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Made in us
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If anything, that bit box raid is all the more welcome.


Not over, or underwhelmed.

Just disappointed that we're not looking at a 10-16 man box of them.

It reminds me of that old school "Stormtrooper" release, that disappeared like a week or two later, or the Metal blister-pack Chaos Cultists release.

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Made in au
[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..






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Magnetize at shoulders/arm join. Check.
Not too worried by the sprue layout, as I magnetize everything anyway.

2021: Games Played:8/Models Bought:262/Sold:0/Painted:132
2020: Games Played:34/Models Bought:562/Sold:471/Painted:200
2019: Games Played:81/Models Bought:175/Sold:271/Painted:92
2018: Games Played: 108/Models Bought: 183/Sold: 1/Painted: 100
2016/17: Games Played:180/Models Bought:414/Sold:106/ Painted:76
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Awe, no 5th body? shucks. Not surprised, but I am disappointed. Someone said 3 of these in a box? That's interesting, but I'd rather more different bodies or more variables ones at least. If we could mix and matched the torsos and legs. Oh well... maybe there's something hiding still. I still miss the separate torsos GW use to do.

The bits that are there look good, more weird looking neck joints tho. We'll see... maybe I'll pick up a box of these scum.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/27 03:21:58


 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

TGG wrote:
Someone said 3 of these in a box?
Well the previews made it appear that there were 12 models in a box.

I mean... I hope there's 12 models in a box.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






At least, i guess it will be easy to use heads and arms from other kits to give them a bit of variety (orlocks and gsc comes to mind)

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in de
Fully-charged Electropriest






 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems very underwhelming. It's sad that gw has such a bean-counter mentality when it comes to necro.


Hmm, to be fair: this kit is fully compatible with the Neophyte and Skitarii kit. While I like real converting, just swapping heads, bodies and weapons isn't something I would criticise....
   
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Cairo, Egypt

 Altruizine wrote:

There is no basis for this speculation. It just comes off as either ignorance (ie. a person who is involved in the GW ecosystem but doesn't actually play Necromunda, and is making assumptions about the equipment available to gangs throughout the iterations of the game so far without having actually experienced the rules themselves) or aggrieved axe-grinding (ie. a person who is generally displeased with the concept of "no model, no rules" and is trying as hard as they can to make it apply to every GW property, regardless of accuracy).


Sorry I should have been clearer, in 40k and Sigmar GW has followed a policy of writing rules based only on what models are available for several years and I would expect it will be extended to Necromunda.

I'm actually starting to like the idea of no models, no rules. I love converting, I love making my own models from my first army of Zombie IG to my current Arbites meet Space Marines.

But even with boxes of bits and 20+ years of collecting I sometimes struggle to make the unit I want, units that legal in the rules. GW has long let their exuberance in including options outstrip what their model kits can do. Even the flagship Space Marine kits are woefully lacking. A major part of the problem is the move from blisters to kits. In 2000 adding a lascannon to a squad just meant buying a $5 blister. Now it means buying a $50 devastater kit.

So GW making a game where your gang can take tons of weapons that are literally not even made is just bad rules writing.


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems very underwhelming. It's sad that gw has such a bean-counter mentality when it comes to necro.


They have from the very start or did you miss the original six gangs have two duplicate sprues instead of two large different sprues found in 40K. If beancounters were truly interfering with Necromunda it would be shut down as it takes away resources from selling Space Marines.

These are the Chaos cultists or eTB pox walkers for Necromunda. I think some ingenious designer found a way to put out 4 more bodies for a release that might have been just another weapon upgrade sprue. The fact that the game is still getting semi-regular plastic releases is kind of mind blowing. It’s probably those low costs that keep it alive.
   
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 Chairman Aeon wrote:
I’m sure I’m not the only Van Saar player who would have liked to have three half sprues if it got us four new unique poses and a couple of new weapons instead of…what we got.


I bet, but this is someone's first sprue, not their second sprue.


You guys know that scene where Seras Victoria shaves off Zorin Blitz's face by scraping her agains a wall? Someone should do a conversion of a Van Saar hoverboard rider shaving the top of their head off on the ceiling.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Chairman Aeon wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems very underwhelming. It's sad that gw has such a bean-counter mentality when it comes to necro.


They have from the very start or did you miss the original six gangs have two duplicate sprues instead of two large different sprues found in 40K. If beancounters were truly interfering with Necromunda it would be shut down as it takes away resources from selling Space Marines.

These are the Chaos cultists or eTB pox walkers for Necromunda. I think some ingenious designer found a way to put out 4 more bodies for a release that might have been just another weapon upgrade sprue. The fact that the game is still getting semi-regular plastic releases is kind of mind blowing. It’s probably those low costs that keep it alive.


If im not mistaken, they had a full sprue and these outlaws are.only a half sprue. Hopefully this is not an omen of things to come.

On another tangent:
Has there been anything announced concerning upgrade packs for cawdor and delaque?

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
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Cawdor announced on the road map. Delaque yet to hit the road map.

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That's great to hear. Hopefully they'll also include bits for redemptionnist. I really want to start them, but most of the heads are horrible. Don't get why they thought jersey shore haircut made sense for religious fanatics

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
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Dakka Veteran





 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 Altruizine wrote:

There is no basis for this speculation. It just comes off as either ignorance (ie. a person who is involved in the GW ecosystem but doesn't actually play Necromunda, and is making assumptions about the equipment available to gangs throughout the iterations of the game so far without having actually experienced the rules themselves) or aggrieved axe-grinding (ie. a person who is generally displeased with the concept of "no model, no rules" and is trying as hard as they can to make it apply to every GW property, regardless of accuracy).


Sorry I should have been clearer, in 40k and Sigmar GW has followed a policy of writing rules based only on what models are available for several years and I would expect it will be extended to Necromunda.

I'm actually starting to like the idea of no models, no rules. I love converting, I love making my own models from my first army of Zombie IG to my current Arbites meet Space Marines.

But even with boxes of bits and 20+ years of collecting I sometimes struggle to make the unit I want, units that legal in the rules. GW has long let their exuberance in including options outstrip what their model kits can do. Even the flagship Space Marine kits are woefully lacking. A major part of the problem is the move from blisters to kits. In 2000 adding a lascannon to a squad just meant buying a $5 blister. Now it means buying a $50 devastater kit.

So GW making a game where your gang can take tons of weapons that are literally not even made is just bad rules writing.


Their decision to lean into "no models, no rules" predates the re-release of Necromunda, however.

So they were already doing it in several systems at the time N18 was released (including in Shadow War: Armageddon, which was sort of a precursor to Necromunda). But then they decided not to apply that philosophy to Necromunda, a decision which must have had some level of intent behind it, because it was a deviation from their general philosophy at the time. And since that decision they have preserved that aspect in all Necromunda releases, up to and including the most recent ones, which are "codexes" that the playerbase can expect to stay relevant for at least a couple of years.

So, yeah, there's no actual evidence that they want to do "no models, no rules" in Necromunda. Sorry for jumping down your throat, but this thread has a history of people saying the writing is on the wall re: "n.m., n.r." coming to this game, or even occasionally (and psychotically) arguing that that paradigm already exists in the game, when neither thing is true. We all know that GW can do idiotic 180s, so it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly decided to enforce "n.m., n.r" in Necromunda without warning, but a logical and unbiased assessment of the game's history to date leaves no available conclusion other than that they're not interested in applying that doctrine here, for whatever reason.
   
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Myrtle Creek, OR

And they are not slow about rules updates either. Since this edition hit in late 2017, players have been spoiled with three books each for the core gangs (core plus gang wars, gangs of the underhive and now books of this or that series). That’s less than 18 months on average to get an updated list for every major gang. That’s right at space marine level of product in updated rules.
   
Made in us
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That outcast sprue is sorely lacking. I think it seems pretty clear the Outcast gang is a release just thrown together and only has gang rules as an after much like how Ogryn gang was. The Ogryn servitor was originally just going to be another kit like the Ambot, but they made the Ogryn gang to sell more. Nothing wrong with that except the lack of effort. The Outcast sprue is clearly intended as a sprue for generic hive scum and nothing more. And the gang is clearly another case of "with minimal effort how can we get more out of this kit?"

There's nothing wrong with the format, just the lack of effort and foresight. I think most anyone that enjoys this game could come up with a list models that could work in this format. Multiple copies of the same smaller sprue would work well enough for generic bounty hunters; 2 or 3 bodies on a sprue and then just weapon options and bits... people will customize them no matter what. Not that they'd ever give it to us, but this makes me wonder what they could do if they just gave us sprues packed with weapons and conversion bits.

Seeing the sprues at least helps these models. The painted up minis made the sculpts look bad. These aren't great, but they aren't as bad as those early painted previews.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 streetsamurai wrote:
That's great to hear. Hopefully they'll also include bits for redemptionnist. I really want to start them, but most of the heads are horrible. Don't get why they thought jersey shore haircut made sense for religious fanatics

'Hopefully GW will sell me a product to remedy their previous sub-par product'.

It really is this easy for them, isn't it?
   
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 Lord Damocles wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
That's great to hear. Hopefully they'll also include bits for redemptionnist. I really want to start them, but most of the heads are horrible. Don't get why they thought jersey shore haircut made sense for religious fanatics

'Hopefully GW will sell me a product to remedy their previous sub-par product'.

It really is this easy for them, isn't it?
I wouldn't be surprised if Redemptionists were the first kit designed with the notion that they'd be giving gangs upgrade sprues. So while that's no excuse I think when ever the cawdor and redemptionists get their upgrade sprue we'll get a more complete version of what their designers had in mind. Its easy to imagine at some review, someone said "We got make sure these upgrade sprues are 'exciting' enough... these heads and options should go to that sprue instead of being part of the kit."
   
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 lord_blackfang wrote:

You guys know that scene where Seras Victoria shaves off Zorin Blitz's face by scraping her agains a wall? Someone should do a conversion of a Van Saar hoverboard rider shaving the top of their head off on the ceiling.


While I'd love more VanSaar poses, I leave my depravity in the hands of the Dark Eldar.

And a belt sander works well for that trick as well.

It is frustrating that to even get different arms we have to go to FW if I want, say, a van saar arm, pointing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 18:12:36



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 Altruizine wrote:

There is no basis for this speculation. It just comes off as either ignorance (ie. a person who is involved in the GW ecosystem but doesn't actually play Necromunda, and is making assumptions about the equipment available to gangs throughout the iterations of the game so far without having actually experienced the rules themselves) or aggrieved axe-grinding (ie. a person who is generally displeased with the concept of "no model, no rules" and is trying as hard as they can to make it apply to every GW property, regardless of accuracy).


Sorry I should have been clearer, in 40k and Sigmar GW has followed a policy of writing rules based only on what models are available for several years and I would expect it will be extended to Necromunda.

I'm actually starting to like the idea of no models, no rules. I love converting, I love making my own models from my first army of Zombie IG to my current Arbites meet Space Marines.

But even with boxes of bits and 20+ years of collecting I sometimes struggle to make the unit I want, units that legal in the rules. GW has long let their exuberance in including options outstrip what their model kits can do. Even the flagship Space Marine kits are woefully lacking. A major part of the problem is the move from blisters to kits. In 2000 adding a lascannon to a squad just meant buying a $5 blister. Now it means buying a $50 devastater kit.

So GW making a game where your gang can take tons of weapons that are literally not even made is just bad rules writing.


Necromunda was never about and could never be about having all official models for all possible combinations of equipment supported by the rules. There are close to 400 unique weapons in this game, while most regular fighters can't use all of those, even something as simple as a juve is looking at 10-30 weapon options which could then be combined in 1, 2 or 3 ways. It's like thousands of combos. Go up to champ or leader and you would be looking at millions of combos supported by the rules. GW is not going to make a million different champions or sprues with hundreds of weapons on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Altruizine wrote:

And since that decision they have preserved that aspect in all Necromunda releases, up to and including the most recent ones, which are "codexes" that the playerbase can expect to stay relevant for at least a couple of years.

That's optimistic Some House gangs already had 5 different books describing how to build that specific gang, all 5 in new, unique different ways. None of them have lasted 2 years (yet). Goliath is getting close though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 15:21:54


 
   
Made in eg
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Cairo, Egypt

But we have to ask if a skirmish games benefits from 400+ unique weapons.

I can make a case for a las pistol must be different from an auto pistol by differentiating cost and reliability/ammo, but does the game get better from several version of solid-slug pistols?

What level of granularity is best?

Sure in the real world an Ak-47 is different from an M-16, but does a beer and pretzels game need to make that difference?

And if GW can't make kits that accommodate AK-47s and M-16s (or whatever) shouldn't the rules reflect what's actually available?

Maybe GW's mistake was to give each gang its own distinct weapon design so they can't just make a weapons sprue, they have to make a separate one for each gang. Which means delays, production time, more shelf/warehouse space.

It's a friction that goes back to RT days when GW didn't know if they had a role playing game or wargame so they made it both.

Regardless the models are cool, we've gotten more plastic than I ever thought we would, and I've spent way too much on them. Just the rules vs modeling issue continues to irk me.

 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Well Im not amused with both 40k and AoS expensive multiple rulebooks that lasts less and less time. I totally gave up on updating those game rules so I was looking into necromunda since I thought one book or 2 would cover it... well lets just say im not impressed with the volume of books and they are not cheap either.

Its ok nothing stopping me of just enjoying the modelling side, I guess... but to answer to Kid Kyoto to a certain extent the rules vs modelling can kill the game for me and it has. In this case not because they dont cover every option with a mini but because theres just way way too many rules split into several confusing books.
Lets just say a faction kit costs you 26£ but to play with it you need to spend 35+28... I dont see that as an healthy balance at all specially if you want multi factions.

If rules were not updated so often I wouldn't mind much investing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 16:19:19


   
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Baxx wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

And since that decision they have preserved that aspect in all Necromunda releases, up to and including the most recent ones, which are "codexes" that the playerbase can expect to stay relevant for at least a couple of years.

That's optimistic Some House gangs already had 5 different books describing how to build that specific gang, all 5 in new, unique different ways. None of them have lasted 2 years (yet). Goliath is getting close though.

The release history of Necromunda has been insane, yeah.

But... you're also eliding critical details and exaggerating, aren't you? Like, did you just refer to the 5 page "Gangs of Legend" .pdf as a "book"?

Which ones have had five versions, btw? ("book" or otherwise )
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





The more models I can add to my bits box the better, but while I'm spending all that money on plastic I can't justify paying so much for the rules. I don't get to play very often either so the rules became less important to me, aside from informing/inspiring some modeling choices. I think it would be reasonable for them to include the rules for how to play in the kits, but the background they write could go into fancier books... or the black library. The background is great and all, but I also like to make up my own stories for my gangs, which don't always conform to the trends or themes of the gang they were meant for (I'm using the Delaque rules for a ratskin gang based on the Corvus models). If they want to make it easier to play the game, make the rules free or more accessible. Of course, it wouldn't make them as much money so..... oh well.
   
Made in gb
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Exeter, UK

Three little sprues should mean the box will be cheap though, right? Cheaper than a full gang box? /wishfulthinking
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Three little sprues should mean the box will be cheap though, right? Cheaper than a full gang box? /wishfulthinking
Regular Gang boxes are 10 models, this would be 12, so I can't see it being cheaper.

Or they put in 2, giving you 8, in which case it will be cheaper*.



*NB: Read as "the same price".

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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You think it'll be cheaper? XD

If only tho.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Altruizine wrote:

The release history of Necromunda has been insane, yeah.

But... you're also eliding critical details and exaggerating, aren't you? Like, did you just refer to the 5 page "Gangs of Legend" .pdf as a "book"?

Which ones have had five versions, btw? ("book" or otherwise )

I got 5 actual books explaining how to make the same gang in 5 distinct ways. N17, GW1, N18, House Book, N21.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But we have to ask if a skirmish games benefits from 400+ unique weapons.

No, all the bloat hurts the game. And it's not stopping. The trademark weapons are required: pistol/gun/heavy and las/stub/auto/bolt. Not 14 unique weapon profiles for auto pistol.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 07:11:29


 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







TGG wrote:
The more models I can add to my bits box the better, but while I'm spending all that money on plastic I can't justify paying so much for the rules. I don't get to play very often either so the rules became less important to me, aside from informing/inspiring some modeling choices. I think it would be reasonable for them to include the rules for how to play in the kits, but the background they write could go into fancier books... or the black library. The background is great and all, but I also like to make up my own stories for my gangs, which don't always conform to the trends or themes of the gang they were meant for (I'm using the Delaque rules for a ratskin gang based on the Corvus models). If they want to make it easier to play the game, make the rules free or more accessible. Of course, it wouldn't make them as much money so..... oh well.


Its also not easy at all for new starters to try to figure out what the books are all about and why theres so many of them.
I agree that should be some kind of split of rules from the story background.

So you would have a big book with just the rules for all factions and the sandbox "create your own gang editor"... then another book with all the background of Necromunda and its gangs.

Oh and these books should stay live for 4 or 5 or so years, any updates or added extras to them like faqs should be a downloadable pdf.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 08:44:07


   
Made in us
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But we have to ask if a skirmish games benefits from 400+ unique weapons.

I can make a case for a las pistol must be different from an auto pistol by differentiating cost and reliability/ammo, but does the game get better from several version of solid-slug pistols?

What level of granularity is best?
There is obviously a point where the differences stop being meaningful or distinctive but a game like Necromunda has room for a lot of the finer distinction because of the multi-faceted nature of the game as a whole, where the way the game is played in a community can really shift what's important or how much the distinctiveness matters. At the same time if everyone just uses lasguns and plasma guns and nothing else, granularity doesn't really matter because everything not being used is moot within the context of that community.

Thinking of granularity in relative terms, in 40k even the best necromunda gang are somewhere between basic guardsmen and conscripts, and would generally end up costing something like 1/20th of what that 40k regards as a standard size force for a standard sized game. So when you put a gang under a microscope and give them their own game in broad strokes end up with something with room for 10 to 20 times more granularity.

But that's only a starting point. More practically, I think its less than that, and its in large part a consequence of the game being d6 based. How much worse in lore does a lasgun need to be to drop by a point of strength, or cost or anything else. I think we can look at the lasgun as a good example for and against the current level of granularity. We have a varitey of las-weapons across different gangs, the standard lasgun, the cheaper but other wise standard lasgun of the escher, reclaimed lasguns, and the variety of van saar las weapons. From a mechanistic granularity it something too much, filled with contradictions, inconsistencies, and choices that just don't get used. At the same time from a representational granularity it helps set the character for different factions. I think having the variety of solid slug shooting weapons is much the same. Mechanically it verges on too much but goes to establishing character. But again options that no one ever use is just rule clutter.

The other major source of limits on granularity are credits costs and rarity. What is the smallest increment in rules and how does that then translate to cost and vice versa? Rules that make too small of a difference to alter cost are too granular. In that vein the smallest cost or rarity increment used should further limit granularity; you can say this costs X-pts and that Y-pts, but if you try to hold points or credits to increments of say 5, you're unintentionally placing a limit on granularity. While you could always write distinctive rules for a autogun with a larger magazine as its defining characteristic, giving it a slightly better ammo roll, is that significant enough to raise its cost?-no. While more likely to come up than some of the other situational mechanics in the game, how likely is it to come up? -If it only comes up 1:10 games is that even worth one extra credit let alone 5 or more?

But even with that kind of constraint, you then have to ask what is smallest meaningful cost difference between what two players bring against each other. 40k tried to leverage this by having power level as a parallel system to points, to streamline the game. To consider this a different way, how many extra credits or points could another player get as a handicap before anyone actually notices? -Anything less than this is to a point moot.

But necromunda walks a line, leaning heavily on the narrative aspect of the game, and more alike to an rpg than say 40k. So character and flavor distinctions have a high value to the player, even if it is at the expense of the game mechanics. And this is where you can get into an argument with someone who doesn't think the rules are granular enough because they want to have their ex-PDF bounty hunter to carry a specific pattern of lasgun that can mount an exterminator flamer unit, and has a peg leg they use to skewer enemies when they jump down. So too often the things people think go too far, granularly, are options they aren't using, because they are mostly moot. But these details are a features of the game, where with out this level of granularity verging on excessive the game would lose some of its appeal.

As N17 has gone through these rules cycles where the house gangs have had their rules revised again and again, the game has shifter more and more granular to try and squeeze the new content into a rule set that has clear limits to its meaningful granularity. So if you want simpler you can always roll back the clock and use those older rule sets, adding the newer rules back in more sparingly. Like an rpg, there is no right answer, there is just what you want and how much you're willing to put up with.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Gotta love Lady Credo, WS 3+, armed with a laspistol and "power sabre" (both master-crafted, but that's not relevant). The power sabre is a power sword with a finer distinction of +1 to hit. Which makes her attacks with power sabre hit on 2+, while the laspistol hits on 3+.

Would the game suffer by giving her WS 2+ instead, and simply saying her power sabre works like a power sword? Losing that finer distinction means that one laspistol attack would hit on 2+...

This is just one weapon and not a problem in itself, but when each of 100 characters get the same treatment?!?
   
 
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