Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Colonel Cross**

Well flamers on Cadians is kind of a waste.

Autocannons aren't that great, I'm sure you noticed.

Tank Commanders are great platforms for las cannons.

I think all of the IG players on Dakka dislike multi meltas on Russes, regardless of Pask or no.

I tend to shy away from using sponsons on regular Russes. Keep them cheap.

In a list like that, your power is obviously coming from your tanks and artillery. So I tend to "min" my infantry by only giving them a special weapon since I know they'll be my screen. Plasma guns for everybody.

A psyker and some Bullgryn could have really helped you out, I'm betting. The key to IG shooting being "OP" is to utilize stratagems, orders, and keep your big guns out of combat.

As far as snipers go, Ratlings were in kind of a weird place with their low T and SV. They wanted to be infiltrated to vantage points which usually meant they were probably the only option for enemy troops. They're not that good at screening deep strikers since they'll crumble so quickly. Now they have that price bump and I don't really ever see using them again. I had used 10 in conjunction with a Vindicare and they barely did squat. As the IG player I'm the one concerned by enemy snipers since our characters are so easily put down. But if I'm facing a space marine player (which let's face it, is the vast majority of opponents you'll face) I'm unlikely to do much to them.

**Captain Roderick**

So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.

Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?

**Colonel Cross**

Hmm, that is actually pretty smart. I hadn't considered that.

Although I haven't really ran into that issue yet since I use 40 dudes as my screen and make sure there is no space to consolidate into my tanks.

**gungo**

Colonel Cross wrote:
You know, I'm not sure how many people have realized what a Combat Engineer squad can do with that grenade stratagem! Potentially 9 kraks and 1 melta bomb or all acid bombs. That is crazy good.

6 in range is the issue with grenades (and there is no point to krak unless you target a vehicle) however carcass shotguns are 2+ to wound assault 2 damage2 with 12in range which is really good too, except lack of ap, But ideally you want those acid bombs instead since it's d3 dam and ap-2, 2+ wound.

**Arachnofiend**

So I'm shopping around for another army, I'm pretty against base line Guard but the thought of a Tempestus army piques my interest as someone who prefers generally elite armies. Is it viable to build an army entirely out of <Militarum Tempestus> units? It seems too small of a group to be valid on its own. What would such an army look like, and how would it play other than "dump plasma scions down your opponent's pants and hope for the best"?

**tneva82**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Hmm, that is actually pretty smart. I hadn't considered that.

Although I haven't really ran into that issue yet since I use 40 dudes as my screen and make sure there is no space to consolidate into my tanks.

Problem being those casualties and 2nd turn onward. I had 40 screens. Turn casualties opened up hole. Tun 2 screen was out on left so tagging worked. Turn 3 center screen was out as well and multiple units were getting tagged to combat

**Spoletta**

tneva82 wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
Hmm, that is actually pretty smart. I hadn't considered that.

Although I haven't really ran into that issue yet since I use 40 dudes as my screen and make sure there is no space to consolidate into my tanks.

Problem being those casualties and 2nd turn onward. I had 40 screens. Turn casualties opened up hole. Tun 2 screen was out on left so tagging worked. Turn 3 center screen was out as well and multiple units were getting tagged to combat

Depending the on the opponent, screens are not a good solution, especially if they are not conscripts. Vostroyans/Valhallans are indeed a good solution most of the times, you will still need screens and many flamers though.

**Kdash**

Colonel Cross wrote:

I think all of the IG players on Dakka dislike multi meltas on Russes, regardless of Pask or no.

And I’m kinda sad about that a little. I personally enjoy 3 Conquerors with MM sponsons using the Tallarn stratagem to outflank. Nice and simple, and generally will put you into melta range turn 1, along with the ability to ignore the movement hit penalty!

**exliontamer**

deltaKshatriya wrote:

Exactly, it's just not worth the points for a bare bones upgrade, and commissars don't do much else other than that. There are other models/regiments that to LD buffs better than something like a commissar. I mean I get the conscript nerf. Even the point increase isn't a huge deal, though maybe a bit unnecessary. The commissar is now actually a useless model. There are no scenarios where it will ever be useful. What would have made more sense is if they had done re-roll with -3 or something similar.

Also, also...remember that for a unit you really don't want to fail a morale test (say a big conscript blob, if you still want to try to take one) an Astropath for the same points as a Commissar can take the Mental Fortitude power and essentially be a better Commissar on a 4+. Can only be used once per turn in matched play, but to protect an important squad or huge blob from taking morale casualties I definitely think it's worth it. Plus the ignore cover ability probably will come in every other game or so.

**gendoikari87**

So if I wanted to make guardsmen just pop up out of no where what’s the best way to do that. Making a Vietnam themed catachan army and I want to be able to go “surprise behind you” sort of ambush

**RegulusBlack**

use "Catachan" themed Scions, the pop out worrks the same as Deep Strike, i was thinking the same thing but with Tanith FAO

**gendoikari87**

Problem is I want to use the actual catachan (and Escher) models

**AdmiralHalsey**

Gotta love those Carapace armoured hellgun wielding light infantry for sure.

**Unit1126PLL**

Can't Elysian squads deepstrike?

EDIT: You'd lose the Catachan regimental doctrine though (essentially trading it for deep strike).

**Captain Roderick**

gendoikari87 wrote:
Problem is I want to use the actual catachan (and Escher) models

So they're masters of stealth, therefore always have a cover save. 5+ becomes a 4+ everywhere :-D

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Gotta love those Carapace armoured hellgun wielding light infantry for sure.

Totally do-able in only war!

**exliontamer**

Captain Roderick wrote:
So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.

Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?

Nice thought! I actually don't even care about killing an occasional infantryman on a 1...I used to be Renegades until it became pointless to play them. Too bad it only works on infantry...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be able to shoot artillery into my own guys again... I'm sick, I know.

**Captain Roderick**

exliontamer wrote:
Captain Roderick wrote:
So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.

Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?

Nice thought! I actually don't even care about killing an occasional infantryman on a 1...I used to be Renegades until it became pointless to play them. Too bad it only works on infantry...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be able to shoot artillery into my own guys again... I'm sick, I know.

A couple of spearheads full of mortars not good enough for you?

**exliontamer**

Captain Roderick wrote:

A couple of spearheads full of mortars not good enough for you?

It's just not the same as pointing cheap Earthshakers and Heavy Mortars at them

EDIT: I guess what I really miss is templates too...

**Spinner**

gendoikari87 wrote:
So if I wanted to make guardsmen just pop up out of no where what’s the best way to do that. Making a Vietnam themed catachan army and I want to be able to go “surprise behind you” sort of ambush

You could take the Tallarn doctrine instead and use the Ambush strategem, it works perfectly for Catachan stealth specialists. You're losing out on their own doctrine, though...

You could also use the Dagger relic, although that just ambushes an officer and an accompanying squad!

**More Dakka**

Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.

Vanguard - Tallarn

HQ

Company Commander

Elites

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Dedicated Transport

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Taurox

Taurox

Spearhead - Catachan

HQ

Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)

Elites

Sgt Harker

Heavy Support

Basilisk x 2

LR Executioner x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.

Thoughts and ways I can adjust?

**Captain Roderick**

RegulusBlack wrote:
use "Catachan" themed Scions, the pop out worrks the same as Deep Strike, i was thinking the same thing but with Tanith FAO

Actually elysians would really work for tanith - they often use spotters with their Snipers, have a thing for missile launchers and demo charges, never use lascannon, and are sometimes ordered to fight to the death without fleeing. They even used buggies once!

**lash92**

More Dakka wrote:
Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.

Vanguard - Tallarn

HQ

Company Commander

Elites

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Dedicated Transport

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Taurox

Taurox

Spearhead - Catachan

HQ

Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)

Elites

Sgt Harker

Heavy Support

Basilisk x 2

LR Executioner x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.

Thoughts and ways I can adjust?

You need screens ^^

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How is the double HF chimera performing?

I'm debating whether to run my mechanised Infantry as Tallarn with the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera or as Catachan with 2xHF. Any thoughts?

**MrMoustaffa**

More Dakka wrote:
Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.

Spoiler:

Vanguard - Tallarn

HQ

Company Commander

Elites

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

SWS 3x Plasma gun

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser

Dedicated Transport

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB

Taurox

Taurox

Spearhead - Catachan

HQ

Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)

Elites

Sgt Harker

Heavy Support

Basilisk x 2

LR Executioner x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

LR Conqueror x 2

All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.

Thoughts and ways I can adjust?

Stormtroopers are the same cost as always, and plasma didn't go up in points last I checked, we still pay 13pts or whatever it was for BS 3+ weapons. Battlescribe updated but they've got a few costs wrong, notably plasma. Is that where you saw that points raise? Far as I can tell it's still 9 points per guy and 1pt for the hellguns.

**lash92**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Stormtroopers are the same cost as always, and plasma didn't go up in points last I checked, we still pay 13pts or whatever it was for BS 3+ weapons. Battlescribe updated but they've got a few costs wrong, notably plasma. Is that where you saw that points raise? Far as I can tell it's still 9 points per guy and 1pt for the hellguns.

Yes no changes there. Just the Command Rod and the Melta which went up in points.

**DoomMouse**

Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".

I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.

**Naix**

Edit: Yeah Scions are definitely the same cost.

**Captain Roderick**

DoomMouse wrote:
Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".

I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.

I've just started playing around in battlescribe with the idea,thanks for the inspiration

It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?

**DoomMouse**

Captain Roderick wrote:
DoomMouse wrote:
Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".

I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.

I've just started playing around in battlescribe with the idea,thanks for the inspiration

It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?

Personally I'm fine with it in a competitive game or tournament. I don't really have a problem with a detachment of tanks being good at X and an infantry detachment being good at Y. They need to be easy to distinguish though, I'd not like to fight a gunline with random mixed-doctrine squads that all look the same. I'm in the process of converting up a bunch of Elysians with fixed-winged backpacks to distinguish them from the rest of my army.

**Alpharius Walks**

Captain Roderick wrote:
It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?

It obviously depends on what you are playing against but if I am fielding max Lemans I am starting to go towards scout sentinels over bodies-either can be shot past while the sentinels push the no deep strike bubble back further. I played the following against an Alpha Legion infilatrate/deep strike list and would take the sentinels every time.

Spoiler:

**Colonel Cross**

Interesting list. What's with the command squad? Haha