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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Master of the Vanguard might actually make BT TH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?

That was my immediate thought as well! Great minds think alike.

Especially with how the Librarian can get into a good position as well and doesn't really need the buffing powers except maybe just for himself (I see good applications for the extra movement one as a way to charge into something as a tarpit).

HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.

Interesting. That does seem to work. I’m not sure you’d be able to use BT-specific units in that case, as you’d need to use a home brew chapter and they wouldn’t have the <BT> keyword which they need. Not sure though, and otherwise it seems legit.

That said, wouldn’t the drop lieutenant be the more obvious choice in this case? I get that you can infiltrate the librarian but he’s then got to live through turn one. Or your opponent could just move away.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.

Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.

Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.

Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.

Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.

Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.

Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.

Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.

Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.

Yeah Helbrecht is cool, but non-essential.

I'd still give the trait to a drop lieutenant and play actual BTs though I think. The librarian doesn't actually add huge amounts. Your opponent can see where he is and either kill him before your stuff appears or wander off, since you've told him where your attack is coming.

Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit. Ideally have a squad of 6 or 7 sit on an objective with the librarian close by. They can sit and fire reliably from their position and heal any casualties while the Libby could use shrouding on them or smoke!

I think they are the most useful unit from shadow spear for sure, the suppressors seem quite poor and the eliminators are OK. Infiltrators will definitely find a way in for me though.

As I said in some other thread on the new guys, I actually don't think the Suppressors are that bad (except in appearance. Bleh). Auto cannons are pretty good and they are a nonvehicle way to take them. And they aren't quite as overpriced as plasma inceptors or hellblasters.

Personally, I prefer the look of an army with a few vehicles, but the way the game works a few is just a prime AT weapon target, so Suppressors give me a route to get some more heavy guns in a pure infantry list. Mortal wound strats aside, I'd rather have a 33pt Suppressor than a Devastator, so I'm definitely considering a few of them for my list ideas.

Devastators are the only unit in the army that can reliably pump out 2d3 mortal wounds per turn, an ability worth its weight in gold.

bort wrote:
As I said in some other thread on the new guys, I actually don't think the Suppressors are that bad (except in appearance. Bleh). Auto cannons are pretty good and they are a nonvehicle way to take them. And they aren't quite as overpriced as plasma inceptors or hellblasters.

Personally, I prefer the look of an army with a few vehicles, but the way the game works a few is just a prime AT weapon target, so Suppressors give me a route to get some more heavy guns in a pure infantry list. Mortal wound strats aside, I'd rather have a 33pt Suppressor than a Devastator, so I'm definitely considering a few of them for my list ideas.

They're actually 35, as you have to buy them grav chutes. Still the same as a hellblaster.

I actually think all three of the squads in shadowspear will find their uses. Suppressors are essentially alternate hellblasters, with an option to do less damage from a much safer location. Eliminators look like they'll be great objective holders and the cheapers primaris unit currently available - which could come in very handy if you want something like a relic leviathan. Infiltrators do look great, but I wonder if it's not better to just take eliminators, since they aren't much more expensive and they're tougher, thanks to their cloaks. The librarian and lieutenant both definitely have their uses too. It's really just the captain I can't ever see myself fielding. I'm thinking of painting mine up just as an infiltrator sergeant, so I've got 2x5 squads and can add a medic to one if I fancy it. Come to think of it I could probably convert a reiver to another medic without too much hassle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.

Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.

Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.

Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.

He's also a Chapter Master where you don't have to pay 3 CP. Him and the relic are the only real reasons for even considering running Black Templars in the first place rules-wise, since the melee units in the book are atrociously bad no matter what buff characters you throw at them.

I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.

Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.

Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.

Their entire value IMO is in their ability to 100% shutdown deepstriking charges within 12. It's absolutely brutal against some builds and can win the game for you. They are also able to forward deploy and screen out the enemy and capture objectives. This great and all except one major problem you touch on. They are very expensive for doing next to nothing besides that. 22 points for a model with a pathetic boltgun is just sad. They do pathetic damage and are too expensive to be taken in mass to screen. The apothecary is very expensive to the point where why would I ever even consider taking one except in a 10 man squad and even then why would I ever even consider taking a 10 man squad that is very expensive, has very little offensive output and is very vulnerable to morale? They are not a great unit at all IMO and would only be worth it if you only fought DS heavy ork lists and genestealer cult.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.

Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.

Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".

I was trying to just get it to work in casual games. I went with Gulliman + Celestine, 2 squads of assault Terminators, and a Redemptor Dread for my chargers, so 5 units charging in ideally. The results really weren't great over the games I played. I'm sure if you went Black Tide you'd get more charges off, but that strategy doesn't look so great to me this edition, even casually.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.

Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".

I was trying to just get it to work in casual games. I went with Gulliman + Celestine, 2 squads of assault Terminators, and a Redemptor Dread for my chargers, so 5 units charging in ideally. The results really weren't great over the games I played. I'm sure if you went Black Tide you'd get more charges off, but that strategy doesn't look so great to me this edition, even casually.

It depends what you're tiding with. Vanguard are still not awful, Sternguard can charge into something to hopefully finish it off, there's a bunch of Terminators, Scouts of course, etc.

Yes... The strategy can 'work' in the sense that you can either A. get into close combat reliably by running lots of charging units or B. can actually destroy things in close combat, but not both in my experience. If you're charging with 10 squads of Crusaders, some will make it in, but even if they're full strength 20-man blobs they don't kill much and it is highly unlikely that they will be full strength, even 10 man squads in transports. If you're charging with Terminators, the ones that make it in will hopefully kill stuff, but my experience is nothing at all makes it in a lot of times. My best strategy has been using RG, Celestine, Terminators, and Dreads - because if they get into melee they can actually kill things; I use lots of Hurricane bolters and stuff to clear chaff so I can actually charge worthy targets. Ultimately, my chaff clearing does a lot better than my charging does every game; though of course RG is great at bashing in close combat when he gets there, the idea of 'making more charges' doesn't really play out. Sure, you statistically have better chances, but I haven't seen it make enough of a difference that running more guns isn't far better.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.

Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.

Their entire value IMO is in their ability to 100% shutdown deepstriking charges within 12. It's absolutely brutal against some builds and can win the game for you. They are also able to forward deploy and screen out the enemy and capture objectives. This great and all except one major problem you touch on. They are very expensive for doing next to nothing besides that. 22 points for a model with a pathetic boltgun is just sad. They do pathetic damage and are too expensive to be taken in mass to screen. The apothecary is very expensive to the point where why would I ever even consider taking one except in a 10 man squad and even then why would I ever even consider taking a 10 man squad that is very expensive, has very little offensive output and is very vulnerable to morale? They are not a great unit at all IMO and would only be worth it if you only fought DS heavy ork lists and genestealer cult.

My thinking is: you need troops. These guys are pretty useful troops that can set up on objectives, prevent the enemy appearing anywhere near you (or draw fire, being pretty difficult to remove from cover without serious weapons).

Nobody is claiming that they'll somehow take out the enemy army. They are just primaris dudes with slightly different bolt rifles. FWIW, their guns are better than rifles against quite a lot of targets - generally those with better toughness than saves, and obviously most daemons.

I will admit that I'd never take a squad bigger than 5. The medic guy is a waste of time. May as well buy an actual apothecary. He's a cool concept but shouldn't cost any more points. Anyway 5 guys gets you your bubble, which is why these guys exist. 2x5 might be the way to go, but no more than that I think.

Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?

I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.

I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.

A single MSU of Infiltrators seems pretty competitive to me. Set them up out of los centrally to deny a huge section of the board.

I've preordered it but I likely won't field anything in it. Maybe the eliminators since they're cheap, but the rest seem meh, or overcosted. Just gonna paint them up and save them for the occasional narrative game.

The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?

I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.

I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.

The captain isn't useless at all. Stick him in your backlines next to a unit of Hellblasters, give him the warlord trait that gives a unit +1 to hit. 10 Hellblasters, hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s and immune to exploding + 12" deepstrike protection. Only Phobos characters can take the warlord trait, but it's so good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.

Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.

I missed that +1 to hit warlord thing. I assume that’s 1 unit or is it an aura? An aura and I’d take Lt McKnifey over my current Lt with Storm of Fire for sure.

That +1 to hit only affects one squad at a time as far as I know. That makes it a dud compared to Storm of Fire.

Bleh, figured. A max unit of hellblasters or a Leviathan or something would be really nice, but yeah, compared to buffing like 5-6 units at once with base ap 0 or -1...I think the main reason I’d consider it instead is I often forget to apply storm, but wouldn’t forget the +1.

That Trait is interesting for Eliminators of the IF/CF variety.

Firing at a squishy target? Run those Mortis rounds for +2 to hit and add on the trait for another +1.

You're now triggering Bolter Drill on 3s. Maybe a decent number of shots?

IanVanCheese wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?

I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.

I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.

The captain isn't useless at all. Stick him in your backlines next to a unit of Hellblasters, give him the warlord trait that gives a unit +1 to hit. 10 Hellblasters, hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s and immune to exploding + 12" deepstrike protection. Only Phobos characters can take the warlord trait, but it's so good.

Oh, I have not seen the warlord traits in the box yet. So they are locked in for Phobos characters? I wonder if they'll keep that in the eventual codex too

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.

Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.

I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.

Lemondish wrote:
That Trait is interesting for Eliminators of the IF/CF variety.

Firing at a squishy target? Run those Mortis rounds for +2 to hit and add on the trait for another +1.

You're now triggering Bolter Drill on 3s. Maybe a decent number of shots?

Maybe if it was a really big squad of Eliminators. And even then maximum12 Str 4 AP -1 1D shots isn't going to make a ton of characters go running.