselves way too high to attract new players. Anyone else feel this way?

Issue 3. Prices being too high.
The prices are very high. It's high enough that many folks have dropped out of the hobby and many more have declined to enter. It is worth weighing whether someone really wants to buy into the hobby, or whether it's just a passing interest. If the high price is going to be a major barrier and bargain purchases aren't going to bring the price down enough to make it appealing, then I would suggest not buying into 40k. I don't say it snobbishly as if I was looking into starting wargaming today, I admit that I probably would not start 40k due to price reasons.

Eilif wrote:
The prices are very high. It's high enough that many folks have dropped out of the hobby and many more have declined to enter. It is worth weighing whether someone really wants to buy into the hobby, or whether it's just a passing interest. If the high price is going to be a major barrier and bargain purchases aren't going to bring the price down enough to make it appealing, then I would suggest not buying into 40k. I don't say it snobbishly as if I was looking into starting wargaming today, I admit that I probably would not start 40k due to price reasons.

Couldn't agree with this more. The problem is that these days there are not the smaller 'skirmish' options for new players coming to GW, to find out not only if they enjoy wargaming, but also to give a small force that they can take some time to build and paint, to find their feet in the hobby as it were. Pick up any issue of WD and it is rare that you will find a battle report that fields anything less than hordes of miniatures, and I can imagine this being very intimidating to the new player, especially if they are working on a budget.

I would definitely echo some of the sentiments above - make a small 600pt force, a couple of squads with a character and a vehicle, and to go from there.

Thunder555 wrote:We've usually have preferred 1500pts as minimum game.

Well here is your problem right here!

Start with 500 points, move up to 750, and build back up to 1500-2000 in 250 bricks.

That will allow your friend to start out small, purchasing a 500 point army is considerably cheaper than a full army, and by the time his guys are assembled, painted, and taken for a few nights of gaming, he'll know what units he likes and doesn't like, and will be able to buy a few more models to hit the next point limit. All this without making him deal with an incredible backlog on painting and assembling. It will also give him the opportunity to see what units he likes the best, and build his army in a way that best suits his style of play.

[80] Farseer- Doom
[195] 10 Guardians- shuri cannon : Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon, extra shuri cannon
[170] 5 Dire Avengers : Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon, extra shuri cannon
[60] War Walker- 2 scatter lasers

Total: 505 points

1 Battle Force
1 Farseer Blister
1 Wave Serpent

3 purchases, solid low point army, and a great start on a good larger army. This is much more reasonable than what you were plannign to do originally, and I think your friend would have more fun starting slow like new armies should

EDIT: Toned down because Avatar 720 was correct

akaean wrote:

Thunder555 wrote:We've usually have preferred 1500pts as minimum game.

Well here is your problem right here! You've arbitrarily decided that low point games- the most feasable entry point for a new player- are somehow inferior, and forcing him to purchase an entire 1500 point army in one go so that he can bring his own army to the table.

If you actually want your friend to start you need to get off that high horse and do some low point games / campaigns. Start with 500 points, move up to 750, and build back up to 1500-2000 in 250 bricks.

This is much more reasonable than what you were plannign to do originally, and I think your friend would have more fun starting slow like new armies should- instead of being given what is essentially an ultimatum : "Buy a whole army or don't get your own".

Wow, how did you manage to assume that he's shoving these things down his throat from a small comment that specified their preferred game size? Your post is really quite rude for no real reason.

As for the issue, consider buying the new army in small parts, but still using your spare models to proxy what he hasn't got yet. You said he already uses one of your armies to play, so there's nothing that's really stopping you guys from playing lower points due to the amount of models. Buying a 500pt army and then playing only 500pts whilst there's 1.5k of spare models lying around makes no sense; playing 1500pts whilst gradually replacing proxies with the real thing will keep you both interested and focussed on it.

Tactical squad = 3000 RSD
Terminators = 3500 RSD ( Assault ones to )
Razorback = 2670 RSD
Land Raider = 4500 RSD

With 2x tacticals and 2x Razorback, 1xTerminator and 1xAssault Terminator squads with Land Raider.

Total = 22840 RSD = 230 EUR

I'm past complaining about the prices, they are sort of comedic now.

Brother Coa wrote:Tactical squad = 3000 RSD
Terminators = 3500 RSD ( Assault ones to )
Razorback = 2670 RSD
Land Raider = 4500 RSD

With 2x tacticals and 2x Razorback, 1xTerminator and 1xAssault Terminator squads with Land Raider.

Total = 22840 RSD = 230 EUR

Tactical Squad = $62
Terminators = $74
Razorback = $55
Land Raider = $110

With 2x tacticals and 2x Razorback, 1xTerminator and 1xAssault Terminator squads with Land Raider.

Total = $418 = 302.11€

What do I win?

Personally i think GW could do more to help out with the prices though

what about "buy two troop choices and get a HQ half price"

or "buy two of a squadron get the third 2/3 off"

somthing like that would go a long way in my books

n0t_u wrote:
What do I win?

ANd averaqge salery here is 200 EUR.
What do I win .

The other thing is finding that your $500+ idea sucks and now you are sitting with a lame duck army.

Start small and see if the army fits your style. Who knows, he may find he doesn't like the Eldar and it is a lot less painful to switch your army with a minimum investment.

Ahx wrote:I've actually been having a bit of trouble myself getting started. I have a thread over here in regards to starting a Blood Angels army (The community has been SO helpful, I've been able to save a fair bit of money) but just trying to keep myself at a budget.

The thing that's killing me though is the price of bits, $17AU for 5 Meltaguns...

And the price of a molding kit from Amazon is $30, which will let you make your own meltaguns. And before I get flamed....I don't give a ****.

When a codex entry has 4 special weapons for five guys, and a box of those guys only has one of the special weapons, there's a limit to how much trading, searching through bitz websites, begging and borrowing you will do. Now I'm going to learn how to make my own since I can't find enough of the real thing.

Brother Coa wrote:

n0t_u wrote:
What do I win?

ANd averaqge salery here is 200 EUR.
What do I win .

My sympathy, it's rather rare.

He can start by checking my sale thread of Eldar

And yes, that price is utterly ridiculous for a starting army. That's why I never buy retail from GW.

Agreed with Dash as well. The kits should come with every combination the codex entries offer. Since most don't, well, then proper measures are taken.

The solution is Dakka swap shop, Bartertown, eBay and Craigslist.

While I agree that the price of models is shocking as all hell (even worse than when I started), there is a base assumption by the OP that people want to start the hobby by buying a full army. I don't think this is the case. Spoiled kids and really enthusiastic collectors are the exception, most people still view an army as a goal. I'm sure there are more people painting up squads and characters for their next game than there are people painting whole armies for their next tournament or apocalypse game.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Ahx wrote:I've actually been having a bit of trouble myself getting started. I have a thread over here in regards to starting a Blood Angels army (The community has been SO helpful, I've been able to save a fair bit of money) but just trying to keep myself at a budget.

The thing that's killing me though is the price of bits, $17AU for 5 Meltaguns...

And the price of a molding kit from Amazon is $30, which will let you make your own meltaguns. And before I get flamed....I don't give a ****.

When a codex entry has 4 special weapons for five guys, and a box of those guys only has one of the special weapons, there's a limit to how much trading, searching through bitz websites, begging and borrowing you will do. Now I'm going to learn how to make my own since I can't find enough of the real thing.

Or you can buy a pack of 5 meltas for 8 bucks. thats what i did.

When it comes to the value of a hobby no one can definitively say what's worth it and what's not. It's something you have to decide for yourself. Is 40K expensive? Somewhat. It'll cost a few hundred just for one army, there are cheaper hobbies. There are also more expensive hobbies, but people still enjoy those as well.

OP, it would seem that you have quite a collection, could you not set up a game with your brother using one of your armies? Have him read over the rules, get familiar with the units, then try it out. If he's interested in the gameplay he can then consider buying a smaller army if the price you've quoted still seems too high. I'd suggest buying in at 500-750 like many others have. Worst case scenario, 40k has good resale value, if he really isn't thinking it's worth it you can probably sell everything off for 80% of what he paid.

Take it from me(I have to build one troop at a time). The prices are a bit high but I am going to say start with a 500 pt army and go from there. There is nothing to say that you have to start with a 1500 pt army. Almost everybody at my shop will play me with my 500 pt BA army and when I was building my necrons a couple of guys would loan me models so I could play when I didn't even have enough to play a 500 pt game. So tell your friend if he really wants to play start with 500 pts and slowly build up from there and the wait is so worth it cause when its all said and done you will have an arm you are proud of. Oh and btw my son who is 7 plays and I have to help him build his ork army while building my own. He absolutely loves it plus it's fun watching some 25 yr old kid cry when he gets pwned by a 7 yr old lol.